New dining options (flex dining) effective October 1, 2019

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Business Class is going away October 1. Since that was in a split club/dinette, I'd say that car is going away. Seems reasonable it will be replaced with a full sleeper lounge. Certainly have plenty of single level sleeper lounge cars available. :D
So there will be a full table (dining) car to serve as the dining car and lounge car exclusively for the single sleeper on this train. Chances of getting a seat will probably be pretty good.
 
As long as Amtrak wants to save money (?) by degrading the First Class value proposition on the eastern long distance trains, why not simply establish a separate level of service that includes the sleeping car room but doesn't include any F&B service? And price it accordingly. I for one can do without a dining car since I can supply my own meal(s) and beverages. The only advantage of the sleeping car room, to me once again, is the privacy and comfort of a flat bed. I'd rather not pay for food that I wouldn't buy, much less eat, even if it was reasonably priced.

I'm surprised that Amtrak doesn't turn to vending machines on those LD trains.
 
As long as Amtrak wants to save money (?) by degrading the First Class value proposition on the eastern long distance trains, why not simply establish a separate level of service that includes the sleeping car room but doesn't include any F&B service? And price it accordingly. I for one can do without a dining car since I can supply my own meal(s) and beverages. The only advantage of the sleeping car room, to me once again, is the privacy and comfort of a flat bed. I'd rather not pay for food that I wouldn't buy, much less eat, even if it was reasonably priced.

I'm surprised that Amtrak doesn't turn to vending machines on those LD trains.

If the objective is to provide hot food, they'd have to supply a bank of Microwaves (and for those that BYOF and want to heat it up), but I recall where that was a safety issue and they wouldn't allow it.
 
When I travel on a 4-5 hour flight in domestic first class I get a hot, plated meal served on a table cloth. I get free snacks (cookies, kind bars, fresh fruit, etc.) and I get as much to drink, achahol or non, again served in glassware.
 
I can't say that for being a forum member for a few months now that I have seen "a good chunk" of people complaining about the prices. I have seen a few folks mention going coach because they can't afford a sleeper, but I don't consider that a complaint.
I do.
 
Last edited:
Last year my sister and I took the Lakeshore Limited after boxed meal "Contemporary Dining" was introduced. We did have a choice of what was in the box, although I don't remember how many choices there were. We also got a complimentary "glass" (actually, plastic to avoid breakage) of wine. We were staying in a roomette. I'm not fussy about food and so I didn't really notice a big difference between the meals in the dining car on the SWC which we also took that same trip and the boxed meals. I would much rather eat boxed meals than having to get off the train in the middle of the night in Kansas to be bustituted to Albuquerque. The latter would probably be a deal-breaker for me as I live in ABQ and go east to visit relatives every summer.
It is not a binary choice between boxed neals east of the Mississippi and a truncated SWC. That is a ludicrous correlation.
Boxed meals did not save the SWC. Ridiculous.
 
Only in our dreams now, alas. Ditto the Coast Starlight's PPCs.
I believe the lamb shank was only offered in one direction - I'm guessing out of LA, since there was a Washington red that went particularly well with it and typically Washington/Oregon wines were served on the northbound. Arrive for the wine-tasting in the afternoon and stay for dinner. Amtrak had it figured out back then.
 
I believe the lamb shank was only offered in one direction - I'm guessing out of LA, since there was a Washington red that went particularly well with it and typically Washington/Oregon wines were served on the northbound. Arrive for the wine-tasting in the afternoon and stay for dinner. Amtrak had it figured out back then.
"..I remember it well!.." Sigh:(
 
I believe the lamb shank was only offered in one direction - I'm guessing out of LA, since there was a Washington red that went particularly well with it and typically Washington/Oregon wines were served on the northbound. Arrive for the wine-tasting in the afternoon and stay for dinner. Amtrak had it figured out back then.

I remember ordering it in both directions. I also remember having it on a few other trains like the Empire Builder back when they were doing the “chef inspired” dinners. Those were the days!
 
I believe the lamb shank was only offered in one direction - I'm guessing out of LA, since there was a Washington red that went particularly well with it and typically Washington/Oregon wines were served on the northbound. Arrive for the wine-tasting in the afternoon and stay for dinner. Amtrak had it figured out back then.

It may have changed over the years, but i specifically remember having the lamb shank in the PPC going northbound in April 2014 and southbound in September 2016.
 
The PPC and Builder used to have a really good pasta dish made with Beechers Cheese (they are in the Pike Place market in Seattle). Was quite good.

In the same time frame they served an excellent Mahi Mahi fillet. The Mahi and the lamb shank from that era were the best entrees I’ve had on any train including VIA and various private cars and dinner trains.
 
A good indication of what might or might not happen to the Star is to watch how it Sleeper fare buckets are trending in the future. If complementary food for Sleeper is coming back then one would expect fare buckets to become similar to the Meteor.

I can't remember on which thread and which poster mentioned it, but someone compared fares between the Meteor and Star for 2 different cities, which were to the north and south of the part where the Meteor and Star routes split(Savannah to somewhere in NC, can't remember where in that state the routes split). And the crazy thing, was that this poster only discovered that the Star was $7 cheaper to ride, than riding on Meteor! IMO it should be a greater fare difference, as Star riders currently as of now don't have a diner. Hopefully with the news the Cardinal is supposedly going to get a diner back once the business class cars no longer run on Card as of October 1st, maybe for all I know the Star will get a diner(prob contemporary dining if I have to guess) back?

The PPC and Builder used to have a really good pasta dish made with Beechers Cheese (they are in the Pike Place market in Seattle). Was quite good.

In the same time frame they served an excellent Mahi Mahi fillet. The Mahi and the lamb shank from that era were the best entrees I’ve had on any train including VIA and various private cars and dinner trains.

Wow, so both Builder and Starlight used to have a Beecher's Cheese pasta served in their dining car? And ditto with a mahi mahi fillet, along with a lamb shank(for the latter at least on Starlight, not sure if Builder ever served this per reports I'm hearing on this board)? I always wish I could've ridden Starlight and Builder, before the dining car cutbacks occurred. Ditto with the Pacific Parlour Car before those were all entirely removed, on Starlight.
 
I remember having the lamb shank on another train, but I can’t remember which one. The Mahi Mahi I had multiple times on the zephyr I know that.

All of the long distance trains with full
Dining car service had rotating chef inspired meals. The lamb shank was one of those along with short ribs, crab cakes, and others that I can’t remember.
 
I believe the lamb shank was only offered in one direction - I'm guessing out of LA, since there was a Washington red that went particularly well with it and typically Washington/Oregon wines were served on the northbound. Arrive for the wine-tasting in the afternoon and stay for dinner. Amtrak had it figured out back then.

It was offered in both directions. The PPC was only stocked from LA for the roundtrip journey according to the LSA so going south, items ran out fast or was already gone before the return trip.
 
Hi, y'all. I'm just so disappointed by this news that I finally took the time to write and send the following letter to Anderson, Gardner, and Coscia yesterday. I don't think it will make any difference, but at least I can feel like I'm doing something.

Dear Mr. Anderson, Mr. Gardner, Mr. Coscia and Amtrak Board of Directors

My name is Coby Potischman. I am a 17-year-old avid rail fan from New York City and a longtime advocate for Amtrak, as well as a member of the Rail Passenger Association. I am incredibly concerned and disheartened by all of the recent cuts to service and amenities, and particularly the decision to switch to “contemporary” boxed meals on all routes east of the Mississippi after October 1. As a longtime customer and passenger, I ask that you please read this through.

My family and I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on Amtrak travel over the past several years, simply because it has been an incredibly enjoyable and unique way to travel. However, in recent years, the cuts and degradations to service have made our decision to take Amtrak, instead of the airlines, more and more difficult to justify.


Inter-city rail in the U.S. will never be able to compete with a plane in regard to speed. The only way for it to compete is for the overall experience and amenities to be superior.

We used to able to check baggage to and from the vast majority of stations. Now, not only are the majority of stations unstaffed, but such routes as the City of New Orleans, Texas Eagle, and Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited, have lost their baggage cars.

Until only a few years ago, on virtually all routes, we could get freshly cooked meals (the Cardinal being the only exception), served on actual glassware and China, with unique selections for each region and direction. Now, the handful of routes that do retain full-service dining cars all serve the exact same menu–quite tedious over the course of a long trip–while the ones without offer an extremely limited selection of low-quality meals, if anything at all.

I won’t even get into the cuts to Amtrak Guest Rewards, retirement of the Pacific Parlour Cars, increase in ticket prices, loss of flowers and snacks in the sleepers, discontinuation of the AAA and Veterans’ discount, reduction and increased restrictions of the Senior discount, and the tightening of the change and cancellation policy. These are smaller things, but they really do add up.

At a certain point, any person who has alternatives such as taking a plane, a car, or a bus, will no longer take Amtrak. Meanwhile, the people who either live in places served exclusively by the train, or who are physically unable to take other forms of transport, will be stuck not traveling at all, or suffering through an increasingly expensive, long and uncomfortable ride on the rails.

For Amtrak to do well, I believe it has to focus on what can make it best. I know that Food & Beverage service is mandated to turn a profit. However, that mandate was not written with the intent that the service itself has to make money; rather, those services are required to result in Amtrak as a whole being more profitable. Dining cars have always been loss leaders. The operation itself loses some amount of money, however, if it gets enough people to ride the train, it ends up paying for itself. Additionally, if need be, more money could simply be allocated from the sleepers to the diners, since the former is not required to turn a profit.

Every year, my family and I take a trip to South Florida to stay with my grandparents. We first took the train (in a Roomette) in 2011, and absolutely loved it. Since then, we have taken the Silver Service in at least one direction, almost every year, even after the Silver Star lost its dining car in 2015. The continued availability of the dining car on the Meteor is what has made it possible for us to continue taking the train for those trips.

Between these rides to Florida, multiple cross country trips, and countless other shorter day and overnight rides, we have spent more than 600 hours in sleepers, and many thousands of dollars on the tickets. And even after experiencing countless rude employees, numerous train cancellations, and even a derailment in Georgia last year, we have continued to ride and advocate for Amtrak.

But as prices increase, the meal service is degraded, checked baggage service becomes less and less available, and so on, justifying these trips has become incredibly difficult. We have tried the boxed meal service on the Lake Shore Limited multiple times, and I can say that if it is implemented on the Silver Meteor, we will no longer be able to take Amtrak to visit my grandparents. I have many friends who previously would take multiple massive cross country trips each year. But without full meal service on any route between Chicago and the East Coast, such trips are no longer feasible for them.

There aren’t just issues for angry railfans who want to keep the status quo at all costs.

These are issues for all the people with dietary restrictions, since limited menus and food prepared ahead of time offer little to no choice of ingredients, and are often extremely high in sugar.

These are issues for people who care about the environment; that don’t want to throw away cardboard boxes, plastic wrappers and bags, and disposable silverware at every meal.

These are issues for the people who can no longer afford their tickets, or who have to travel in coach, where they no longer have access to a dining car at all.

These are issues for people who live in remote towns without any other form of transit, who would see their rail service cut and/or replaced by buses, as you proposed this February.

These are issues for the people who take Amtrak to move, but can no longer bring nearly as many of their belongings due to the loss of checked baggage.

These are issues for the thousands of station employees and OBS staff that work hard to make passengers’ trips much more enjoyable, yet are losing their jobs.


Amtrak was not created with the goal of turning a profit. It was created when the private railroads of the time could NOT turn a profit, and the government saw the need to fund and retain adequate passenger rail service. In fact, Amtrak has explicitly stated in the “National Fact Sheets” of 2016, 2017, and 2018, that “No country in the world operates a passenger rail system without some form of public support for capital costs and/or operating expenses.”

I had been really hoping to take a very long round-trip coast to coast train trip before I head off to college next year. This would be a multi-thousand dollar trip with connections in six different cities (Chicago, Portland, Oregon, Emeryville/San Francisco, Los Angeles, Boston, and Portland, Maine), involving eight nights onboard, and sleeping accommodations the whole way. This would be the ultimate way for me to really see the country and enjoy the National Network while I still have the time to do so, before this new chapter of my life.

Yet as a vegetarian, if more of these routes lose their dining service, it would legitimately be impossible to spend that much time onboard with that sort of meal selection. And as I said earlier, I know many people who are in a similar position. It’s not just about comfort or overall luxury; this sort of service simply isn’t doable for many people and serves to make train travel completely obsolete.

I hope you consider these points in your work to improve Amtrak.

Thank you so much for reading.

- Coby Potischman


Nicely done, Coby. You’ve inspired me to write my own letter. I do appreciate your point you brought up about being a vegetarian as I am one also.
 
I can't remember on which thread and which poster mentioned it, but someone compared fares between the Meteor and Star for 2 different cities, which were to the north and south of the part where the Meteor and Star routes split(Savannah to somewhere in NC, can't remember where in that state the routes split). And the crazy thing, was that this poster only discovered that the Star was $7 cheaper to ride, than riding on Meteor! IMO it should be a greater fare difference, as Star riders currently as of now don't have a diner

I checked to see and I found something interesting - that begs another question ...

The SM and SS both run from Savannah, Ga to Kissimmee, Fl. There is a $20 price difference between the two if riding in a Roomette. Also, the SM stops in Jesup, Ga while the SS does not make that stop - other than that they make all the other same stops and travel the same path.

They also travel the same path between Rocky Mount, NC and New York Penn. On this route, the only difference seems to be that the SM stops in Fredricksburg, VA and the SS does not. However, this time, not only is there a difference in the price between the two trains, there is a price difference in the direction o_O

Again, I used the price if riding in a Roomette.

The SM is the same price in each direction ... but the SS is $28 more when heading north than it is when heading south. That makes the cost difference between the two trains $60 heading north and $88 heading south.

There does seem to be more than a $7 difference ... but why does the upper segment of the SS cost $28 more in one direction than it does in the other while the lower segment of the SS is the same?
 
Nicely done, Coby. You’ve inspired me to write my own letter. I do appreciate your point you brought up about being a vegetarian as I am one also.

Me as well....you can only eat so much microwave pizza and mac n cheese in one week before you get tired of settling. Especially if you’re over 50.
 
I can't remember on which thread and which poster mentioned it, but someone compared fares between the Meteor and Star for 2 different cities, which were to the north and south of the part where the Meteor and Star routes split(Savannah to somewhere in NC, can't remember where in that state the routes split). And the crazy thing, was that this poster only discovered that the Star was $7 cheaper to ride, than riding on Meteor! IMO it should be a greater fare difference, as Star riders currently as of now don't have a diner. Hopefully with the news the Cardinal is supposedly going to get a diner back once the business class cars no longer run on Card as of October 1st, maybe for all I know the Star will get a diner(prob contemporary dining if I have to guess) back?
For all you know is based on faulty reasoning based on incomplete data. ;)

The only meaningful comparison is between same fare buckets. There can always be situations where a specific Meteor is in low fare bucket while the Star on that day is in the highest fare bucket in which case the Star could potentially land up with a higher fare than the Meteor. But that is no indication as to how the fare buckets compares.

Our resident expert who tracks all fare buckets posted in response to my comment about fare bucket changes:

https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/th...effective-october-1.75614/page-11#post-810549

which indicates that at least as of now there is no Contemporary Dining included complementary for Sleepers coming to the Star in the next eleven months.

Cardinal is getting Contemporary Dining. The Star is not, as of the best knowledge that we have today.
 
. . .why does the upper segment of the SS cost $28 more in one direction than it does in the other. . .
Perhaps the fare difference is due to different fare buckets assigned in each direction. FYI (in case you didn't know it) each sleeper accommodation on each train has five different preassigned fares from which the fare-of-the-day can be chosen.
 
Last edited:
First Coby, let me say it is great to have you back. A little youthful exuberance goes a long way. When I took early retirement in the electrical industry, I started teaching courses in alternative energy systems and green building concepts in the electrical industry to the young people entering the trade. Why? It is important for young people to understand and embrace how we got here, and it is just as important for older folks to to understand how younger people see the future. Helps keep me young.
 
It was offered in both directions. The PPC was only stocked from LA for the roundtrip journey according to the LSA so going south, items ran out fast or was already gone before the return trip.
That may indeed have been the case. There was also an Asian beef dish that was pretty good (Asian to describe a blend of flavors that may have been Chinese or Japanese, but not clearly either:)).
 
It is not a binary choice between boxed neals east of the Mississippi and a truncated SWC. That is a ludicrous correlation.
Boxed meals did not save the SWC. Ridiculous.
My point was that boxed meals aren't a deal breaker for me, as they are sadly for you, but a truncated SWC would be a deal breaker for me, not that downgrading meals can save routes.
 
The more I think about this whole contemporary dining the more I am thinking Amtrak should just divorce the meals from the sleeper fare, and offer contemporary dining for coach and sleeper passengers.....The main reason I say this is that because of the limited options, passengers are being forced to pay (no matter how you slice it) for meal whether they like it or not. Course I doubt if Amtrak would really “lower” the sleeper prices that much even with food divorced out.

It could also be a “telling” moment for the Viewliner Diner - how many people would really buy meals from the Diner if an option. Probably would also have to make it so that the Diner is for passengers eating and purchasing food in this car. A person trying to “dine in the diner” shouldn’t be relegated back to their room or coach seat if they can’t find a seat due to Sighteers (or those not eating food). It’ alss not a new space for the conductors to hang out in. They can take up space in the non-used kitchen area of the Viewliner Diner.

Just fill the Viewliner Diner with as many boxed meals as they can and then and sell it out and when it sells out, then everyone goes to the Amtrak Cafe for food. If train runs late - get the food while it lasts and when you can. People may want to eat breakfast and late lunch on the Lake Shore. I don’t know. I think with Amtrak making this dining move for all train east of the Mississippi, just go the whole distance. This will then allow the Viewliner Diner to be used as a lounge for all too.

For the record, if the train has a sleeper, I book sleeper. It is a nice amenity to have the Viewliner Diner for just sleeper car passengers with this contemporary dining (not a fan of the contemporary dining though). There’s more to be desired and some logistical shortcomings that will never be solved, but not going there. I just am surprised that Amtrak is basically “reserving” the VIewliner Diner for sleeping car passengers.

The Cardinal could use a second sleeper year round. This train turn over a LOT of roomettes in the course of its journey. I can’t say bedrooms, since there are only two and a handicap room. But it is a buy train as it meanders from Chicago to Indy to Cincy to Charlottesville to DC to NYC. It could be made daily. It could be made into the overnight NEC Regional train in the interim till the Night Owl or Federal is reinstated. This train has potential even tri-weekly, Amtrak just refuses to let the bird fly right. Eventually when the Viewliner II sleepers are delivered, have to wonder if the Cardinal goes Superliner and the Capitol Limited goes single level once again.
 
Back
Top