New dining options (flex dining) effective October 1, 2019

[crescent-zephyr]

I think some people overestimate the food as part of the experience, especially for a new rider. The occasional rider who has never taken the train will only have a comparison to airline food service and not comparing it to the older train. People who have taken a sleeper trip in Europe before but not in America will compare the fact that there IS some sort of food service to that it not existing in Europe and the fact that the room is totally private. So I don't really think it will have as much of a ridership impact as some people think. I'm sure it will, but I think it is being a bit blown out of proportion here. After all, the most important part of the trip is the actual riding the rails in a sleeper.

Both overnight trips in England offer food and beverage service. I think its comparable to VIA's Ocean, but I can't speak personally, just what I've seen in photos.

 

[Rasputin]

Thank you! I gather when to get up rather depends on how late the train is running but I intent to quiz the Conductor as to the best way to get the best views. I'm rather hoping for a north-facing roomette but I understand it's the luck of the draw and depends on how the train is configured. Did I mention before how excited I am about this trip?
Best wishes
Samantha

Plenty of nice scenery in the early morning on the eastbound Empire Builder esp. east of Libby (except for Flathead tunnel where it is dark and there is no scenery) so it is nice to get up early (train leaves Libby at 5:21 a.m.) and go to the lounge car and enjoy the view. Glacier National Park isn't reached until twenty miles or so after leaving Whitefish which the train will do if on schedule at 7:41 a.m. Glacier National park will be on the north side of the train and a national forest will be on the south side and the views of the national forest aren't bad either.

As others have said get a seat in the lounge car and enjoy the views out both sides of the train.

Hope you have a great trip.

 

[Rail Freak]

Nothing more to add, except "HAVE A GREAT RAIL ADVENTURE" !!!

 

[neroden]

I think some people overestimate the food as part of the experience, especially for a new rider. The occasional rider who has never taken the train will only have a comparison to airline food service and not comparing it to the older train. People who have taken a sleeper trip in Europe before but not in America will compare the fact that there IS some sort of food service to that it not existing in Europe and the fact that the room is totally private. So I don't really think it will have as much of a ridership impact as some people think. I'm sure it will, but I think it is being a bit blown out of proportion here. After all, the most important part of the trip is the actual riding the rails in a sleeper.

The ridership impact is documented, and is already on the order of 10% losses between 2017 and 2019 for the LSL. (And note that the LSL already had degraded food service in 2017 and was already showing reduced ridership as a result!)

 

[Qapla]

The occasional rider who has never taken the train will only have a comparison to airline food service

Hmmm...

I have never been on a plane to have any idea of what the food is actually like. I have also never been to Europe.

So, for me, I would tend to compare the food I "expect" to be comparable to the food I would get at a "brick-and-mortar" place that has "premium prices" - like the cost of a sleeper most definately is.

I know what a Roomette and a Bedroom has to offer ...

I checked

• If I book a train ride from my "home" station to NY this Friday I would have to pay $304 more for a sleeper than coach. If I were to book one in August, I would have to pay $484 more for the sleeper
• If I book a train ride from my "home" station to Chicago this Friday I would have to pay $503 more for a sleeper than coach. If I were to book one in August, I would have to pay $514 more for the sleeper

The place to sleep and the privacy of the ride is not worth that much of an added expense - for me. For that much extra I would expect to get a better meal than I could get from a high-priced TV dinner from Walmart (let alone a bargain one).

This is the same as me expecting a much better meal from Emeril's (or even Outback) than what I would get at McDonalds - for me to spend the difference in cost ... I want a value in product commensurate with the price differential ... and just having a place to sleep is not worth the extra cost if I am given a low-quality, fast-food substitute for a premium price.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I have never been on a plane to have any idea of what the food is actually like.

The food in domestic first class, imho, is much better than the food in contemporary dining, but not quite as good as the best traditional dining entrees like steak and salmon.

By anyone’s standards the food in domestic first class is presented better. Tablecloth, silverware, cloth napkin, ceramic plates, glassware etc.

 

[niemi24s]

The ridership impact is documented, and is already on the order of 10% losses between 2017 and 2019 for the LSL. (And note that the LSL already had degraded food service in 2017 and was already showing reduced ridership as a result!)

But according to this. . . http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/FY19-Year-End-Ridership.pdf . . .ridership for the LSL (with continued degraded food service) was up 5.9% between FY2018 and FY2019!

This brings up the question - how do you really, truly, know the ridership reduction of 14% between FY2017 and FY2018 was due to the food situation?

 

[PRR 60]

But according to this. . . http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/FY19-Year-End-Ridership.pdf . . .ridership for the LSL (with continued degraded food service) was up 5.9% between FY2018 and FY2019!

This brings up the question - how do you really, truly, know the ridership reduction of 14% between FY2017 and FY2018 was due to the food situation?

Lake Shore Limited direct service to New York was suspended for three months in the summer of 2018 due to construction. That could explain some of the ridership drop from FY2017 to 18.

 

[fdaley]

But according to this. . . http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/FY19-Year-End-Ridership.pdf . . .ridership for the LSL (with continued degraded food service) was up 5.9% between FY2018 and FY2019!

This brings up the question - how do you really, truly, know the ridership reduction of 14% between FY2017 and FY2018 was due to the food situation?

The FY2018 number is not a useful number, because the Lake Shore did not run into New York City for three months that summer, which drove ridership down. Also, the switch to "contemporary" food was made just before that, two-thirds of the way through the fiscal year.

The meaningful comparison is between FY17, the last full year of traditional dining service, and FY19, the first full year after the change. For the Lake Shore, ridership in FY17 was 389,000, which was basically unchanged from the previous year's 388,000. For FY19, ridership was 357,000, a decline of 8.2 percent from FY2017.

For the Capitol, ridership went from 231,000 in FY17 to 209,000 in FY19, a decline of 9.5 percent. (Sorry, corrected the earlier version of this post, where I reversed the percentages between the two trains.)

None of the other eastern overnight trains saw as great a decline between the two years, and the Silver trains and Crescent actually saw increased traffic. City of New Orleans was down substantially, but I think maybe its FY19 number includes the period when it became the City of Jackson for an extended stretch.

 

[fdaley]

What would be interesting to know, but which I haven't found yet, is a breakdown of coach vs. sleeper passengers and actual revenue figures for the Lake Shore and Capitol in those years. My suspicion is that you'd find sleeper traffic is down more sharply, and that revenue is as well.

 

[neroden]

But according to this. . . http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/FY19-Year-End-Ridership.pdf . . .ridership for the LSL (with continued degraded food service) was up 5.9% between FY2018 and FY2019!

This brings up the question - how do you really, truly, know the ridership reduction of 14% between FY2017 and FY2018 was due to the food situation?

2018 was super depressed because *the train didn't go to New York City for three months*, during the peak season no less, and that was *widely reported in the news media*. (They did not report when it started going back to NYC, and I believe a lot of people still think it doesn't go to NYC any more.)

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I think some people overestimate the food as part of the experience, especially for a new rider.

I think some people underestimate the expectation of paying first class airfare for a stuffy fiberglass cuboid with dingy carpets and broken controls that struggles to maintain school bus speeds. When something is wrong with an aircraft you tend to experience it for a few hours. When something is wrong with a train it can be a source of annoyance for days on end. Good food can serve as a welcome distraction while bad food can amplify the disappointment.

 

[user 14106]

The other thing you would need to compare is consists and average pricing between FY17 and FY19. If they tinkered with the consists at key times which resulted in steeper average prices that can also drive down ridership. I never had the FY17 diner lite food but it never sounded particularly amazing so there could be other forces at work besides the food. Capitol is more of a direct comparison as it had traditional dining but again you’d also want to compare the consists and prices throughout the year before you could conclude it was the food.

Amtrak doesn’t care about ridership when it comes to these cuts - the key metric is did the loss number go down between FY17 and FY19. Did they lower the cost of carrying passengers on these trains. If they did, Amtrak will consider it a success and would argue those 8.6% of passengers are not worth the additional cost. Obviously whether they should view it that way is the debate we face, but that’s the bottom line of the current management. They also will wait some time with this experiment. If they see a big reactionary drop off to the cut but then a gradual recovery (especially if OTP continues to improve which on the lake shore it has dramatically lately and also if the price is reasonable.) I like amenities as much as anyone but the most important factors on a train like the Lake Shore and Capitol is reliability/OTP and reasonable prices.

 

[ehbowen]

I think some people overestimate the food as part of the experience, especially for a new rider. The occasional rider who has never taken the train will only have a comparison to airline food service and not comparing it to the older train. People who have taken a sleeper trip in Europe before but not in America will compare the fact that there IS some sort of food service to that it not existing in Europe and the fact that the room is totally private. So I don't really think it will have as much of a ridership impact as some people think. I'm sure it will, but I think it is being a bit blown out of proportion here. After all, the most important part of the trip is the actual riding the rails in a sleeper.

No, I don't agree at all. I keep going back to my May 2017 trip from Houston to St. Louis where, at the last minute, I was joined by a friend who was making the same trip. He racks up about 100,000 frequent flyer miles a year internationally and has taken trains in Europe, but this was his very first trip on an overnight long-distance train. When dinner (steak and shrimp) was served, he exclaimed, "The airlines don't feed you this well, even in first class!" After that trip he was more than willing to consider Amtrak as a viable alternative if the trip profile matched. I shudder to think what his response would have been if his first trip had included Contemptible Dining.

 

[Bonser]

2018 was super depressed because *the train didn't go to New York City for three months*, during the peak season no less, and that was *widely reported in the news media*. (They did not report when it started going back to NYC, and I believe a lot of people still think it doesn't go to NYC any more.)

Agree. Once you lose a customer it's hard to get them back.

 

[Barciur]

It's very possible that I am wrong. When I take a sleeper, I just think of it as a "sleeper" rather than "first class". This might be me coming from a European background of being used to shared sleepers etc. Maybe just my expectations are much lower and I underestimate the price difference factor with expectations here. So good to hear opinions from everyone about this.

 

[neroden]

I should note that the LSL had its food sabotaged before 2017 -- it was already facing degraded food service. And the ridership starts declining the year after the first downgrade, and declines each time the food is downgraded further, from what were really quite high numbers back in 2014 when it had *FULL* dining service including fresh-cooked eggs.

People travelling to New York or Chicago expect to get a meal at least comparable to the meals they could get in a cheap diner in NY or Chicago, and Amtrak is not supplying that any more.

 

[me_little_me]

The food in domestic first class, imho, is much better than the food in contemporary dining, but not quite as good as the best traditional dining entrees like steak and salmon.

By anyone’s standards the food in domestic first class is presented better. Tablecloth, silverware, cloth napkin, ceramic plates, glassware etc.

You forgot a few things.

The attendants in First Class come by multiple times to offer more drinks - including more complimentary alcohol.

The attendants in First Class are quick to clean off your table.

Whether you have alcohol or soft drinks, the attendants come by to ask if you want coffee.

The attendants in First Class never "throw" the food at you like some on Amtrak.

The attendants in first class don't get tips along with their pay.

 

[niemi24s]

2018 was super depressed because *the train didn't go to New York City for three months*, during the peak season no less, and that was *widely reported in the news media*. (They did not report when it started going back to NYC, and I believe a lot of people still think it doesn't go to NYC any more.)

Wait a sec.

Back in Post #1704 you stated

". . .the LSL already had degraded food service in 2017 and was already showing reduced ridership as a result!"

But according to data reported by the RPA, LSL ridership actually rose 9% between FY2015 and FY2016 and little a bit more between FY2016 and FY2017 perhaps in spite of that degraded food service! So the tiny ridership increase was due to the degraded food?????

Now you're asserting the documented ridership decline between FY2017 and FY2018 was a result of the closure of NYC!!

My apologies for clicking on the [Show Ignored Content] box.

 

[ehbowen]

It's very possible that I am wrong. When I take a sleeper, I just think of it as a "sleeper" rather than "first class". This might be me coming from a European background of being used to shared sleepers etc. Maybe just my expectations are much lower and I underestimate the price difference factor with expectations here. So good to hear opinions from everyone about this.

But part of Amtrak's marketing efforts for sleeper service...a big part...is the included meals. For a passenger to pay several hundred dollars for a tiny cubicle, and then to find that the "included meals" are crap...that just doesn't work. Now if you unbundled meals from sleeper service and made passengers pay for them separately...you'd soon have an empty "sleeper lounge" and yet another attendant with nothing to do....

 

[Qapla]

I'm sure if they did remove meals from sleepers - they would not reduce the price ... and that would cause even more discontent

 

[Samsbigtrip]

Hope you have a great trip.

Thank you for the great tips!

 

[Rodd]

It's very possible that I am wrong. When I take a sleeper, I just think of it as a "sleeper" rather than "first class". This might be me coming from a European background of being used to shared sleepers etc. Maybe just my expectations are much lower and I underestimate the price difference factor with expectations here. So good to hear opinions from everyone about this.

It is not pleasant but all we have. You are right in your assessment. I take it a lot for convenience but now we have microwaveable meals plus the worm out 25 year old plus “sleepers”. That said, I am excited about the new train sets and sleepers coming out in the next year or two.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

That’s a very interesting point. For all intents and purposes they already did remove the meals. What’s left of monetary value? A three dollar breakfast and a five to eight dollar lunch and dinner. All three meals of the day represent less than a $20 total value.

That’s monetarily, the edibility and enjoyability value are closer to zero.

Back to the question if they did remove the current offerings from the sleeper fare how much would you expect the fare to actually go down?

I'm sure if they did remove meals from sleepers - they would not reduce the price ... and that would cause even more discontent

 

[Rail Freak]

Anyone done a study of the Silver Star?