New flex meal menu (10/06/21)

[user 1215]

Anyone onboard right now who's had a chance to try this?

 

[neroden]

I just spent a long time on the phone with Customer Relations regarding my food allergy and my upcoming trip. I am allergic to garlic and a while ago and very nice and resourceful CR agent performed research and determined that all of the flex meals contained garlic. I have now inquired (of another agent) whether the salmon flex meal contains garlic. I am doubtful whether I will hear back before my trip. It looks like I may need to bring food for 3 days on the train. I did mention that publishing the ingredients list would make passengers happy and also would avoid the necessity of calls to CR to ask about ingredients.

Thank you. The failure to publish ingredients lists has been one of the biggest ongoing problems with Amtrak for a long time, and is a rather serious ADA violation. I hope we can finally get them to start acting like any other restaurant...

 

[Danib62]

The failure to publish ingredients lists has been one of the biggest ongoing problems with Amtrak for a long time, and is a rather serious ADA violation.

[citation needed]

 

[neroden]

Severe allergies are a disability. Reasonable accomodations for such allergies include ingredients lists. Both of these were established in a DOJ settlement in the Lesley University case, and have been confirmed subsequently.

It's not clear to what extent any further accomodations beyond ingredients lists would be needed in a case where the meal purchase was not mandatory -- though note that Amtrak has made the meal purchases mandatory in the sleepers.

Ingredients lists are the very epitome of reasonable accomodations, as they require no significant change to operations. Failure to provide ingredients lists is clear discrimination, as it prohibits a person from eating the food served who *is not actually allergic to the food being served*, just because they are allergic to some other thing which is *not* in the food.

I have also been told by California restauranteurs that ingredients lists are required under California law, though I haven't verified this.

I have also been personally told by an ADA lawyer that anyone who can prove that their allergy is severe and life-threatening or health-threatening, and therefore that it qualifies as a disability, can win an ingredients list case. May not be able to get any other accomodations, but ingredients lists, yes.

 

[Danib62]

The courts have pretty consistently held that food allergies or intolerances are not considered disabilities. See: Phillips v. P.F. Chang’s China Bistro, Inc., 2015 WL 4694049, at *9 (N.D. Cal. Aug. 6, 2015) and Slade v. Hershey Co., 2011 WL 3159164 (M.D.Pa. Jul. 26, 2011).

A settlement is not binding as case law.

Your friend is wrong.

 

[Danib62]

Even under the Lesley you settlement you cite a restaurant can comply by telling a customer what ingredients are in a dish if known which Amtrak will do if you call them up. It does not require them to proactively make ingredient lists available for anyone who wants one.

 

[neroden]

Even under the Lesley you settlement you cite a restaurant can comply by telling a customer what ingredients are in a dish if known

Correct

which Amtrak will do if you call them up.

WRONG.

You've never tried, have you?

 

[Danib62]

Multiple people on this very message board have written that that have been provided this information upon request when calling though some experience lengthy waits while the information is retrieved.

 

[neroden]

The courts have pretty consistently held that food allergies or intolerances are not considered disabilities. See: Phillips v. P.F. Chang’s China Bistro, Inc., 2015 WL 4694049, at *9 (N.D. Cal. Aug. 6, 2015)

Not apposite. Was requesting something different, and was apparently voluntarily dismissed.

and Slade v. Hershey Co., 2011 WL 3159164 (M.D.Pa. Jul. 26, 2011).

Not apposite. Was requesting something different, and was an "essential duties of employment" case. Worse for your argument, the ruling in that very case says "Though a permanent, chronic, and severe allergy may constitute a disability,"...

You don't know your law or your juries. Take an ingredients list case to a jury, and the response is going to be "WTF is wrong with you that you can't provide an ingredients list?"

 

[neroden]

Multiple people on this very message board have written that that have been provided this information upon request when calling though some experience lengthy waits while the information is retrieved.

The fact is, Amtrak has been extraordinarily inconsistent. I can state quite definitely that I can *sometimes* get ingredients lists and *usually* I can't.

I have no idea what's going on in there. It seems like the simplest thing in the world for Amtrak to fix. It should not require a federal case.

 

[pennyk]

Even under the Lesley you settlement you cite a restaurant can comply by telling a customer what ingredients are in a dish if known which Amtrak will do if you call them up. It does not require them to proactively make ingredient lists available for anyone who wants one.

I have tried to get ingredients from Amtrak for over 10 years and have been unable to do so. In years past, the LSAs would have a book that listed the ingredients for certain entrees (pre flex meals). I have not been able to get ingredients of flex meals. A couple of years ago, a CR agent informed me that all the flex meal lunch/dinner entrees contained garlic. I am allergic to garlic and thus am unable to eat the flex meals. I have not been able to determine the ingredients of the new flex meals.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Even under the Lesley you settlement you cite a restaurant can comply by telling a customer what ingredients are in a dish if known which Amtrak will do if you call them up. It does not require them to proactively make ingredient lists available for anyone who wants one.

Yeah... no, Amtrak won't do this...

 

[cocojacoby]

I would think the suppliers should have this info and supply it to Amtrak.

 

[pennyk]

Multiple people on this very message board have written that that have been provided this information upon request when calling though some experience lengthy waits while the information is retrieved.

As stated previously, I have tried to get ingredients for over 10 years. The information was never retrieved by telephone. Unless you have actual experience, I suggest that you not disagree with @neroden who has been trying to get ingredients for quite a while.

 

[Tlcooper44]

I would think the suppliers should have this info and supply it to Amtrak.

I'm sure if an Amtrak attendant searched hard enough, this information could be found.
I've never had success obtaining an ingredients list.

 

[neroden]

The crazy thing is, Amtrak, at some departmental level, *has* the ingredients lists. These items did not fall off the back of a truck. They are not mystery meat. They do not contain "secret sauce". They all come with ingredients list labels and the product vendors all provide ingredients lists sheets when Amtrak orders the food.

It is remarkably bizarre customer disservice that Amtrak cannot simply pass it on. It's also an ADA violation, but it's a really whacko what-are-you-thinking one. It just doesn't come up with other food service providers, because they all just... go get the ingredients lists.

If I may make an analogy: it's like a store where they have a wheelchair access ramp to the routinely-used back door, but whenever anyone with a wheelchair calls, they claim they don't have a wheelchair access ramp and refuse to tell them about the back door. It is practically zero-cost to fix the problem here, and Amtrak management's refusal to do so (despite help from the occasional Amtrak employee -- the frontline people *do* always try to help) is bizarre.

 

[pennyk]

I'm sure if an Amtrak attendant searched hard enough, this information could be found.
I've never had success obtaining an ingredients list.

I do not think the on train attendants have access to the information. However, it can be found. Right after contemporary meals started, an Amtrak employee that I know (who I ran into in the Chicago Lounge) tried to find out ingredients for me. It took a little over an hour but he was able to tell me which contemporary meals contained garlic. I ended up having the children's turkey and cheese sandwich on the CL that evening (which was pretty awful since I do not eat white bread).
The information is there but it is not easily accessible for employees let alone passengers.

 

[Exvalley]

Reasonable accomodations for such allergies include ingredients lists. Both of these were established in a DOJ settlement in the Lesley University case, and have been confirmed subsequently.

I just read through the settlement agreement. It did not require the University to disclose actual ingredient lists. The University had to do a lot of things, but that was not one of them.

 

[neroden]

I just read through the settlement agreement. It did not require the University to disclose actual ingredient lists. The University had to do a lot of things, but that was not one of them.

I stand corrected -- that student actually wanted to be fed.

Ingredients lists are specifically called out as a likely reasonable accomodation in the last Department of Justice guidance document I read. Again, I do not have that one to hand, but can dig it up if necessary. No jury is going to call them an UNreasonable accomodation...

In general, "provide information which your organization already possesses, which is not commercially confidential", has always been considered a reasonable accomodation. For... obvious reasons.

 

[Exvalley]

The Department of Justice issued guidance after the Lesley University agreement came out.

Here is an excerpt:

4. Does the ADA require that all public accommodations that serve food, like restaurants, also serve gluten-free or allergen-free food?
A: No. The ADA does not require that every place of public accommodation that serves food to the public provide gluten-free or allergen-free food. The Lesley Agreement involved a mandatory meal program for a defined group of students. Because its meal plan was mandatory for all students living on campus, the ADA required that the University make reasonable modifications to the plan to accommodate students with celiac disease and other food allergies. This is different than the ADA's obligation for restaurants that serve the general public.

5. What might a restaurant or other similar place of public accommodation need to do to accommodate an individual with celiac disease or other food allergies?
A: A restaurant may have to take some reasonable steps to accommodate individuals with disabilities where it does not result in a fundamental alteration of that restaurant's operations. By way of example only, this may include: 1) answering questions from diners about menu item ingredients, where the ingredients are known, or 2) omitting or substituting certain ingredients upon request if the restaurant normally does this for other customers.

https://www.ada.gov/q&a_lesley_university.htm

 

[me_little_me]

Multiple people on this very message board have written that that have been provided this information upon request when calling though some experience lengthy waits while the information is retrieved.

Once again, Amtrak management has chosen to hide this information when it could so easily be made available. This is consistent with everything else this PUBLICLY OWNED COMPANY (i.e. owned by the people of the United States) has tried to do when it comes to hiding information.

 

[fdaley]

Having a choice of omelette or French toast for breakfast does seem like an improvement. The last time I took any of the flex trains, the only warm options for breakfast were the Jimmy Dean sandwich or instant oatmeal. I stuck to the cold options and found myself hungry about an hour later.

The lunch and dinner selections on this menu seem like new variations on the same failed flex model. I'm assuming this is just an intermediate step before Amtrak's promised upgrade to meal service on the eastern LD trains, so I think I'll wait for that before planning any overnight trips involving these trains. But if I had to take the eastbound Lake Shore, which doesn't offer dinner out of Chicago in any case, perhaps the breakfast would be good enough to power me most of the way back to my home turf at Albany.

 

[Maverickstation]

For those riding any of the eastern LD trains, keep us posted on what you find, as Amtrak has yet to update the Flex Dining Menus on their site.

https://www.amtrak.com/onboard/meals-dining/flexible-dining.html
Ken

 

[PaTrainFan]

While any ugrade to "flex" menus is welcome, chances are this means is the re-inroduction of modified "traditional" dining on Eastern trains is pushed further down the road.

 

[Ryan]

Not necessarily.