New LD Locomotive Order Placed

[VTTrain]

This is a weird picture. The Charger actually looks pretty realistic, but then the first two cars it’s pulling are extremely unrealistic renderings of what seems to be a Surfliner or California Car (the double doors), followed by a bunch of extremely realistic (maybe an actual photo?) Superliners, which for some reason start with a Trans-Dorm. Just an odd choice for a rendering.

It looks like there is locomotive exhaust over the 3rd and 4th cars from the rear.  

 

[west point]

Amtrak's release is kind of ignoring some facts.  No way locos could cover all routes. The need to service the locos with differet fluids will probably limit them at first to just a few routes.  Otherwise a waste of resources.  + deliveries not finished until 2024 would seem to indicate a very phased implementation .  Since Chargers will be in service out of Chicago we can expect them first there.  Would probably dispatch them on the short routes of either Capitol or City of NOL along with regular consists of P-42s . Then quickly onto the Empire Builder for the AC traction thru the snow.

 

[DSS&A]

This Sacramento newspaper article has a Siemens statement that it can build a Charger locomotive in 45 days and 4 locomotives at a time.  Brightline is starting in the news this week that it intends to start construction to connect its service in March 2019 and trains will start running before the end of 2020.  So, there will be more Brightline train equipment built before they start on the Amtrak Charger order.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/news/2018/12/12/siemens-sacramento-factory-receives-735-million.amp.html

 

[Thirdrail7]

For those considering the initial 75 number, I think we have to consider the Single level fleet replacement plan. If you recall, they were considering ordering DMUs and/or Combination D and EMUs. 

 This would obviously eliminate the need for a large number of diesels. I suppose they are waiting to see how that works out before committing to more diesels.

 

[Amtrak706]

The rendering appears to be a photo of an LD train with the two P42s and baggage car photoshopped out and replaced with the single Charger and two stand-in Surfliner looking cars (most likely just the quickest thing whoever made this was able to cobble together). This would explain the diesel exhaust being where it is and why the third car is a trans dorm.

I also wouldn’t read too much into the consist. Most likely the reason there is no baggage car and only one Charger is that it simply looks cleaner. AC might have better tractive effort at slower speeds but the thing that matters for passenger service is horsepower, and the Charger only has a couple hundred more than the P42.

If you read the press release again, you might see where they mentioned that this is only a base order with options available for more units.

TL;DR everybody calm down.

PS: check out the road number. Are the stored toasters still on the active roster? They might need to be renumbered like the HHPs were.

 

[MattW]

How many units are needed for non-state Corridor routes? Basically the shuttles, NER (Mass and VA), Carolinian, Pennsyvlvanian...am I missing any? (technically the latter are state corridor routes, but they largely use P42s/P40s from the national pool)

 

[keelhauled]

Meanwhile, apparently MNRR has for the moment shelved working on their replacement order for P32ACDMs, until some unspecified time.

As it happens, they have just issued a new RFP for dual modes.  Hopefully we will see some progress made public next year.

 

[F900ElCapitan]

As it happens, they have just issued a new RFP for dual modes.  Hopefully we will see some progress made public next year.

And how long did the FL9’s run??

 

[railiner]

Here's an article from Trains....http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/10/03-connecticut-sells-its-last-fl9-locomotives

 

[Ryan]

The rendering appears to be a photo of an LD train with the two P42s and baggage car photoshopped out and replaced with the single Charger and two stand-in Surfliner looking cars (most likely just the quickest thing whoever made this was able to cobble together). This would explain the diesel exhaust being where it is and why the third car is a trans dorm.

I also wouldn’t read too much into the consist. Most likely the reason there is no baggage car and only one Charger is that it simply looks cleaner. AC might have better tractive effort at slower speeds but the thing that matters for passenger service is horsepower, and the Charger only has a couple hundred more than the P42.

Nailed it.  100% correct.  Someone with skill can probably even find the base photo this was derived from.

 

[Ryan]

Oh hey, look what I found!  



https://www.flickr.com/photos/100814870@N06/36684074375/

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Clearly more than 75 are needed. But the press release names specific trains on which they are targeted for use. I am sure they are not going to decommission 250 P42s soon after receiving 75 Chargers :lol:

We have to see the actual order to see how many options remain unused by this order. Clearly this is not the last final time that Amtrak will order diesel locomotives for long distance trains, no matter how much some may wish that that is the case so that they can be proved right about discontinuance of LD trains. :lol:

Do hope your right.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

This should be a positive development for almost everyone.  Too bad the first page that greats the reader is full of sophomoric dogpile trolling.

 

[Amtrak706]

Oh hey, look what I found!  



https://www.flickr.com/photos/100814870@N06/36684074375/

Looks like they just kinda stole it from this guy on Flickr too. I’d give them the benefit of the doubt and say they got permission, but this is Amtrak we’re talking about. Of course they did it the dumb way.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

It has the owner's watermark in the lower right corner and the relative cost of a non-exclusive license for a photo like this is minimal.  There is a less than 1% chance they simply lifted, altered, and republished this without any permission whatsoever.  Most of the time if there is a dispute in a situation like this it's due to a non-owning/non-controlling entity being paid by mistake.

 

[BCL]

If GE was interested in the Passenger game still I think we would have heard something out of them. But GE is also in the process of rebuilding DC units to AC Propulsion for NS and Other railroads as well. 

I wasn't sure what they (or the new company) was interested in doing.  However, I'm thinking that even if they're not interested in new passenger locomotives, dropping in a new powerplant isn't much different than what they're already doing with their freight business.  Is there someone else who might be able to accept the powerplant and do the work?

 

[NSC1109]

I don’t think I’m the only person that’s disappointed in the renderings. Judging from what’s been rolling out from Elyria, it seemed like Amtrak was moving back to Phase III for the “Amtrak America” long distance stuff. 

It’s a pet peeve of mine, but not having a standardized fleet (same colors, etc) just doesn’t look good. 

 

[Amtrak706]

I don’t think I’m the only person that’s disappointed in the renderings. Judging from what’s been rolling out from Elyria, it seemed like Amtrak was moving back to Phase III for the “Amtrak America” long distance stuff. 

It’s a pet peeve of mine, but not having a standardized fleet (same colors, etc) just doesn’t look good. 

You expected competence?

 

[cocojacoby]

I don’t think I’m the only person that’s disappointed in the renderings. Judging from what’s been rolling out from Elyria, it seemed like Amtrak was moving back to Phase III for the “Amtrak America” long distance stuff. 

It’s a pet peeve of mine, but not having a standardized fleet (same colors, etc) just doesn’t look good. 

I actually like Phase III.  But I agree that everything should the same.  The mismatching bugs me too.  I think the Amtrak Heritage design in Phase III looks much better than the proposed design.

Also, on this recent order, it would be cool if Amtrak could get Siemens to throw in the aerodynamic noses!  The Charger looks much better with that front.

 

[me_little_me]

This order suggests a commitment to long distance routes, which is good news.

As a passenger, will I notice a difference?  (e.g. acceleration, etc.)

Yeah! As much commitment as buying new diners was to providing fresh, hot food was on all the routes they are used on!

With those new engines, Amtrak can make them look like really cool buses. :giggle:

 

[jis]

Do hope your right.

It looks like they might have exercised 75 out of the options that were part of the states Charger order. IIRC there were 150+ options associated with that order, so they still have some ways to go before they run out of options. That is if they used the options and did not create a completely new order. There has also been some mention of options associated with this order, so admittedly I am a bit confused, and await more concrete information.

As Thirdrail mentioned, if they choose to go for EMU/DEMU, which I suspect will come more in the form of top and tail powered sting of single level cars, possibly partly articulated, like the California sets (this will allow absorption of the existing ACS-64s seamlessly), then the need for self standing LD diesels will be substantially reduced. So we will just have to wait for the other shoe to drop on the single level car replacement decision.

 

[cpotisch]

Here's an article from Trains....http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/10/03-connecticut-sells-its-last-fl9-locomotives

Fun fact, and I swear this is completely true: Over the summer, 1@Seaboard92[/USER] was actually helping me look into those listings, with the idea that I could buy one and lease it out to a shortline railroad or tourist railroad. The starting bid was only $100, and he expected them to go for something along the lines of $900, so we figured it was worth a look. Unfortunately, I ran out of time, and the locos sold for literally 80 times what we expected. Lesson learned there. 

 

[neroden]

So your saying 75 locomotives cover all the long distance trains?  Never did the math myself.

I actually did the math.  It's very curious.  If you put one locomotive on each train, 75 *should* cover all the so-called long-distance trains (even with a daily Cardinal and Sunset).

The question is how many of the trains need more than one locomotive.  The Chargers have different specs from the Genesis engines, so this is not a question with an obvious answer at all.

Does anyone have a better idea of where two locomotives will be required?  There are three separate sources of this requirement:

-- long trains combined with high HEP needs meaning that a second loco is needed to meet the acceleration profile

-- steep grades (such as going from Denver west on the California Zephyr) requiring a second loco to accelerate and maintain speed

-- host railroads demanding a second locomotive in case of locomotive failure en route

I really don't know the specific situation with regard to these factors on ANY of the lines. If someone knows more, I'd love the information.  I particularly know nothing about host railroad demands.

In terms of technical requirements, I believe the following trains have run with one Genesis locomotive with no problems in the past:

-- Lake Shore Limited

-- Capitol Limited

-- Cardinal

-- Silver Star

-- Silver Meteor

-- Crescent

-- California Zephyr from Chicago to Denver

(Most of these routes are pretty flat, while the Cardinal and Capitol Limited pull short trains and the mountain tracks have low speed limits which don't tax the locomotives so much)

I believe the following trains still run with one locomotive routinely:

-- City of New Orleans

-- Texas Eagle

(These are both flat routes AND short trains)

Is it possible that all the trains could run with one Charger locomotive?  I would expect a second one to be needed at least on the following bits:

-- California Zephyr up the Front Range from Denver to Salt Lake, and across the Sierras from Sacramento to Reno

-- Coast Starlight through the Cascades

-- Southwest Chief over Raton Pass

But I don't really know.

The Empire Builder crosses the Rockies with one locomotive for each section (Portland and Seattle), so I guess it probably would be OK with one locomotive for the whole flat part of the route if it has enough power for HEP and for accelerating to speed.

 

[neroden]

Larger fuel tanks is the primary additional thing I believe.

The 75 number most likely has to do with how much money is available at this time for such.

It's also a nice round half of the number of "long distance" (large fuel tank) locomotives available in the option on the existing contract which delivered the Chargers to the state. (Amtrak has options to order 150 "long distance" locos on that contract; there are also some unused options for "corridor" locos.)

This may have had something to do with the terms of the option; they may have had to commit to part of it by the end of the year to keep the option.  That's pure speculation, mind you.

 

[neroden]

Looks like Amtrak has decided  not to go the rebuild P42s route, with this order. I doubt that they will both order Chargers and rebuild P42s

Thank goodness.  With the Tier 4 requirements, (a) rebuilding looks like an attempt to evade the emissions requirements, or (b) it's really expensive.  In addition, the GE engines are overweight compared to the Chargers (1671 kg) and a Tier 4 retrofit would add more weight.  And it would still leave all the other mechanical components 20 years old or more, the extremely obsolete DC traction motors, etc.  Anderson, being from the airlines, does understand the problems with running antique equipment.

I think Amtrak is hoping to prove out the reliability of the Chargers sufficiently to convince the host railroads to drop the requirement for an extra locomotive in case of breakdowns. 

If the AC traction motors have better tractive effort and allow one locomotive to be used on routes which previously required two for technical reasons related to acceleration -- as two of our forum members have claimed -- even better.