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In the pre-Amtrak days, the Western Railroads like the Santa Fe and Union Pacific offered a prepaid meal ticket. For example in 1970, a meal ticket on the Santa Fe from Chicago to Los Angeles was $20. On the Super Chief, that included 5 meals which were 2 dinners, 2 breakfasts and 1 lunch. You could chose just about anything on the menu, but it did not include alcholic beverages. Sleeping Car or Coach passengers could purchase the meal ticket. The Super Chief was all sleeping car and had a seperate dining car even when it was combined with the all coach El Capitain. The Super Chief has a more upscale menu in the dining car and passengers paid an "extra" fare. The meal tickets were convenient because it wasn't necessary to carry extra cash. You did need to tip for the normal cost of the meal and the service on all Santa Fe dining cars was superb so you wanted to tip well for the excellant service.
 
Now, the meal ticket is an interesting idea. If Amtrak eliminated "walk ins", I wonder if that would help or hurt their costs vs revenue? Basically, it would eliminate the need for the dining car attendants to collect any cash, and therefore, eliminate any of them having to continue to "wait" on a table after the passenger's meal is done (ie, less payroll costs). Also, with tickets, Amtrak would know exactly how many meals would need to be loaded onto each train, ahead of time (ie, less food leftovers/ waste).

I guess passengers would have the opportunity to purchase a meal ticket when they purchase their seat ticket.
 
In reference to having to buy your meals pre amtrak in the sleepers, yes that was true! I know I am not totally senile but in comparison, even though eveything has gone up, the prices that were charged for a room or the dinner for that matter were much more within the grasp of everyday people. Now to take a sleeper you nearly have to take out a loan, or save for a long time. I wish I had my old tickets which I threw out some years ago thinking I would never need them, but I can distinctly recall how when comparing the charge for a coach seat to a pullman, the pullman was a small percentage more. So everyday people who wanted to step up to a bit more comfort onboard could do so. Yes I do it now, but the toll on the budget is much different as it is no doubt for many. Only those who have a lot of expendable cash can just travel all over at sleeper prices today. And maybe that is the way it should be. Still for a person who can't or won't fly and needs to make a long distance trip, the cost can be quite a jolt. Most of that stems from congress insisting that amtrak do what none of the other forms of transportation do, pay its own way if possible. To me it rather contradicts the whole idea of providing usable rail transportation. People are flocking to Amtrak now because the rates at least in coach are for the most part reasonable. Somewhere along the line the sleeper passenger got the short end of the stick.
The problem really is the number of sleeping compartments Amtrak has in its fleet vs the number of coach seats. Given the failure to buy more sleeping cars, the only options are to either raise the prices of the sleeping cars to the point where the demand at the prices Amtrak chooses roughly meets the supply, or make it impossible to get a sleeper without reserving way in advance. And I think Amtrak is still operating under legislation that says it's supposed to be trying to make money, which means it has to take the former approach.

For the most recent trip I booked, it also looked like going airline coach instead of Amtrak roomette might have only saved me something very roughly around 25% of the cost of the trip, though the airline probably would have gotten me to a place about an hour drive from my actual destination, whereas with Amtrak I'm going to be about 2-3 hours from my actual destination (though I also could spend an extra 10-12 hours, mostly waiting in Chicago, if I wanted Amtrak to get me to less than a half hour from my actual destination).

If we were to decide that our national priorities favored reducing foreign oil dependency and/or our carbon footprint over worrying quite so much about infrastructure and operating costs, and if we had electrified trains on routes where sleepers made sense (#66/#67 sort of counts, except there aren't sleepers currently on that route), and some alternative to using coal to generate electricity if carbon footprint was the focus, then there would probably be a very good argument for making sure that sleepers were priced competitively with coach airline tickets. I'm not at all convinced that sleepers on diesel trains use any less oil per passenger mile than flying coach on an airplane; but if sleepers could be powered by the wind and airplanes were stuck burning Jet-A, the sleepers would be good for the environment and good for our trade balance, even if those sleepers were built by a foreign company (but our congresspeople are probably busy making sure we don't spend our dollars on foreign built railcars, and thus we'll be spending what may turn out to be significantly more dollars on foreign oil).
 
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Here are some interesting statistics I did very quickly. A page from the 1949 PRR timetable showing fares and rooms between NYP and CHI.

1949-costs.jpg
 
Now, the meal ticket is an interesting idea. If Amtrak eliminated "walk ins", I wonder if that would help or hurt their costs vs revenue? Basically, it would eliminate the need for the dining car attendants to collect any cash, and therefore, eliminate any of them having to continue to "wait" on a table after the passenger's meal is done (ie, less payroll costs). Also, with tickets, Amtrak would know exactly how many meals would need to be loaded onto each train, ahead of time (ie, less food leftovers/ waste).
I guess passengers would have the opportunity to purchase a meal ticket when they purchase their seat ticket.
In pre Amtrak days, when meal tickets were sold to either sleeping car or coach passengers, they were not mandatory and anyone could use the dining cars and pay cash if they wanted. The meal tickets were really beneficial on beginning to end trips such as Chicago to California or Texas. They would not sell them to passengers that were going from Chicago to Kansas City.
 
The CPI (Comsumer Price Index) of $47.20 in 1949 compared to 2008 is $410.34 - That's what the roomette is 1949 would cost in today's dollar and means would be extra.
A quick check, one-way roomette between NYP and CHI, on the Cardinal, is $434.00.
 
The CPI (Comsumer Price Index) of $47.20 in 1949 compared to 2008 is $410.34 - That's what the roomette is 1949 would cost in today's dollar and means would be extra.
A quick check, one-way roomette between NYP and CHI, on the Cardinal, is $434.00.

And that's not even the high bucket price of $571.00!!

I was using the low bucket in the example.
 
Here are some interesting statistics I did very quickly. A page from the 1949 PRR timetable showing fares and rooms between NYP and CHI.
1949-costs.jpg

Thanks for posting that fare schedule. I have a couple thoughts on it. Yes I did recall right in one sense. A sleeping car "step up" would cost the passenger about half more than the coach fare. Maybe the coach fares were too high? I don't recall thinking that however because there is a real difference in the way that comes down now.

First your dealing with bucket fares. In 1949 or till Amtrak, when you decided to take a trip that indeed was the price and you knew if there were a room, and usually there were since they were running three to five sleepers many times, that would be the cost and that was it. Now however yes you might get the roomette for 257 on a lucky day. That however is 3.5 times higher than the cost of a 80.00 coach ticket. So indeed the fares in sleepers are higher in real comparison. Some days the roomette is much higher. So for those who might need to travel for an emergency or other need, they get it socked to them. Something that didn't happen in the old system.

Right now the fare is when purchased in advance some time, set at 80.00. The bedroom can cost 475.00 to 712.00.

But it doesn't end there. Worse yet, the coach fare for the same trip can cost 106.00. The cost of a Deluxe Room for that date came in at 830.00. Nearly 8 times the cost of coach. By 1949 standards the room would have cost about 53.00. I would say that proves that rooms are much higher in real terms today than before. Actually 16 times higher!
 
However, they also charged you for meals, and from what I've seen of menus, their prices were in the highway robbery class.
 
However, they also charged you for meals, and from what I've seen of menus, their prices were in the highway robbery class.
The meals that private railroads charged in Dining Cars were very reasonable and in line with fine restaurants of the era. The food and service was superior to anything Amtrak has offered since the the first few years when Amtrak Dining cars were similar to private railroad operation. For many years private railroads used their Dining Cars to attract loyal customers that travel that railroad all the time. Each railroad had specialties the were unique to their Dining Cars. It made Dinner in the Diner a special occassion and getting your destinations a great experience.
 
However, they also charged you for meals, and from what I've seen of menus, their prices were in the highway robbery class.

Actually they were quite reasonable by today standards. In the early 60's the St. Louis Post Dispatch did an article on the Kings Dinner on the Panama Limited. For about 9.00 your could get a six course meal complete with the finest steak and desert, I believe including a before dinner beverage. We actually purchased it once before they discontinued the train. And of course everything was made up fresh. That was the highest thing on the menu so not a great deal. The real difference is that when they sold you a meal on a good diner, which all were not, you at least could depend on getting very tasty and fresh food, whereas today they charge a lot of money for cold and not too good a quality food, that is already prepared in most cases. Plus you were served with fine china and silver not plastic, real flowers and superb surroundings. Real tables and chairs, mirrored or etched glass walls and panels, decorative lighting. No comparison to todays spartan version.
 
However, they also charged you for meals, and from what I've seen of menus, their prices were in the highway robbery class.

Actually they were quite reasonable by today standards. In the early 60's the St. Louis Post Dispatch did an article on the Kings Dinner on the Panama Limited. For about 9.00 your could get a six course meal complete with the finest steak and desert, I believe including a before dinner beverage. We actually purchased it once before they discontinued the train. And of course everything was made up fresh. That was the highest thing on the menu so not a great deal. The real difference is that when they sold you a meal on a good diner, which all were not, you at least could depend on getting very tasty and fresh food, whereas today they charge a lot of money for cold and not too good a quality food, that is already prepared in most cases. Plus you were served with fine china and silver not plastic, real flowers and superb surroundings. Real tables and chairs, mirrored or etched glass walls and panels, decorative lighting. No comparison to todays spartan version.

Larry,I never had that meal myself but I think it also included lobster..I think you got some kind of badge to wear if you did order it and finished most of it.
 
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Bill,

More than likely in its hey day that was the case.. When we ordered it it was past the point where service on the Panama had begun to decline and although they still offered it, it was not quite as fancy as when it was a status symbol of the chef on board. As a matter a fact, I recall the waiter asking if we really wanted that dinner and if we could afford it! I am not sure where that came from, I was quite young in those days but my grandfather always wore a suit and tie when ever we traveled by train. Perhaps it was more of a dinner that couples celebrating might have purchased? I had read about it and so we decided to try it. I rode that train numerous times but that was the only occasion when we ordered that meal.
 
I'm not sure if this is the correct place for this thought, but I have to throw it somewhere. Why can't a new route come back through southwestern Montana? The only passenger railways are through northern Montana which are much less populated, though they lack the main interstate. A route paralleling the interstate (I-90) would pass through the densest parts of Montana; Billings, Bozeman, Butte, Missoula. I know that plenty of people would take the train from Bozeman to Missoula or vice versa for weekend trips. I also know that a growing portion of Montana universities are out-of-state students that travel home for holidays such as Thanksgiving and Christmas. If there were a passenger railway for this route, I'd almost guarantee that at least around these holidays the train would be near-filled. These times there is also often multiple feet of snow with layers of ice on roads that prevent people from wanting to drive but still wanting to travel between these cities. It seems like suck a waste to have a fuel-efficient mode of transportation and then not be able to use it where it is extremely needed and wanted. Any answers would be appreciated.

Thanks!
 
I'm not sure if this is the correct place for this thought, but I have to throw it somewhere. Why can't a new route come back through southwestern Montana? The only passenger railways are through northern Montana which are much less populated, though they lack the main interstate. A route paralleling the interstate (I-90) would pass through the densest parts of Montana; Billings, Bozeman, Butte, Missoula.
Here is a thread that talks about that very route. There is a proposal for one, and the thread has a link to an article.

It would be a great route to have.
 
I'm not sure if this is the correct place for this thought, but I have to throw it somewhere. Why can't a new route come back through southwestern Montana? The only passenger railways are through northern Montana which are much less populated, though they lack the main interstate. A route paralleling the interstate (I-90) would pass through the densest parts of Montana; Billings, Bozeman, Butte, Missoula. I know that plenty of people would take the train from Bozeman to Missoula or vice versa for weekend trips. I also know that a growing portion of Montana universities are out-of-state students that travel home for holidays such as Thanksgiving and Christmas. If there were a passenger railway for this route, I'd almost guarantee that at least around these holidays the train would be near-filled. These times there is also often multiple feet of snow with layers of ice on roads that prevent people from wanting to drive but still wanting to travel between these cities. It seems like suck a waste to have a fuel-efficient mode of transportation and then not be able to use it where it is extremely needed and wanted. Any answers would be appreciated.
Thanks!
Are there tracks that are in decent condition and yet not saturated with freight along whatever route would be used?

The list of primary census areas indicates that the greater Billings area has a population of roughly 150,000. Missouli has roughly 105,000, Bozeman roughly 87,000, Butte 32,000. I think that ought to put them rather far down on the list for getting federal funding for new passenger track; there are an awful lot of city pairs with 1.5 million or more people in each city in the pair that could be within a three hour train trip of each other if only Congress would choose to spend the money building high speed track. There are also an awful lot of cities with 1 million or more people that would benefit from better intracity transportation, which would probably be a much less capital intensive way to reduce oil consumption than bringing more intercity service to Montana.
 
Here is a thread that talks about that very route. There is a proposal for one, and the thread has a link to an article.
It would be a great route to have.
And the article that thread links to says there have been several studies, but doesn't state what the running time would be if nothing is done to upgrade the tracks.

A conventional speed train basically just requires track, a diesel locomotive (of which Amtrak has an excessively large supply of spares), some coach cars (Amtrak has some spares that need refurbishing), stations of some sort (a concrete platform might be adequate, but it's not great for waiting for a train in the winter), and someone to pay the bill for the operating losses. Billings to Missoula is almost 5 hours by Interstate highway, and the train will probably be even slower; that means a cafe car would be nice to have, but Amtrak probably doesn't have spares of those.

Does that route connect to the Empire Builder route at all? One of the things that's good to have in a national system is enough interconnections that you can board a train at any Amtrak station, and come up with some route consisting entirely of Amtrak trains that will get you from there to any other Amtrak train station. (The current system doesn't quite work that way, because getting between the Downeaster and the rest of the Amtrak system requires taking the MBTA Orange Line, but that's the only current gap I'm aware of.)
 
If we were to add this route to the national network, I recommend that this take the MRL trough the "Southern Tier" of MT, and act as a second frequency of service between CHI and Williston, ND, and between Sandpoint, ID and the west coast.

Here is a thread that talks about that very route. There is a proposal for one, and the thread has a link to an article.
It would be a great route to have.
And the article that thread links to says there have been several studies, but doesn't state what the running time would be if nothing is done to upgrade the tracks.

A conventional speed train basically just requires track, a diesel locomotive (of which Amtrak has an excessively large supply of spares), some coach cars (Amtrak has some spares that need refurbishing), stations of some sort (a concrete platform might be adequate, but it's not great for waiting for a train in the winter), and someone to pay the bill for the operating losses. Billings to Missoula is almost 5 hours by Interstate highway, and the train will probably be even slower; that means a cafe car would be nice to have, but Amtrak probably doesn't have spares of those.

Does that route connect to the Empire Builder route at all? One of the things that's good to have in a national system is enough interconnections that you can board a train at any Amtrak station, and come up with some route consisting entirely of Amtrak trains that will get you from there to any other Amtrak train station. (The current system doesn't quite work that way, because getting between the Downeaster and the rest of the Amtrak system requires taking the MBTA Orange Line, but that's the only current gap I'm aware of.)
 
I agree very much that St. Louis and other points in the Midwest need cross-connecting service. The old National Limited and even the River Cities provided some such connection. One rather inexpensive and more readily accomplishable thing that could really help Western travelers is for Western trains to connect the same day at Chicago. Currently, departing Western trains leave before arrival of other Western trains. The current arrangement makes what could otherwise be a mere two-day or three-night North-South trip on AMTRAK trains in the West a three-day or potentially four-night trip at best because of the currently necessary, approximately 24-hour layover between non-overlapping trains at Chicago.

Congestion might be cited as a reason against same-day connections. However, if local commuter trains are the excuse, my contention is that AMTRAK trains should be locally and regionally usable as national commuter trains themselves—only with transcontinental reach! All conventional-speed AMTRAK trains should make all stops—at least as flag stops—as Inter-corridor Locals. Future (hopefully near future) high-speed (mostly 90-110 mph “Inter-corridor” and potentially 150-225 mph Transcontinental) service should be the new limited-stop Specials or “Expresses”.

All-stop Locals may be criticized as being “too slow’ for through service. In reality, the time should not be that much more. It’s the time of day of departure (such as after usual work hours for most) and arrival (before usual work hours for most) that is generally more important to passengers than how few hours less a train could arrive—and that, potentially, at a less usable time. Disciplined railroading should limit passenger stops to less than five minutes. Only service stops should be potentially longer, as scheduled. Generally, trains should only have as much dwell time at a station as they have in arriving earlier than their timetable departure time. If they’re late (but still on their time—up to halfway until the time the next train, freight or passenger, is due) a stop should only be for as long as passengers can be deboarded and boarded safely (not necessarily seated; that can occur down the track). If they’re going to be an extra on another train’s time (time “slots” are tantamount to timetable-scheduled train times), they need to follow that regular train (which would probably be a freight) as its last section or follow the next scheduled regular train having extra time available for following sections. There is a maximum capacity at which a single railroad track can operate. That includes lengths of trains. That’s basic railroading by simple paper timetable and it does work—as well as any computer program is going to work, and continue working when the largely unnecessary high-tech apparati has failed, only perhaps a little more slowly and safely. Anything other than that, such as running everything extra on each other’s times, is delaying to the schedules of other traffic and is an attempt at potentially hazardous and ultimately unattainable expedience as with driving and flying.

In making new routes possible, I too am “irritated” by the totally lopsided transportation priorities we have. Rail is by far the most efficient form of heavy overland transportation in so many ways. Yet, for the sake of perceived expedience, this culture has all but completely sold out to driving and flying. That culture is based on the lack of knowledge of transportation realities of “passengers in drivers’ seats” seeking unrealistically expedient transportation. Their majority encouragement of politicians to tax all of us to artificially fund such a system enables the wasteful and economically exploitative dominant driving and flying culture to exist.

I certainly think that the highways and airways should only survive on the revenues of their users. If train routes are to be shut down because they don’t earn their own way (a concept that shows a lack of knowledge of the nature of the mobile and complimentary interconnecting system of transportation routes) then so should roads or air routes be shut down that under-perform—a recipe for transportation collapse from a lack of connectivity.

In no way should onboard dining service be eliminated from passenger trains. Onboard dining service is essential to rail passenger service, especially overnight service that is so vitally the key to the usability of passenger trains by the traveling public. Potentially, combination kitchen-roomette sleeping cars (not dissimilar to old “hotel” cars?) could be configured to provide the current number of roomettes along with both separate café and kitchen compartments. The café compartment could sell current lounge car fare (even possibly more of it and with more selections) and the kitchen compartment could be the same as is currently on board dining cars. Only table seating is eliminated. Dining would be at coach or sleeping car compartment seats (all having the fold-down tables). Thus, privately enjoyed yet fully onboard-prepared meals, made to order, could be had on all through trains. Merely not having the kitchen open on such a car used for business first class for a local (commuter) train is an option. Most laudable for labor concerns: all the dining car staffs could be retained—including importantly the chefs—on board all through trains (as they should be retained with any arrangement—staffs should not be eliminated with the elimination of separate dining and lounge cars, perhaps only re-assigned to more trains on more routes). Only the separate dining and lounge car expenses would be eliminated. Accommodation is to the passenger train what potentially break-neck speed is to flying—and the driving habits of many.

It seems bizarre (and is perhaps revealing) that an apparent plea to entitlement has often been offered as the only available objection to the suggestion of merely charging the cost of the food for meals on trains. As I’ve pointed out, there is an argument for offering such a relatively insignificant “freebie” as free meals to passengers as an added value in riding the trains. Yet, in a climate of deficits requiring tax subsidy to rescue AMTRAK from insolvency, I think the recipients of all AMTRAK services, including that of separate baggage cars, should pay for those services. Rail is so inherently efficient, if operated correctly, that its services are affordable to its users if those services are efficiently and usably provided.

Rail freight shippers have to pay for the service they receive. They are also potentially paying for any service passengers are receiving for which the passengers do not pay. Passengers and freight are both users of efficient and economical rail service and should both pay their way, as should users of the arguably inefficient and uneconomical highways and airways, which should also have no subsidy from those who do not use them. Otherwise, there certainly is a good argument for general tax subsidized rail service, and everything else for that matter. There is, however, no incentive to provide good service, or anything else, if funding is guaranteed and the payer has no choice but to pay as with taxes. On the other hand, to retain payment for something not timely rendered in return could be treated as fraud.
 
Thanks for the link to the new forum and article. I have yet to meet someone who wouldn't be willing to take the train if they could to get between Missoula and Bozeman at least. Many people wouldn't use it as a daily commute, but more as a way to get between the main cities where students are from, as well as linking up to get out of state students home. Even with the smaller size of these cities, as mentioned earlier, many people would use railways since driving on ice and/or feet of snow and/or whiteout conditions for 5 months out of the year (my estimate from the last four years at least). Thanks again for the point in the right direction!
 
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