New Support for Gulf States service resumption

[William]

I certainly think there would some demand for this eastbound service. I rode the old Sunset Ltd. from Jacksonville to Houston several times and the train was always pretty full by the time we got to New Orleans. Amtrak really needs some sort of service east of NOLA. If they decided to extend the CONO east, why could they simply alter the existing schedule a bit.

I see no reason why the CONO couldn't depart Chicago in the morning and arrive in NOLA earlier.

As for me, I would love to be able to go between NOLA and point east in FL on a train.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

I certainly think there would some demand for this eastbound service. I rode the old Sunset Ltd. from Jacksonville to Houston several times and the train was always pretty full by the time we got to New Orleans. Amtrak really needs some sort of service east of NOLA. If they decided to extend the CONO east, why could they simply alter the existing schedule a bit.

I see no reason why the CONO couldn't depart Chicago in the morning and arrive in NOLA earlier.

As for me, I would love to be able to go between NOLA and point east in FL on a train.

I think the current CONO schedule should not be drastically adjusted. Southern Illinois has no major cities and already has corridor trains, whereas Memphis and Jackson rely on good times for the CONO. Your plan could put them in the middle of the night. It would also break all Western LD connections at Chicago.

 

[A Voice]

There are people who can't fly (for medical reasons), won't fly (for any number of reasons) and people who like to see the country on their travels.

The people who "like to see the country" are either "drivers" or "rail fans"

So, are the people who take bus tours to see the country "drivers" or "rail fans"?

By your standard, anyone watching the scenery from a train is by definition a "railfan". As I already suggested in the post above yours, people travel by bus and automobile all the time without being labeled "bus fans" or "gear heads"/ Why is it that you think anyone choosing to travel by train - for the same trip and distance as bus or car - is therefore a "railfan"?

Amtrak was quick to "forget about" the NOL-JAX half of the Sunset when Katrina so conveniently disrupted its schedule. It was that big of a money sink.

Source please? There were also politics involved, not that its unusual.

The only people I know who did ride it were the same ones who'd travel 1000 miles to ride some special steam train.

This really ought to be obvious, but just because you don't know of them doesn't mean they don't exist. And in large numbers. I don't know of anyone - not a soul - who likes iced coffee. So why do places keep selling it since, obviously, absolutely no one ever buys the stuff.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Once again Southern railfans,when the NOL to Florida train is Finally reality hopefully sometime in this Century, it will be a stand alone train probably between New Orleans and Mobile at first., the CONO will NOT be run through to Florida!

The Daily Texas Eagle between CHI and LAX makes the most sense with a Sunset stub train between SAS and NOL

being a natural once this occurs, God and UP willing! ( Wick maybe could do this one himself since he has cred with the Class Is!)

Hopefully the blackhole for connections in NOL can be corrected although spending the night in the Big Easy is always a good thing!

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Once again Southern railfans,when the NOL to Florida train is Finally reality hopefully sometime in this Century, it will be a stand alone train probably between New Orleans and Mobile at first., the CONO will NOT be run through to Florida!

The Daily Texas Eagle between CHI and LAX makes the most sense with a Sunset stub train between SAS and NOL

being a natural once this occurs, God and UP willing! ( Wick maybe could do this one himself since he has cred with the Class Is!)

Hopefully the blackhole for connections in NOL can be corrected although spending the night in the Big Easy is always a good thing!

Is your statement that the New Orleans to Florida train will not originate in Chicago based on a source or a personal guess? I would not be surprised if the train line opens to Mobile first and Florida later, but every source I have seen at least lists a continuation of the CONO as a possibility. In most cases, it actually seems to be the preferred option. At the very least the New Orleans-Florida train should provide connections to the CONO.
While New Orleans connections would be desirable, they are not likely any time soon. The Crescent relies on Atlanta traffic, so it would not make sense to put Atlanta in the middle of the night simply for the sake of New Orleans. The CONO should not be changed for reasons I stated in my previous post. The SL has to serve Houston at good times and relies on the TE through cars. A drastic schedule change to allow connections to the Crescent would be hard to do. I think the best solution without funding for additional frequencies is to store one or more passenger cars in the New Orleans station overnight so that connecting passengers do not have to pay for a hotel for a few hours of sleep.

 

[benale]

When was that test run between New Orleans and Jacksonville..almost a year ago? How long will it take to resume sevice East of New Orleans? Sunset Limited extension, CONY extension, separate train? Just DO it!! i'd ;like to ride it in my lifetime again. I have ridden the Sunet all the way to Fort Lauderdale and several times to Orlando and Jacksonville..

How many years will it take?

 

[Don Newcomb]

So, are the people who take bus tours to see the country "drivers" or "rail fans"?

Last time I "rode the dog" there were no words in my vocabulary to adequately describe my fellow passengers.

When I've taken a bus with a group to go to an event, we could all have been described as "too tipsy to drive home."

 

[A Voice]

Once again Southern railfans,when the NOL to Florida train is Finally reality hopefully sometime in this Century, it will be a stand alone train probably between New Orleans and Mobile at first., the CONO will NOT be run through to Florida!

May I ask where you are hearing this? It almost has to be a recent development, or in error, as it pretty directly contradicts nearly every other source or piece of information we've heard. I'm frankly surprised that the state(s) would be so quick to step up to the plate with funding for a Mobile to New Orleans train, as opposed to a federally funded City of New Orleans extension.

 

[Don Newcomb]

Source please? There were also politics involved, not that its unusual.

"According to the Florida Department of State, that didn’t go so well, either. The Sunset Limited’s Gulf Coast service was one of Amtrak’s “least efficient routes,” and generated $29.3 million in losses in 2004 and $35.2 million in losses in 2005. Put differently, every passenger in the year prior to Hurricane Katrina represented a $433 loss."

http://watchdog.org/209853/amtrak-florida-cost/

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

"According to the Florida Department of State, that didn’t go so well, either. The Sunset Limited’s Gulf Coast service was one of Amtrak’s “least efficient routes,” and generated $29.3 million in losses in 2004 and $35.2 million in losses in 2005. Put differently, every passenger in the year prior to Hurricane Katrina represented a $433 loss."

http://watchdog.org/209853/amtrak-florida-cost/

How's that different from the SL post Katrina? Is there evidence the problems of the SL were limited to east of NOL or the train was less popular east of NOL?

 

[Don Newcomb]

How's that different from the SL post Katrina? Is there evidence the problems of the SL were limited to east of NOL or the train was less popular east of NOL?

I was asked to produce a source for my statement that the Gulf Coast Sunset segment was a "money sink". I produced a source. I'll let other folks argue about it. It wasn't hard to Google. I've read several articles that stated that this segment was one of Amtrak's biggest money losers, before Katrina.

Now, I happen to think that rail service connecting New Orleans and Mobile is a dandy idea. Beyond Mobile, I'm not so sure. The big issue is what happens between Mobile and Pensacola. I don't know how to upload a map to this forum but the zig-zag the route takes is one of the major reasons it used to take something like 8 hours for the Sunset to go from Gulfport, MS to DeFuniak Springs, FL, a trip that normally takes about three hours by car.

 

[west point]

The Zig - Zag you mentioned is most evident at Pensacola. 50 miles of 25 MPH running to get about 8 miles from one point to another.

The only way to reduce the loses of the NOL <> ORL is to run it as a day train.

 

[neroden]

Three a week is ALWAYS a money sink. It's amazing the Cardinal does as well as it does.

You really can't make any assessment about how well a daily train from New Orleans to Jacksonville or Orlando would do from a three-a-week train.

(Well, you could start by multiplying revenue by 2.33 and costs by 1.5, if you had the numbers broken down to that level, but you don't for the Gulf Coast train.)

IIRC, Amtrak has actually come up with a very smart schedule which runs overnight east of Mobile and west of Talahassee (in the "slow segment" of the route). It had to run overnight somewhere, might as well be the really slow part.

The proposal: eastbound leaves Mobile at 8:18 PM, Talahassee at 5 AM; westbound leaves Talahassee at 11:10PM, Mobile at 6:03 AM.

For New Orleans to Mobile, it's east in the evening, west in the morning.

The CONO would continue to, quite rightly, run overnight from Memphis to Chicago. (That said, it would be great to extend one of the Carbondale trains to Memphis.)

-----

Frankly, nothing on this route is fast enough. For some reason it's all slower than driving, and that's not good. But the worst part is from Mobile to Talahassee. There is no way whatsoever to make that competitive as a day train; making it overnight is basically the only way to make it even slightly competitive.

Adding the Gulf Coast route to the CONO, as opposed to the SL or standalone, does make sense; it makes the trip two nights / one day from Chicago to Orlando. Driving Chicago to Orlando is two days / one night, so shorter than the train route, but some people will take the train anyway. It's faster than the Capitol Limited / Silver Service combo as well as being a one-seat ride. And when we're talking about "slower than driving", it's good to anchor your train route to the cities with the highest percentage of car-free households -- Chicago's always high on that list, whereas nothing on the "west half" of the Sunset Limited is.

 

[Don Newcomb]

I'd mention that the local governments and chambers of commerce in S. Miss. are very enthusiastic about bringing back train service (as long someone else is paying for it). I think that daily service from Chicago will probably bring more tourists to our casinos and year-round golf than tri-weekly service from the Jacksonville and Houston, where golf in January is nothing special. BTW, golf tourism requires that the stations support baggage service.

Of course, you'd also think that the same chambers of commerce would have arranged for a bus to meet the Crescent in Hattiesburg to bring throngs of passengers to the beaches but that would have cost someone a dollar or two. "The Dog" has evacuated many of their old downtown stations, which were usually either collocated with or nearby the Amtrak stations. In Gulfport the Greyhound stop is now a Shell station just off I-10 about 4 miles north of the old Amtrak station and Hattiesburg is similar. So intermodal connections are non-existent. The only current Greyhound bus connection between Gulfport/Biloxi and Hattiesburg would require an overnight stay in Hattiesburg to connect to the Crescent. I know this sounds like I'm rambling off-topic but it gets back to the frustration of being unable to make connections at NOL. I believe that if you could reasonably connect from the Crescent and Sunset to the CONO at NOL it would be much better but I understand that trains sync in Chicago, L.A. and NYC, not NOLA.

I'm a tad frustrated when I see the interconnection of the public transport system in some places vs the harum-scarum system we have in the Gulf South. I have a hard time explaining to foreign students just how an advanced country like the US has such a primitive and disjointed public transport system when it's actually much easier to get around without a car in their 3rd-world countries. Sometimes it takes a visit to Atlanta or Houston, then they come back and tell me, "We understand now. In America, Gulfport is just a 'village'."

 

[WoodyinNYC]

... the local governments and chambers of commerce in S. Miss. are very enthusiastic about bringing back train service (as long someone else is paying for it). ... daily service from Chicago will probably bring more tourists to our casinos and year-round golf than [could] tri-weekly service from Jacksonville and Houston, where golf in January is nothing special. BTW, golf tourism requires that the stations support baggage service.

... the frustration ... if you could reasonably connect from the Crescent and Sunset to the CONO at NOL it would be much better. But I understand that trains sync in Chicago, L.A. and NYC, not NOLA.

I'm a tad frustrated when I see the interconnection of the public transport system in some places vs the harum-scarum system we have in the Gulf South. ...

All the South is under-served. I'm glad to see Amtrak working with officials and citizens groups to renew Gulf Coast service for a start. Then other lines can follow.

The proposal to extend the CONO includes plans for two trains. The Gulf Coast route from New Orleans to Orlando includes an option for a second train, NOLA-Mobile in the morning, and Mobile NOLA evening. Using Horizon equipment to keep costs down, that could be a very successful short corridor.

Next up could be Baton Rouge-NOLA. We just read of RFA grants to Baton Rouge and two mid-point locations to build new stations. Right. Where there's no train, spend money on stations? Well, I'm ready for a train, plenty of them actually, to run from the state capital city to the Big Easy.

Meanwhile, when enuf new bi-level enter service, freed-up equipment will allow the Texas Eagle take over the Sunset Ltd route west of San Antonio, going daily. Then Horizon equipment again will be used for the 'Sunset Shuttle' daily between New Orleans and San Antonio.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

... the local governments and chambers of commerce in S. Miss. are very enthusiastic about bringing back train service (as long someone else is paying for it). ... daily service from Chicago will probably bring more tourists to our casinos and year-round golf than [could] tri-weekly service from Jacksonville and Houston, where golf in January is nothing special. BTW, golf tourism requires that the stations support baggage service.

... the frustration ... if you could reasonably connect from the Crescent and Sunset to the CONO at NOL it would be much better. But I understand that trains sync in Chicago, L.A. and NYC, not NOLA.

I'm a tad frustrated when I see the interconnection of the public transport system in some places vs the harum-scarum system we have in the Gulf South. ...

All the South is under-served. I'm glad to see Amtrak working with officials and citizens groups to renew Gulf Coast service for a start. Then other lines can follow.

The proposal to extend the CONO includes plans for two trains. The Gulf Coast route from New Orleans to Orlando includes an option for a second train, NOLA-Mobile in the morning, and Mobile NOLA evening. Using Horizon equipment to keep costs down, that could be a very successful short corridor.

Next up could be Baton Rouge-NOLA. We just read of RFA grants to Baton Rouge and two mid-point locations to build new stations. Right. Where there's no train, spend money on stations? Well, I'm ready for a train, plenty of them actually, to run from the state capital city to the Big Easy.

Meanwhile, when enuf new bi-level enter service, freed-up equipment will allow the Texas Eagle take over the Sunset Ltd route west of San Antonio, going daily. Then Horizon equipment again will be used for the 'Sunset Shuttle' daily between New Orleans and San Antonio.

One problem then making connections will be that the proposed schedule has the train arriving from Orlando and Mobile at 9:30 a.m. -- with the Sunset Shuttle having headed out of town toward Houston at 9 a.m. This can be fixed fairly easily. Today the average speed of the Sunset Ltd. is a dismaying <40 mph NOLA-Houston. But speed up that segment by a couple of hours and you will have your connection on NOLA.

 

[Don Newcomb]

The proposal to extend the CONO includes plans for two trains. The Gulf Coast route from New Orleans to Orlando includes an option for a second train, NOLA-Mobile in the morning, and Mobile NOLA evening. Using Horizon equipment to keep costs down, that could be a very successful short corridor.

I look forward to being able to take the train into NOLA in the morning and return to the Coast in the evening. Something I was never able to do with the Sunset.

One issue is that the CONO would leave NOLA eastbound at 5:30PM. If not late, Sunset arrives in NOLA at 9:40 PM and the Crescent arrives at 7:32 PM both after the CONO has left. Similarly, both those trains depart NOLA before the proposed CONO would arrive from Mobile.

I was reading through Amtrak's decision paper, with the three proposed solutions. I didn't quite realize that not only did the Flomaton-Milton segment take a very round-about path down to Pensacola and back up to Milton. The whole Floamton-Tallahassee run is "dark" (manually supervised) track, with a speed limit of about 50 MPH.

 

[jis]

There is a new friend at Amtrak

http://www.sunherald.com/news/business/article167139767.html

This would indicate that the previous CFO, who was a Mica stooge, and who was instrumental in sabotaging food service at Amtrak at the bidding of his master, has been booted from Amtrak. Good riddance.

 

[Don Newcomb]

There is a new friend at Amtrak

http://www.sunherald.com/news/business/article167139767.html

This would indicate that the previous CFO, who was a Mica stooge, and who was instrumental in sabotaging food service at Amtrak at the bidding of his master, has been booted from Amtrak. Good riddance.

Just an aside about Mississippi politics,

“The stuff we had to deal with was just insane,” Feidt said. Most of that insanity was caused by former Director Bill Walker who went to prison for crimes committed at DMR. Several members of his staff were convicted as well.

This is why I always vote for a State Auditor from the party that's out of power.

 

[LookingGlassTie]

Pardon me if I've asked this question before, but what would the restored segment be named (if it even comes to fruition)?

The Sunset Limited would be restored to what it was before?

An extension of the City of New Orleans or an extension of the Crescent?

Or something totally different?

Thanks!

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Pardon me if I've asked this question before, but what would the restored segment be named (if it even comes to fruition)?

The Sunset Limited would be restored to what it was before?

An extension of the City of New Orleans or an extension of the Crescent?

Or something totally different?

Thanks!

It would either be an extension of the City of New Orleans or a stand-alone service of an unknown name.
Sent from my SM-J327P using Amtrak Forum mobile app

 

[me_little_me]

Pardon me if I've asked this question before, but what would the restored segment be named (if it even comes to fruition)?

The Sunset Limited would be restored to what it was before?

An extension of the City of New Orleans or an extension of the Crescent?

Or something totally different?

Thanks!

I understand Amtrak will call it the MicaStickIt Limited. :giggle:

 

[LookingGlassTie]

Pardon me if I've asked this question before, but what would the restored segment be named (if it even comes to fruition)?

The Sunset Limited would be restored to what it was before?

An extension of the City of New Orleans or an extension of the Crescent?

Or something totally different?

Thanks!

I understand Amtrak will call it the MicaStickIt Limited. :giggle:

Ha ha!!

 

[WoodyinNYC]

... what would the restored segment be named (if it even comes to fruition)?

The Sunset Limited would be restored to what it was before?

An extension of the City of New Orleans or ...?

Or something totally different?

It would either be an extension of the City of New Orleans or a stand-alone service of an unknown name.

No. Just no.

Brian, you should reread the Amtrak study. The final recommendation is for extending some of the City of New Orleans cars to Orlando. (It also proposed a corridor train to run New Orleans-Biloxi-Mobile. The corridor train would require state support, so don't hold your breath.)

A stand-alone train New Orleans-Jacksonville/Orlando would be a big loser -- passenger loser, money loser, and require more equipment. Not going to happen. Get it out of your head.

Re-extending the Sunset Ltd again would be a big loser. It's been tried and failed.

The long route had miserable time-keeping. A little delay near Yuma could throw things off for the next 2,000 miles and delay the train by a full day by the time it got to Florida! At best, the Sunset's arrivals and departures east of New Orleans were the post-midnight pits.

The new study has worked out a schedule that works New Orleans-Biloxi-Mobile before midnight, puts the unsignaled big empty Pensacola-Tallahassee stretch overnight, and has good times in Jacksonville and Orlando, with good connection north and south.

The locals who know the schedule issue best seem to support the new proposal enthusiastically.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

I don't think a name for this segment has been discussed, much less decided.

Maybe they will have a name-the-train contest like Missouri did to get the "River Runner".

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Glad to see that the new CFO is not intimidated by CSX's hardline high-money claim. The CONO-to-Orlando extension is too valuable to let CSX huff and puff it away.

There is a new friend at Amtrak

http://www.sunherald.com/news/business/article167139767.html

The next step is getting CSX, the owner of the line, the state transportation departments of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and Florida, and federal officials sitting down to negotiate, Feidt said.

“Once we get the cost figured out,” he said, “then we have to figure out how we’re going to pay for it, who’s going to pay for it and the funding mechanism.”



www.sunherald.com/