New Talgos moving westward for testing

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What I mean is the aesthetic quality of the Cascades trainsets. The Talgos today are already short, single level coaches pulled or pushed by a P42 (?) and has an F40 cab on the other end. They have tried to make them look respectable by a fairing in the baggage car and the paint scheme tries to meld the gianormous loco to the petite coaches. That's already an eyesore in my opinion, but the Talgos are liked and my opinion doesn't really matter as I have not even ever been on one.

So whenever the lead loco goes out of service, they replace it with, obviously, a regularly painted locomotive from the Amtrak barn. First a huge color mismatch and just becomes downright ugly.

So, in these talks, it sounds like they haven't figured out how to work a Cab car, Cabbage, power car, two power cars on one end or how they are even going to make the trainset look respectable. Again, I haven't seen any concepts, but my imagination disappoints me.
 
Just an FYI the current Amtrak & Washington owned Talgos are primarily powered by an F59PHI. Part of the reason for that is because the FRA won't let them run here in the states really. Even now they are running with a waiver which dictates that there has to be an FRA compliant end car on both ends.

Peter
 
Just an FYI the current Amtrak & Washington owned Talgos are primarily powered by an F59PHI. Part of the reason for that is because the FRA won't let them run here in the states really. Even now they are running with a waiver which dictates that there has to be an FRA compliant end car on both ends.

Peter
I think just the lead end, not both ends. I've seen plenty of Cascades consists where there was no cabbage/NPCU, just a locomotive on the front and a "batmobile" look on the rear.
 
So whenever the lead loco goes out of service, they replace it with, obviously, a regularly painted locomotive from the Amtrak barn. First a huge color mismatch and just becomes downright ugly.
The Talgos and California fleet have God-awful paint schemes that should never have been agreed to. Example: look at North Carolina, it's a variation on existing colors, not the same, but it works beautifully. Oregon, Washington, and California wanted a branding and culture very separate from Amtrak, whether right or wrong is another topic i guess, but when the cars are shuffled around into different trains the result is off. If Amtrak was willing to put up a little more, it could have preserved it's bargainiing leverage.
 
So whenever the lead loco goes out of service, they replace it with, obviously, a regularly painted locomotive from the Amtrak barn. First a huge color mismatch and just becomes downright ugly.
The Talgos and California fleet have God-awful paint schemes that should never have been agreed to. Example: look at North Carolina, it's a variation on existing colors, not the same, but it works beautifully. Oregon, Washington, and California wanted a branding and culture very separate from Amtrak, whether right or wrong is another topic i guess, but when the cars are shuffled around into different trains the result is off. If Amtrak was willing to put up a little more, it could have preserved it's bargainiing leverage.
I think Amtrak should have insisted that all their trains whether owned by them or the states, should match Amtrak's livery. If they had to 'throw the states a bone', for financing the cars, it should have been something simple, like choosing an appropriate name. What if Amtrak did insist? What would the states do, refuse to finance the car? Or find another operatior?
 
Am I missing something? What's with the hatred of the Talgos? Yes, they're different, and yes, they have their quirks. But as far as I can tell, most of us in the Northwest who ride them frequently really like them. The bottom line is, they're trains! And they work well in their intended habitat. That's the important thing.

Really, some of the comments remind me of Stan Freberg's version of George Washington's conversation with Betsy Ross about the American flag.

George: Are you kidding with these colors? Red, white and blue?
Betsy: Well, those are the only remnants I had around the…

George: Wait a minute! Stars? I deliberately said polka-dots.

Betsy: Huh?

George: Stars with stripes? How does that work together, design-wise?

Betsy: Alright, you want to be the big man and put on the thimble, huh?

George: No, it’s just…

Betsy: Then how’s about you let me run the flag department and you run the army like a nice father of our country, okay?

George: I know, but-

("Everybody Wants To Be An Art Director")

1989 extended version

George:

Look at the colors you chose

The best you could do I suppose

A peppermint stripe with royal blue

The same as the British colors too

Now how will we tell whose side is who?

Look at the colors you chose

Why couldn't it have been puce

Lavender over chartreuse

Or possibly some exotic shade

A delicate orange, mauve, or jade

Instead of the choice that has been made

Why couldn't it have been possibly cinnamon?
 
The biggest beef I've got with the Talgos is really functional, not stylistic. Namely, that there's no real ability to add or remove cars based upon demand, only the ability to potentially run the sets an additional time if the schedule allows. It's that loss of flexibility (and with it the inability to slowly extend a train as time goes by and ridership increases) that gnaws at me more than anything.
 
That is but one of many factors to be taken into consideration, and not the most important one apparently, given that most serious passenger operators in the world, specially of the higher speed kind and the suburban kind have evolved to use fixed consist sets. Apparently the costs and benefits work out in favor of fixed consists for whatever reason. Incidentally even where fixed consists are used, they can be modified and individual units within them replaced, but it is a somewhat more involved process.
 
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So whenever the lead loco goes out of service, they replace it with, obviously, a regularly painted locomotive from the Amtrak barn. First a huge color mismatch and just becomes downright ugly.
The Talgos and California fleet have God-awful paint schemes that should never have been agreed to. Example: look at North Carolina, it's a variation on existing colors, not the same, but it works beautifully. Oregon, Washington, and California wanted a branding and culture very separate from Amtrak, whether right or wrong is another topic i guess, but when the cars are shuffled around into different trains the result is off. If Amtrak was willing to put up a little more, it could have preserved it's bargainiing leverage.
I think Amtrak should have insisted that all their trains whether owned by them or the states, should match Amtrak's livery. If they had to 'throw the states a bone', for financing the cars, it should have been something simple, like choosing an appropriate name. What if Amtrak did insist? What would the states do, refuse to finance the car? Or find another operatior?
Really, you're concerned about matching paint schemes?
 
So whenever the lead loco goes out of service, they replace it with, obviously, a regularly painted locomotive from the Amtrak barn. First a huge color mismatch and just becomes downright ugly.
The Talgos and California fleet have God-awful paint schemes that should never have been agreed to. Example: look at North Carolina, it's a variation on existing colors, not the same, but it works beautifully. Oregon, Washington, and California wanted a branding and culture very separate from Amtrak, whether right or wrong is another topic i guess, but when the cars are shuffled around into different trains the result is off. If Amtrak was willing to put up a little more, it could have preserved it's bargainiing leverage.
I think Amtrak should have insisted that all their trains whether owned by them or the states, should match Amtrak's livery. If they had to 'throw the states a bone', for financing the cars, it should have been something simple, like choosing an appropriate name. What if Amtrak did insist? What would the states do, refuse to finance the car? Or find another operatior?
Really, you're concerned about matching paint schemes?
Well it's not a really big deal, but personal opinion....

Why is there an "Amtrak California" for example? Or the other operations that would have people believe it is a different company from Amtrak?

What if every state that funded Amtrak insisted on having their name on the operation and/or equipment?

I would rather see a uniform and cohesive fleet coast to coast, that's all........
 
Why is there an "Amtrak California" for example? Or the other operations that would have people believe it is a different company from Amtrak?

What if every state that funded Amtrak insisted on having their name on the operation and/or equipment?

I would rather see a uniform and cohesive fleet coast to coast, that's all........
But Amtrak California is a separate company. They own much of the equipment and they contract with Amtrak to run the services.
 
Why is there an "Amtrak California" for example? Or the other operations that would have people believe it is a different company from Amtrak?

What if every state that funded Amtrak insisted on having their name on the operation and/or equipment?

I would rather see a uniform and cohesive fleet coast to coast, that's all........
But Amtrak California is a separate company. They own much of the equipment and they contract with Amtrak to run the services.
The employees are Amtrak? they wear Amtrak (not "Amtrak California") uniforms, etc.? When Amtrak operated some contracted commuter services like MBTA, they were clearly differentiated and dedicated to those services. I don't think it's the same in this instance. Nor for the North Carolina services.

I would rather see a uniform system. The states could still own cars, with an equipment trust like plate affixed, as in years past of bank financing....

I believe its just a matter of the ego of state bureaucrats 'empire building', where they try to differentiate themselves from the national system.....
 
So whenever the lead loco goes out of service, they replace it with, obviously, a regularly painted locomotive from the Amtrak barn. First a huge color mismatch and just becomes downright ugly.
The Talgos and California fleet have God-awful paint schemes that should never have been agreed to. Example: look at North Carolina, it's a variation on existing colors, not the same, but it works beautifully. Oregon, Washington, and California wanted a branding and culture very separate from Amtrak, whether right or wrong is another topic i guess, but when the cars are shuffled around into different trains the result is off. If Amtrak was willing to put up a little more, it could have preserved it's bargainiing leverage.
I think Amtrak should have insisted that all their trains whether owned by them or the states, should match Amtrak's livery. If they had to 'throw the states a bone', for financing the cars, it should have been something simple, like choosing an appropriate name. What if Amtrak did insist? What would the states do, refuse to finance the car? Or find another operatior?
Really, you're concerned about matching paint schemes?
Well it's not a really big deal, but personal opinion....

Why is there an "Amtrak California" for example? Or the other operations that would have people believe it is a different company from Amtrak?

What if every state that funded Amtrak insisted on having their name on the operation and/or equipment?

I would rather see a uniform and cohesive fleet coast to coast, that's all........
Many European countries' regional routes use unique livery. It helps one realize what train they're looking at, which can actually be helpful to passengers, as well as for "branding" purposes.
 
Why is there an "Amtrak California" for example? Or the other operations that would have people believe it is a different company from Amtrak?

What if every state that funded Amtrak insisted on having their name on the operation and/or equipment?

I would rather see a uniform and cohesive fleet coast to coast, that's all........
But Amtrak California is a separate company. They own much of the equipment and they contract with Amtrak to run the services.
The employees are Amtrak? they wear Amtrak (not "Amtrak California") uniforms, etc.? When Amtrak operated some contracted commuter services like MBTA, they were clearly differentiated and dedicated to those services. I don't think it's the same in this instance. Nor for the North Carolina services.

I would rather see a uniform system. The states could still own cars, with an equipment trust like plate affixed, as in years past of bank financing....

I believe its just a matter of the ego of state bureaucrats 'empire building', where they try to differentiate themselves from the national system.....
The simple answer is that Caltrans pays the bill, so what they say goes. They don't even allow their equipment to leave the state without explicit permission, because if they do they know they won't see it again for a while, Amtrak and the frieght railroads are constantly loosing track of cars.

And yes, Caltrans can and will get another operator if they have to, it's something Amtrak lives in constant fear over.
 
Why is there an "Amtrak California" for example? Or the other operations that would have people believe it is a different company from Amtrak?

What if every state that funded Amtrak insisted on having their name on the operation and/or equipment?

I would rather see a uniform and cohesive fleet coast to coast, that's all........
But Amtrak California is a separate company. They own much of the equipment and they contract with Amtrak to run the services.
The employees are Amtrak? they wear Amtrak (not "Amtrak California") uniforms, etc.? When Amtrak operated some contracted commuter services like MBTA, they were clearly differentiated and dedicated to those services. I don't think it's the same in this instance. Nor for the North Carolina services.

I would rather see a uniform system. The states could still own cars, with an equipment trust like plate affixed, as in years past of bank financing....

I believe its just a matter of the ego of state bureaucrats 'empire building', where they try to differentiate themselves from the national system.....
The simple answer is that Caltrans pays the bill, so what they say goes. They don't even allow their equipment to leave the state without explicit permission, because if they do they know they won't see it again for a while, Amtrak and the frieght railroads are constantly loosing track of cars.

And yes, Caltrans can and will get another operator if they have to, it's something Amtrak lives in constant fear over.
Maybe. From what I've heard, the state of California finances are pretty shaky these days--perhaps even more so than Amtrak's.....
 
Why is there an "Amtrak California" for example? Or the other operations that would have people believe it is a different company from Amtrak?

What if every state that funded Amtrak insisted on having their name on the operation and/or equipment?

I would rather see a uniform and cohesive fleet coast to coast, that's all........
But Amtrak California is a separate company. They own much of the equipment and they contract with Amtrak to run the services.
The employees are Amtrak? they wear Amtrak (not "Amtrak California") uniforms, etc.? When Amtrak operated some contracted commuter services like MBTA, they were clearly differentiated and dedicated to those services. I don't think it's the same in this instance. Nor for the North Carolina services.

I would rather see a uniform system. The states could still own cars, with an equipment trust like plate affixed, as in years past of bank financing....

I believe its just a matter of the ego of state bureaucrats 'empire building', where they try to differentiate themselves from the national system.....
The political intention going forward is clearly to divvy up Amtrak and spin off the State funded services as separate organizations, even though they may be operated by Amtrak in some instances. If I am a state and I am paying for something, why would I want to be hamstrung by less that spectacular service provided by Amtrak is beyond me. Now if Amtrak were actually capable of providing world class service that would strengthen their case a bit more.

Whether you like it or not. California really is a separate organization. It is not prevented from bagging Amtrak and getting someone else to run their trains if they so choose. And Amtrak does not have the wherewithal to take over and run Amtrak California should California decided to discontinue funding. Amtrak California is a distinct California operation. It also comes to mind that Amtrak could probably never have struck up the deal with UP all by themselves that Gene managed to, only because he could negotiate outside the Amtrak straightjacket using non-Amtrak funds that were available to him and not to Amtrak.

Current state of Amtrak is a stopgap measure at best. Wellwishers of passenger rail in the US really need to look beyond where we are or passenger rail, specially the long distance kind is doomed.
 
Amtrak and the frieght railroads are constantly loosing track of cars.
Freight RR's maybe, but Amtrak doesn't have enough rolling stock to be able to just "loose" track of.
I think some track inspectors should be focusing their attention on where the track is loose. Might cause a derailment.
 
I have to agree with Charlie. I like the Talgos, including the color scheme. My dad had some leisure suits with those same colors. :lol: My next planned Amtrak adventure includes a Portland - Seattle Cascades run. As Charlie said, they're trains! Beats taking a bus from Portland to Seattle any day, in my opinion.
 
And yes, Caltrans can and will get another operator if they have to, it's something Amtrak lives in constant fear over.
But they won't be allowed to call it Amtrak California, will they?

So changing operator would require a massive re-branding exercise with all the associated loss of a recognized brand.

If Caltrans really wanted to be flexible about operators, they would never have called their rail branch Amtrak California but gone for a name they actually own.
 
And yes, Caltrans can and will get another operator if they have to, it's something Amtrak lives in constant fear over.
But they won't be allowed to call it Amtrak California, will they?

So changing operator would require a massive re-branding exercise with all the associated loss of a recognized brand.

If Caltrans really wanted to be flexible about operators, they would never have called their rail branch Amtrak California but gone for a name they actually own.
Such rebranding would be very minor. The routes themselves have their own branding (Pacific Surfliner and San Joaquin). "Amtrak California" isn't exactly a household name anywhere, and changing it to something else wouldn't take much effort at all, other than scrubbing off the "Amtrak" name from the side of the cars.

I think this thread (which no longer has anything to do with the subject header of moving Talgo equipment to Colorado for testing) is drifting into the absurd with the complaints over branding details and whatnot.
 
And yes, Caltrans can and will get another operator if they have to, it's something Amtrak lives in constant fear over.
But they won't be allowed to call it Amtrak California, will they?

So changing operator would require a massive re-branding exercise with all the associated loss of a recognized brand.

If Caltrans really wanted to be flexible about operators, they would never have called their rail branch Amtrak California but gone for a name they actually own.
Changing branding is nothing massive. Many airlines do so almost regularly every 5 years or so. I think it is a complete non-issue in the broader scheme of things. Amtrak California was branded that way because it masde sense at the time. It says nothing about what may or may not happen down the line. However, if the peace of mind that one gets by believing otherwise is important...... :)
 
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