New Viewliners

[user 1215]

So when can we expect to see the new Viewliners? What are they going to do with the current Viewliner fleet? They hardly seem ready to replace and seem to be in better condition than the Superliner Sleepers (though I can't see how they are mechanically).

Are the new Viewliners supposed to add to the fleet, or replace the existing fleet?

Let's suppose they add to the fleet. Which trains "deserve" by usage the newest cars? Which trains need to be lengthened? Where does service need to be added (that would benefit from the current Viewliner fleet)?

 

[afigg]

So when can we expect to see the new Viewliners? What are they going to do with the current Viewliner fleet? They hardly seem ready to replace and seem to be in better condition than the Superliner Sleepers (though I can't see how they are mechanically).

Are the new Viewliners supposed to add to the fleet, or replace the existing fleet?

Let's suppose they add to the fleet. Which trains "deserve" by usage the newest cars? Which trains need to be lengthened? Where does service need to be added (that would benefit from the current Viewliner fleet)?

The Viewliner 2s will be both adding to and replacing the existing fleet. The 55 baggage, 25 diner, 25 baggage/dorm cars will be replacing the remaining Heritage fleet and expanding it in the number of available diners and sleeper capacity with the baggage/dorm cars for the crew to use. The 25 Viewliner 2 sleepers will be added to the 50 Viewliner 1 sleeper cars.

The last publicized information is that the first Viewliner 2 is scheduled to be delivered in October 2012. The first several units will have to undergo testing, maintenance and engineering review, FRA required tests. If the first cars are delivered in October and November 2012, others on this forum are more knowledgeable about how long the testing and maintenance training will take, but the first units probably won't go into service before spring(?) of 2013.

As for which LD trains get the first units in service, Amtrak presumably is developing roll-out plans, but those plans will be subject to change.

 

[jis]

As for which LD trains get the first units in service, Amtrak presumably is developing roll-out plans, but those plans will be subject to change.

Of course everything is subject to change, but an Amtrak spokesperson told the ESPA Annual Meeting this year that the LSL will be the first to get Viewliner 2 equipment.

 

[the_traveler]

The Viewliners in use today are ONLY the 1-3 sleepers on each train! (The coaches, dining cars and baggage cars are either Amfleet or Heritage equipment.) As stated above, the "new" Viewliner order includes other types of cars.

 

[AlanB]

As for which LD trains get the first units in service, Amtrak presumably is developing roll-out plans, but those plans will be subject to change.

Of course everything is subject to change, but an Amtrak spokesperson told the ESPA Annual Meeting this year that the LSL will be the first to get Viewliner 2 equipment.

Which makes sense for two reasons, reasons that are very likely to ensure that they don't change their minds either.

1) The LSL interacts with the other routes less, except during the winter when they rotate the consists south to thaw them out.

2) With the elimination of the toilets in the roomettes, as well as the undercarriage enclosed it should help to cut down on the freeze problems that the current Viewliners are more prone to.

 

[afigg]

Which makes sense for two reasons, reasons that are very likely to ensure that they don't change their minds either.

1) The LSL interacts with the other routes less, except during the winter when they rotate the consists south to thaw them out.

2) With the elimination of the toilets in the roomettes, as well as the undercarriage enclosed it should help to cut down on the freeze problems that the current Viewliners are more prone to.

A large part of a roll-out plan will have to do with the schedule and sequence for service facilities undergoing training and certification for maintenance & checks of the Viewliner 2s. If the LSL gets Viewliner 2s first for the NYP to Chicago run, then the Cardinal might be next as it has the same endpoints.

The new baggage cars will be deployed system wide, but since the diners, baggage-dorms, and sleepers will be deployed only to the eastern LD trains, the eastern single level trains could get the new baggage cars first too as the eastern LD service facilities get trained and equipped to service the new Viewliners. Would also allow the eastern LD trains to run at 125 mph on the NEC. In that view, the western Superliner LD trains would get new baggage cars later in the delivery process.

If the weather is a consideration, with 25 new sleepers and 50 older sleepers, Amtrak could put entirely new sleepers on the LSL and Cardinal routes, and shift the freed-up current Viewliners to the Crescent and Silver trains until the Viewliner Is go through overhaul and reconfiguration. (which is the reported plan, correct?).

But this is all academic & speculation. The new Viewliners wont't show up in service until 2013.

 

[AlanB]

The new baggage cars will be deployed system wide, but since the diners, baggage-dorms, and sleepers will be deployed only to the eastern LD trains, the eastern single level trains could get the new baggage cars first too as the eastern LD service facilities get trained and equipped to service the new Viewliners. Would also allow the eastern LD trains to run at 125 mph on the NEC. In that view, the western Superliner LD trains would get new baggage cars later in the delivery process.

Even though the Viewliners use modular technology, as in build the room some place else and then just slide it in & bolt it down and then plug it in, it wouldn't surprise me to see the full baggage cars come into service first. They require minimal work in terms of electric, plumbing, and other passenger niceties. Just slide in a few luggage modules and the car is ready to go.

 

[Bob Dylan]

If the First New Cars that go into Service are the New Bag/Dorm Cars does this mean that the TransDorms on the Superliner Trains can be Opened up for Revenue Service after a Little Rehab/this would sure help with the Shortage of Sleepers on the CS/CL/CZ/EB/SWC/TE/SSL during most of the Year??

 

[printman2000]

If the First New Cars that go into Service are the New Bag/Dorm Cars does this mean that the TransDorms on the Superliner Trains can be Opened up for Revenue Service after a Little Rehab/this would sure help with the Shortage of Sleepers on the CS/CL/CZ/EB/SWC/TE/SSL during most of the Year??

Do you mean open up the REST of the TransDorm? Since rooms in the Transdorm are already being sold.

I suspect the Bag/dorms are more for the Eastern trains.

 

[Bob Dylan]

If the First New Cars that go into Service are the New Bag/Dorm Cars does this mean that the TransDorms on the Superliner Trains can be Opened up for Revenue Service after a Little Rehab/this would sure help with the Shortage of Sleepers on the CS/CL/CZ/EB/SWC/TE/SSL during most of the Year??

Do you mean open up the REST of the TransDorm? Since rooms in the Transdorm are already being sold.

I suspect the Bag/dorms are more for the Eastern trains.

Yes, I meant the Rest of the Roomettes where the Crew currently Sleeps but also there is a H Room Downstairs on Most Transdorms and the "Office" that the Conductors use could become a really Nice Family Room and perhaps a Handicap Shower! The Bag Cars are So Old they will HAVE to be Replaced Soon so hence my Question.

 

[had8ley]

If the First New Cars that go into Service are the New Bag/Dorm Cars does this mean that the TransDorms on the Superliner Trains can be Opened up for Revenue Service after a Little Rehab/this would sure help with the Shortage of Sleepers on the CS/CL/CZ/EB/SWC/TE/SSL during most of the Year??

Do you mean open up the REST of the TransDorm? Since rooms in the Transdorm are already being sold.

I suspect the Bag/dorms are more for the Eastern trains.

Yes, I meant the Rest of the Roomettes where the Crew currently Sleeps but also there is a H Room Downstairs on Most Transdorms and the "Office" that the Conductors use could become a really Nice Family Room and perhaps a Handicap Shower! The Bag Cars are So Old they will HAVE to be Replaced Soon so hence my Question.

Jim, I suspect with so few bag/dorms that not all routes will be able to be covered by the new single level cars. I haven't done the math but I just don't think they'll be enough combine cars to go around for every train, every day. That being said it would be a crap shoot to spend the $$$ to re-furb some of the trans-dorms only to hae to go back to half and half (revenue and OBS) service (have you seen some of those rooms?). While we're spending $$$ we don't have anybody know exactly how many CCC's were converted and better yet, just how many are in actual use ??? BTW, what about the little room with the chair in it on the upper level of the trans-dorm? IIRC, it's on the pax end of the car and could easily be converted back to a roomette. I would almost bet 10,000 AGR points that a conductor hasn't sat in one since they came out~ same goes for the old "phone booth" conductor offices on the single level lounge cars :help:

 

[Bob Dylan]

Good Points/Comments Jay! Im not a Big Fan of the Coach/Bag Cars run on the Superliners since they take Revenue Seats from Amtrak and are Like the CCC, a Hybrid that Serves Neither Purpose Well! Im pretty sure that the Heritage Bag Cars will Start Showing Up as Bad Ordered on a Regular Basis as they have been Run to Death and are Older than 90% of the People Now Alive in this Country! !) Of Course the Obvious Answer is Superliner IIIs but we all Know this is Something that may happen when our Teenage Members are Old as Some of Us! :lol:

I Withdraw my Proposal except for maybe putting the "Office" back in Service as a Roomette and making the Downstairs "Office/Lounge" into a Family Room and perhaps a Handicap Shower/Bathroom!

 

[PaulM]

Based it the responses, it doesn't sound like there will be much additional single level sleeper capacity, considering the 50% increase in the number of cars (assuming the 50 + 25 numbers are correct).

If 50 cars can support 4 1/2 trains, can 75 cars support 6 3/4, in other words 2 more trains, such as a Night Owl and a Broadway Limited? :giggle:

 

[GlobalistPotato]

The new baggage cars will be deployed system wide, but since the diners, baggage-dorms, and sleepers will be deployed only to the eastern LD trains, the eastern single level trains could get the new baggage cars first too as the eastern LD service facilities get trained and equipped to service the new Viewliners. Would also allow the eastern LD trains to run at 125 mph on the NEC. In that view, the western Superliner LD trains would get new baggage cars later in the delivery process.

Even though the Viewliners use modular technology, as in build the room some place else and then just slide it in & bolt it down and then plug it in, it wouldn't surprise me to see the full baggage cars come into service first. They require minimal work in terms of electric, plumbing, and other passenger niceties. Just slide in a few luggage modules and the car is ready to go.

Question though: Will these new baggage cars have bike racks?

 

[Gord]

Good Points/Comments Jay! Im not a Big Fan of the Coach/Bag Cars run on the Superliners since they take Revenue Seats from Amtrak and are Like the CCC, a Hybrid that Serves Neither Purpose Well! Im pretty sure that the Heritage Bag Cars will Start Showing Up as Bad Ordered on a Regular Basis as they have been Run to Death and are Older than 90% of the People Now Alive in this Country! !) Of Course the Obvious Answer is Superliner IIIs but we all Know this is Something that may happen when our Teenage Members are Old as Some of Us! :lol:

I Withdraw my Proposal except for maybe putting the "Office" back in Service as a Roomette and making the Downstairs "Office/Lounge" into a Family Room and perhaps a Handicap Shower/Bathroom!

I have yet to see a plausible explanation at to how it is Via Rail is able to keep a fleet of similar vintage, Budd stainless steel cars in service without fuss while Amtrak's cars are too "old". Maybe something magical happens to Budd cars when they cross the border or maybe its because Via did heavy, mid-term rebuilds on them after acquistion from the CPR and a few US roads, a process currently being repeated. It's a lot cheaper to rebuild / modernize a good design than buy new. Case in point, there are hundreds of GP-7 / 9 locomotives running out there, many with almost six decades of service, good maintainable / parts supportable design so keep rebuilding as long as it makes economic sense.

The darn Budds are stainless steel and wheels, axles, bearings, springs 26-C brake components, etc. are all available. If Via can get parts and maintain these cars, then why can't Amtrak? Maybe it purely the economics of keeping a relatively small fleet in service but it would be great to hear from someone on the mechanical side, truely in the know.

Gord

 

[afigg]

Jim, I suspect with so few bag/dorms that not all routes will be able to be covered by the new single level cars. I haven't done the math but I just don't think they'll be enough combine cars to go around for every train, every day.

Look at the numbers. The order is for 25 baggage dorms, 25 diners, and 25 sleepers to go with the 50 Viewliner 1 sleepers for a total of 75 single level sleepers. That is enough to equip 25 train sets - in theory - with 1 baggage dorm, 1 diner, and 3 sleepers. The Viewliner baggage dorms will probably always go with the Viewliner diner cars and the eastern LD trains will have 1 to 3 sleepers. The order should will provide some additional capacity for additional single level LD trains such as a Silver Palm.

As was widely pointed out when the order was announced, that the baggage dorms with the crew rooms will be equivalent of adding an extra 10-12 sleepers in terms of freeing up roomettes on the sleepers for passengers.

The 55 baggage cars are for the Superliner LD trains and the longer distance eastern daytime corridor trains. There is reportedly an option for up to 70 additional Viewliner 2s, so if the funding can be found, there is the possibility of ordering additional Viewliner 2s while the production line is open.

 

[afigg]

Even though the Viewliners use modular technology, as in build the room some place else and then just slide it in & bolt it down and then plug it in, it wouldn't surprise me to see the full baggage cars come into service first. They require minimal work in terms of electric, plumbing, and other passenger niceties. Just slide in a few luggage modules and the car is ready to go.

Question though: Will these new baggage cars have bike racks?

There have not been many details made available about the Viewliner 2 order, but bike racks are a pretty safe bet.

As for baggage cars getting delivered first, would make sense for the first several units to be baggage cars. They can be used for FRA testing of the frame and trucks.

 

[AlanB]

If the First New Cars that go into Service are the New Bag/Dorm Cars does this mean that the TransDorms on the Superliner Trains can be Opened up for Revenue Service after a Little Rehab/this would sure help with the Shortage of Sleepers on the CS/CL/CZ/EB/SWC/TE/SSL during most of the Year??

Do you mean open up the REST of the TransDorm? Since rooms in the Transdorm are already being sold.

I suspect the Bag/dorms are more for the Eastern trains.

Yes, I meant the Rest of the Roomettes where the Crew currently Sleeps but also there is a H Room Downstairs on Most Transdorms and the "Office" that the Conductors use could become a really Nice Family Room and perhaps a Handicap Shower! The Bag Cars are So Old they will HAVE to be Replaced Soon so hence my Question.

Early on the process there had been talk of going with all baggage/dorm cars so as to be able to sell all the rooms, or at least most, in the current Superliner Trans/Dorms. The added expense of that I believe pushed the price tag beyond what Amtrak could commit to since no funding had to date been promised by Congress to help pay for the order.

So when the order was actually placed, 55 full baggage cars were ordered to hold down the total cost of the order. Therefore the baggage/drom cars will be used only on the single level trains, with I suppose an occasional rare substitution on say the Capitol if something goes wrong with a full bag and a bag/dorm just happens to be handy. So the Superliner Trans/Dorms will remain as is for the forseable future.

Of course since the Viewliner cars are modular as I mentioned earlier, there is nothing that stops Amtrak from sliding out half the baggage racks at some point in the future and then sliding in 7 rooms & a shower & a toilet module to create more bag/dorms. Well, nothing but money would stop them.

 

[AlanB]

The new baggage cars will be deployed system wide, but since the diners, baggage-dorms, and sleepers will be deployed only to the eastern LD trains, the eastern single level trains could get the new baggage cars first too as the eastern LD service facilities get trained and equipped to service the new Viewliners. Would also allow the eastern LD trains to run at 125 mph on the NEC. In that view, the western Superliner LD trains would get new baggage cars later in the delivery process.

Even though the Viewliners use modular technology, as in build the room some place else and then just slide it in & bolt it down and then plug it in, it wouldn't surprise me to see the full baggage cars come into service first. They require minimal work in terms of electric, plumbing, and other passenger niceties. Just slide in a few luggage modules and the car is ready to go.

Question though: Will these new baggage cars have bike racks?

The original plans did not include any, but it has since been said that a modification was indeed ordered to allow for bike racks. It remains unclear however if that mod will only be applied to the full bags which have ample room, or if it will also be applied to the bag/dorms which really can't afford to loose any luggage racks in favor of a bike rack.

 

[AlanB]

Good Points/Comments Jay! Im not a Big Fan of the Coach/Bag Cars run on the Superliners since they take Revenue Seats from Amtrak and are Like the CCC, a Hybrid that Serves Neither Purpose Well! Im pretty sure that the Heritage Bag Cars will Start Showing Up as Bad Ordered on a Regular Basis as they have been Run to Death and are Older than 90% of the People Now Alive in this Country! !) Of Course the Obvious Answer is Superliner IIIs but we all Know this is Something that may happen when our Teenage Members are Old as Some of Us! :lol:

I Withdraw my Proposal except for maybe putting the "Office" back in Service as a Roomette and making the Downstairs "Office/Lounge" into a Family Room and perhaps a Handicap Shower/Bathroom!

I have yet to see a plausible explanation at to how it is Via Rail is able to keep a fleet of similar vintage, Budd stainless steel cars in service without fuss while Amtrak's cars are too "old". Maybe something magical happens to Budd cars when they cross the border or maybe its because Via did heavy, mid-term rebuilds on them after acquistion from the CPR and a few US roads, a process currently being repeated. It's a lot cheaper to rebuild / modernize a good design than buy new. Case in point, there are hundreds of GP-7 / 9 locomotives running out there, many with almost six decades of service, good maintainable / parts supportable design so keep rebuilding as long as it makes economic sense.

The darn Budds are stainless steel and wheels, axles, bearings, springs 26-C brake components, etc. are all available. If Via can get parts and maintain these cars, then why can't Amtrak? Maybe it purely the economics of keeping a relatively small fleet in service but it would be great to hear from someone on the mechanical side, truely in the know.

Gord

First, I rather suspect that VIA spends a lot more money on maintainance than does Amtrak on a per car basis because of the older cars.

However, I believe that one of the bigger factors is that VIA doesn't run the wheels off the cars like Amtrak does. Most Amtrak equipment, especially during the peak periods, is lucky if it sits for more than 12 hours before heading back out on another run. Equipment for the Canadian typically gets a 48 hour layover in both Vancouver and Toronto. And they have spares to toss into the consist if they have a car with a problem that can't be fixed in the alloted time.

 

[jis]

Another factor was that VIA got a pretty uniform fleet of Budd cars from CP that were very well maintained. Amtrak OTOH got a rag tag circus of cars from multiple places generally in worse shape. Fleet commonality was a significant problem and just the issue of inventory management to keep the fleet in good order and inventory available for each specific car wherever it failed was a huge drain. The only plausible thing to do if the old cars were to be kept alive was to select a subset of them that were similar and in good order and keep them. Instead, going to a uniform fleet does make quite a bit of sense, at least from day to day maintenance and deployment cost control considerations.

 

[had8ley]

If the First New Cars that go into Service are the New Bag/Dorm Cars does this mean that the TransDorms on the Superliner Trains can be Opened up for Revenue Service after a Little Rehab/this would sure help with the Shortage of Sleepers on the CS/CL/CZ/EB/SWC/TE/SSL during most of the Year??

Do you mean open up the REST of the TransDorm? Since rooms in the Transdorm are already being sold.

I suspect the Bag/dorms are more for the Eastern trains.

Yes, I meant the Rest of the Roomettes where the Crew currently Sleeps but also there is a H Room Downstairs on Most Transdorms and the "Office" that the Conductors use could become a really Nice Family Room and perhaps a Handicap Shower! The Bag Cars are So Old they will HAVE to be Replaced Soon so hence my Question.

Early on the process there had been talk of going with all baggage/dorm cars so as to be able to sell all the rooms, or at least most, in the current Superliner Trans/Dorms. The added expense of that I believe pushed the price tag beyond what Amtrak could commit to since no funding had to date been promised by Congress to help pay for the order.

So when the order was actually placed, 55 full baggage cars were ordered to hold down the total cost of the order. Therefore the baggage/drom cars will be used only on the single level trains, with I suppose an occasional rare substitution on say the Capitol if something goes wrong with a full bag and a bag/dorm just happens to be handy. So the Superliner Trans/Dorms will remain as is for the forseable future.

Of course since the Viewliner cars are modular as I mentioned earlier, there is nothing that stops Amtrak from sliding out half the baggage racks at some point in the future and then sliding in 7 rooms & a shower & a toilet module to create more bag/dorms. Well, nothing but money would stop them.

And what about windows ???

 

[jis]

And what about windows ???

Structurally I believe the window openings are there in the frame. However, if converting from baggage to passenger they will need to change out the paneling along the window strip to open up those spaces and install actual windows. So it will be a bit more than just sliding in the modules.

 

[had8ley]

And what about windows ???

Structurally I believe the window openings are there in the frame. However, if converting from baggage to passenger they will need to change out the paneling along the window strip to open up those spaces and install actual windows. So it will be a bit more than just sliding in the modules.

And I think the FRA would get involved in structural changes to an existing piece of rolling stock....

 

[Ryan]

Would a change from a metal panel to a glass window be considered "structural" if the frame is already there?