NO-Mobile; Mobile-Jacksonville Routes: Would it work?

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Guest_Tom_*

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With Amtrak saying that the Sunset east of New Orleans is done for and they are studying "corridors" for that area, this is what they could be thinking about- separate corridors from New Orleans to Mobile and Mobile to Jacksonville. I don't believe there would be direct Jacksonville to New Orleans service because that would mean traveling into the middle of the night, since that segment 17 hours to cover. So the question is, would a Mobile to Jacksonville daytime train work? It's about 500 miles and would hit medium-sized metros of Mobile, Pensacola, Tallahassee, and Jacksonville.
 
I was not aware amtrak said sunset east is done, last they told me they are waiting for repairs to mobile station. I would not mind taking 2 different trains to get to New Orleans, I have a friend to visit in Mobile.
 
The Mobile station repair is the "dog ate my homework" excuse.

I don't see breaking the trip at Mobile as being a very good idea. It is really not that much of a destination. Even though it was never very fast, remember the New Orleans to Jacksonville overnight Gulf Wind was solid enough in patronage that it lasted all the way to A-day when such seemingly more heavily traveled trains as the Georgian and Humming Bird did not. It leaft New Orleans around 5:00 to 6:00 pm and returned around 8:00 am for most of its life.
 
MrEd, Rafi quoted Alex Kummant himself as unofficially saying its dead, so this comes from the top.
 
Ofcourse it would work, however getting Amtrak to do it is another story.
 
MrEd, Rafi quoted Alex Kummant himself as unofficially saying its dead, so this comes from the top.
The entire interview with Alex Kummant appears in the current issue of the Passenger Train Journal, in which Alex pretty much says that "the east end [of the Sunset] can't really come back....It's just time for everyone to get over it". In the same interview he says that corridor service like NOL to Mobile and JAX to some point in North-west Florida is within the realm of possibilities.

So just go to your favorite hobby store and get yourself a copy of the PTJ and read it for yourself. Or you can try calling 877-787-2467 and see if they can mail you a copy. It is Issue 235 (2008:2) and costs $7.95. The interview appears on pages 14 through 17.

In addition to the Kummant interview the issue also has very good articles on Vermont Rail Passenger Revival, Passenger Train Revival in Northern Illinois, and a History of TurboTrain in North America.
 
MrEd, Rafi quoted Alex Kummant himself as unofficially saying its dead, so this comes from the top.
The entire interview with Alex Kummant appears in the current issue of the Passenger Train Journal, in which Alex pretty much says that "the east end [of the Sunset] can't really come back....It's just time for everyone to get over it". In the same interview he says that corridor service like NOL to Mobile and JAX to some point in North-west Florida is within the realm of possibilities.

So just go to your favorite hobby store and get yourself a copy of the PTJ and read it for yourself. Or you can try calling 877-787-2467 and see if they can mail you a copy. It is Issue 235 (2008:2) and costs $7.95. The interview appears on pages 14 through 17.

In addition to the Kummant interview the issue also has very good articles on Vermont Rail Passenger Revival, Passenger Train Revival in Northern Illinois, and a History of TurboTrain in North America.
It's pretty much out in the open now, so I might as well just come clean...

When I took David Hughes to the White House dinner back in 2006, I asked him the same question, and even back then, after a few glasses of wine, the guy said, and I quote, "Look, the Sunset isn't coming back [east of New Orleans]. We're looking into alternative routes, possibly Atlanta to Florida, but that's just an idea that's being batted around."

I don't know what came of the Atlanta-Florida study, or if it's still in progress.

Kummant pretty much echoed what Hughes said, and his perspective was that the equipment, the people (or money saved by not having certain positions staffed), the resources had all been absorbed into other parts of the system and to get them back would take a big check from Congress or States. He was happy to talk turkey about bringing the route back if others wanted to pony up the cash, but even I'm skeptical that that'll happen, and frankly, I understand where he's coming from.

-Rafi
 
I have taken the Sunset LTD between Jacksonville and New Orleans and return a number of times before it became very undependable from around 2001-2002. It was a perfect overnight trip and I did it for business and pleasure. I would not have taken a train where I had to change in Mobile. Every time I took the Sunset to New Orleans and return, there seemed to be quite a few passengers connecting with the City of New Orleans or traveling to Houston or San Antonio, but not as many going through to Los Angeles. There were also a number of passengers connecting from the Silver Meteor route from the north in Jacksonville. The greatest problem with the Sunset was the 3 day per week operation. I think a daily Jacksonville-New Orleans train with Superliner equipment including sleepers, coaches and a cross country cafe would do reasonably well if it operated on schedule and made decent connections in Jacksonville and New Orleans. I think there should be an additional local train from Mobile to New Orleans on a schedule opposite the through Jacksonville to New Orleans. I think the states need to come up with some funds to help support these trains like other states are doing. There are plenty of funds for highway construction in Florida. I have reminded my state representatives that intercity rail is a vialble alternative.
 
The Sunset Limited is not done it's just beginning. Sunset has been suspended, which means that it's temporarly not operating east of New Orleans. Plus it takes a while to restore stations from Bay St. Louis, Mississippi- Lake City, Florida especially Mobile. The train's route east is probably getting overhauled. By the way MrEd when did they tell you that they were waiting on repairs at Mobile station? Well that right there is a good sign of progress.
 
The Mobile station repair is the "dog ate my homework" excuse.
I don't see breaking the trip at Mobile as being a very good idea. It is really not that much of a destination. Even though it was never very fast, remember the New Orleans to Jacksonville overnight Gulf Wind was solid enough in patronage that it lasted all the way to A-day when such seemingly more heavily traveled trains as the Georgian and Humming Bird did not. It leaft New Orleans around 5:00 to 6:00 pm and returned around 8:00 am for most of its life.

Mr. Harris,

I've read that Savannah or Brunswick (memo to self: re-read footnotes on Alexander & Baldwin's -ticker:ALEX commercial warehouse just built there ) has one of the country's fastest growing deep water ports in the country. Is the route that the Sunset uses part of the route that services these ports? Would that account for the reluctance on part of the freights to act right?
 
guest-guest:

I do know tha the whole gulf coast route Jacksonville - Tallahassee - Pensacola - Mobile - New Orleans is carrying a lot more traffic than it did 20 years ago. Partly as a result of the "Family Lines" mergers that predated CSX, and partly due to the general growth in freight traffic overall. Thanks to many years of underinvestment in fixed facilities by CSX and predecessors, the ability of the line to carry traffic has not kept up with the traffic on it. (Here is where the TCI fund's main idea, reduce capital investment, is exactly the reverse of what is needed for CSX's long term viability.) How much, if any, of this relates to Savannah/Brunswick port traffic, I have no idea. I would be inclined to suspect not a lot. Remember, Mobile is also a major port and the tendency of ocean shipping is to keep it on the ship for the greatest distance practical. Because, ocean shipping on large vessels is very cheap comapred to any other form of freight transport.

Pre Family Lines merger, and particularly pre ACL + SAL, the SAL - L&N did not interchange a lot fo freight to the L&N at Chattahoochie. Reason: L&N was controlled by ACL, so most freight interchanage with L&N went to/from the ACL "friendly connection" at either Montgomery or Birmingham. As a result, the L&N portion that I first met in the early 70's was a 40 mph or slower line with rather old 100 lb jointed rail. Since this was a few years after ACL + SAL, it shortly got relay 132 lb rail, welded, but this was not anywhere close to new stuff. It did permit the speed limit to go to 49 mph. The bridge across Escambia Bay was replaced about that time. The old bridge was a 10 mph drawbridge, all timber trestle except the draw span, with weight restrictions. The new one a higher level bridge in concrete. in the same 1960's to 1970's time span, the long timber trestle bridges across the Gulf inlets between Mobile and New Orleans also go replaced with concrete bridges, but mostly still containing draw spans, as the increase in clearance on these bridges was regarded as impractical. Again, most of the old bridges carried weight restrictions as well as low speed restrictions. All these changes did a lot for the ability of the line to carry heavier loads, but not much for the ability of the line to carry more trains. I am saying all this to say that despite an apparent corporate allergy to large investments in the fixed plant they have spent a lot of money on this line over the years. It is just that with their capacity problems elsewhere, increased capacity to carry trains and carry them at higher speeds on this particular line is not at and probably not close to the top of CSX's to-do list.

Rafi:

I don't know what came of the Atlanta-Florida study, or if it's still in progress.
You must be forgetting that "doing a study" is governmentese for we don't really intend to do anything, but we want you to go away and leave us alone.
 
The Sunset Limited is not done it's just beginning. Sunset has been suspended, which means that it's temporarly not operating east of New Orleans. Plus it takes a while to restore stations from Bay St. Louis, Mississippi- Lake City, Florida especially Mobile. The train's route east is probably getting overhauled. By the way MrEd when did they tell you that they were waiting on repairs at Mobile station? Well that right there is a good sign of progress.
Well if Amtrak can stop in the middle of a road to discharge/board passengers on other routes, if Amtrak can stop to discharge/board passengers where there is no station or it is closed, falling down, and decrepit, then Amtrak doesn't need a station in Mobile or any other city to be restored before they restore train service.

And as for the route itself, CSX already overhauled things when the rebuilt after the damage. Katrina struck in the fall and by the following spring; CSX told Amtrak that they were ready to start accepting the Sunset Limited once again.

There are no valid excuses for not restoring the Sunset, except for the fact that it costs Amtrak money and they want the States to help pay for the service. And that IMHO is just plain wrong. States should really only pay to help run trains where the trains in question remain largely within that State and the primary beneficiary is that State. That is not the case with the Sunset Limited.
 
And as for the route itself, CSX already overhauled things when the rebuilt after the damage. Katrina struck in the fall and by the following spring; CSX told Amtrak that they were ready to start accepting the Sunset Limited once again.
Where are some of the congressmen we had 30 years ago that told Amtrak to "Run Trains", not "Do a study about running trains"??

There has been a lot of blame unfairly given to CSX on this whole Sunset East issue. Can't speak about the ex SAL portion east of Chattahoochie, but for the ex L&N portion, CSX has given Amtrak higher speed limits than the line ever had pre-Amtrak. They were showing 79 mph as the maximum New Orleans to Flomaton and 59 mph on the old PD-P&A portion east of Flomaton. The higest the line ever had in L&N days were 70 mph on the Montgomery - New Orleans main and 55 mph on the Panhandle line. That doesn't even get to the low speed bridges at Bay S. Louis, Biloxi Bay, and Escambia Bay which were all rebuilt.

As for the Mobile non-station. At least the platform location is downtown at the end of a major street, not hid away in a freight yard like Beaumont. Lack of stations is a completely bogus excuse.

As to the awaiting repairs on the Mobile station? I thought the building had been torn down.
 
Over the years, a criticism often aimed at Amtrak and Congress is that Amtrak was not able to behave like a real business. That decisions were made based on political ramifications, not transportation sense. In this case, Amtrak has made the decision that the Sunset east of New Orleans no longer makes business sense as part of the Amtrak-funded national system. They have left the door open for the states to step in and provide funding for a corridor-style service, but Amtrak is not willing to foot the bill for a full-service train on that route.

I think that is the kind of decision that Amtrak should be allowed to make. The numbers east of New Orleans were not there prior to Katrina, and sadly those numbers would be worse today. If Amtrak is to act like a business, then this is a business decision that, in my opinion, makes sense.
 
The Sunset Limited is not done it's just beginning. Sunset has been suspended, which means that it's temporarly not operating east of New Orleans. Plus it takes a while to restore stations from Bay St. Louis, Mississippi- Lake City, Florida especially Mobile. The train's route east is probably getting overhauled. By the way MrEd when did they tell you that they were waiting on repairs at Mobile station? Well that right there is a good sign of progress.
Unless Congress puts a gun to Amtrak's head and forces them to operate a through LAX to ORL train, the Sunset Limited as a train east of NOL is deader than a doornail. Its gone. Kaput. Defunct. Amtrak is not doing squat to resurrect it. The only reasons they don't cancel it entirely is to maintain the time slot and to buy time until other service can be considered.
 
Over the years, a criticism often aimed at Amtrak and Congress is that Amtrak was not able to behave like a real business. That decisions were made based on political ramifications, not transportation sense. In this case, Amtrak has made the decision that the Sunset east of New Orleans no longer makes business sense as part of the Amtrak-funded national system. They have left the door open for the states to step in and provide funding for a corridor-style service, but Amtrak is not willing to foot the bill for a full-service train on that route.
I think that is the kind of decision that Amtrak should be allowed to make. The numbers east of New Orleans were not there prior to Katrina, and sadly those numbers would be worse today. If Amtrak is to act like a business, then this is a business decision that, in my opinion, makes sense.
Except that I'm not actually sure that Amrak is behaving like a real business. The stated goal of Amtrak seems to be starting new services for states. And that means that Amtrak makes money, or at least doesn't loose money, but it also doesn't mean that Amtrak is being resorceful, trying to run the best service, or really make money. It just means that whatever happens, Amtrak doesn't loose money. Instead a state does.

And at least IMHO, since Amtrak is a Federal Government creation and owned by the same, it really should be serving as many US residents as possible and with Federal funding where trains cross state lines. To me this is a lot like the US Postal Service announcing tomorrow that since Florida, Alabama, and Mississippi aren't paying for the gas bills for the postal trucks, that they are going to stop delivering mail in those three states.

If the Sunset doesn't make sense, then fine maybe Amtrak really does need to rethink things. But just like you note that you haven't seen proof that the numbers that some say indicate that the Sunset east of NOL was really viable and delivered considerable revenue, I haven't seen numbers that say it's the dog that Amtrak seems to be claiming it is. And I haven't seen any numbers that tell us what the loss of the Sunset has meant to other connecting trains, something that is equally important. Heck, we're all still waiting for numbers from Amtrak that we can really trust. Too many things still don't make sense with Amtrak's financials. David Gunn went a long way towards making things more visible and clear, but we're still a long way from truely understanding all of the Amtrak numbers. Things like, are corridor costs still be charged to LD's.
 
Actually, Kummant hinted at a New Orleans to Mobile corridor and corridors within the state of Florida, mainly Jacksonville to Miami, including Orlando and Tampa. This leaves the Mobile to Jacksonville segment without service. However if the amendment within HR 6003 gets passed, it would push Amtrak to at least have a plan to restore that section as well. Hopefully that amendment gets passed, as it would force Amtrak to come up with something.
 
A few years ago now, Amtrak and Florida East Coast RR agreed to do the work necessary to begin a JAX-MIA route along the East coast of Florida. That would include service to St. Augustine, Daytona Beach, New Smyrna Beach, Cocoa Beach, Vero Beach, Stuart, etc. It would require some additional sidings and double trackage and stations to be built or perhaps refurbished, since there was service along that route long ago (in fact all the way down to Key West, 'The Railroad That Went to Sea' that Henry Flagler built and which a Labor Day hurricane destroyed in the early 20th century). As far as I know nothing further was actually done about that proposed Jax-Miami service along the East coast of Florida.

Interstate, and ESPECIALLY Transcontinental routes are not and should not EVER be the obligation of individual States to fund. That IS and rightfully SHOULD BE Amtrak's responsibility. It is a National disgrace that Amtrak is holding the Southern Transcon hostage, trying to get Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana to pay a ransom before Amtrak will resume that service. CSX did an amazing job of reinstating the rail system after Katrina. Amtrak needs to get it's corporate thumb out and meet it's rightful obligations. Their behavior since Katrina is disgraceful and unforgivable vis-a-vis Sunset East of NOL..
 
Two months ago amtrak told me service was suspended because of the mobile station, now they say it is because of the foundation. What is the foundation, not sure. I was counting on going to Mobile, but not that will not happen this year because of the bad foundation. I know the tracks are good, there are frieght trains running. I was checking with them monthly, I will just wait till next year.

<<

The Sunset Limited service east of New Orleans, LA to Orlando, FL via Mobile, AL and Tallahassee, FL was suspended until further notice due to damage to the tracks and foundations by past Hurricanes.

Regrettably, we do not have a date of when this service will resume.

We hope this information will be of assistance.

Sincerely,

Dorit

Amtrak Customer Service

<<
 
Two months ago amtrak told me ..., now they say ....
Amtrak has been outright lying about their reasons for not reinstating this service since about six months after Katrina (or whenever it was that CSX had the tracks fully up and running again). You can ask them all you want, but they will not tell you the truth about this because that would be admitting that they are willfully breaking the law.
 
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I have read in the Newspaper that a bill Amtrak restore the Sunset Limited run from new Orleans to Sanford Fla has beeen approved by the committee on Transportation and infrasturucture. Rep Gene Taylor did announced. The Bill, H.R. 6003, is a five year authorization of Amtrak. The provision includes $1 million for Amtrak to study the sunset Limited route. so now it has passed from the House Transportation and infrastructure back on May 22. Amtrak will have to submit its report within nine months of the bill being enacted. Gene Taylor had said that he is grateful that the committee included in the study for the sunset route. Gene Taylor did said that is one more step in the hurricane recovery process, and he hope the route is soon restored so that they can return transportation on the Gulf Coast to what it was before Hurricane Katrina.
 
Hey Guest_Guest_Fan_Trains_*_* , that is a report of a report, no actual work included in the bill.

we are waiting for someone to fix the foundation.
 
Mr. Ed, let me make this clear to you:

Amtrak is lying. There are no foundations to fix, other than the foundation of BS politics this country is running on. Nothing is broken except the politics of the system. The reason the train isn't running is: Amtrak doesn't want to lose money running it. Period.
 
Mr. Ed, let me make this clear to you:
Amtrak is lying. There are no foundations to fix, other than the foundation of BS politics this country is running on. Nothing is broken except the politics of the system. The reason the train isn't running is: Amtrak doesn't want to lose money running it. Period.
Dude, the bill said something about restoring the Sunset Limited route east of New Orleans. Plus on the bill it said 1 million dollars will be needed to study the route. How I know? Answer I read the whole bill last night.
 
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