North East Corridor (NEC) speeds, new stations and state of repair

[BlackDiamond]

The rest in CT is operated and dispatched by MNRR (CT border to Mill River (exclusive AFAIR)).

From Amtrak point of view, MNRR dispatches Mill River to the interlocking just West of New Rochelle, used to be SHELL in the PC days, now it is CP something-or-other. Amtrak trackage railroad West of that (former NY connecting RR) is dispatched by Amtrak.

 

[jis]

From Amtrak point of view, MNRR dispatches Mill River to the interlocking just West of New Rochelle, used to be SHELL in the PC days, now it is CP something-or-other. Amtrak trackage railroad West of that (former NY connecting RR) is dispatched by Amtrak.

True, but neither Shell (CP216) nor the NY Connecting Railroad have anything to do with Connecticut. The question was about Connecticut.

 

[BlackDiamond]

True, but neither Shell (CP216) nor the NY Connecting Railroad have anything to do with Connecticut. The question was about Connecticut.

But my understanding is that CT State Line to CP-216 is also state owned, by the State of NY. The question was about state owned segments such as CT and MA.

 

[jis]

But my understanding is that CT State Line to CP-216 is also state owned, by the State of NY. The question was about state owned segments such as CT and MA.

Good point!

BTW, IIRC NY Connecting Railroad (CP Harold to old CP Shell(exclusive)) is also owned by Amtrak and not by State of NY.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

do not forget that NYP - PHL has slower speed. As we all know PHL to Frankford JCT has various solwer sections.

Any idea if those are due to track geometry or if they are bottlenecks that could be resolved at some point in the near future?

 

[dlerach]

As I understand it, between NYP and PHL the following curves are sharper than .8 degrees:

Portal (2 degrees, 90 mph)
Harrison (3 degrees? 45 mph)
Elizabeth (S-Curve used to be 55 mph? Now something like 80 for Acelas?)
Metropark (1 degree? S-Currve 110 mph)
Metuchen (1 degree? S-Curve 110 mph)
Croydon? (1 degree, 110 mph?)
Torresdale (1 degree S-Curve, 110 mph)
Frankford Junction (4 degrees? S-Curve 50 mph)
North Penn Junction? Just north of N. PHL. (2 degrees?)
Zoo (45 mph due to both track geometry and mandatory diverging moves)

Portal Bridge and Sawtooth Bridges also have 45 mph speed limits. I believe that Dock interlocking (the Passaic River Bridges) also has a speed limit but I'm not sure how it interacts with the geometric restriction just north at Harrison.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

As I understand it, between NYP and PHL the following curves are sharper than .8 degrees:

Portal (2 degrees, 90 mph)
Harrison (3 degrees? 45 mph)
Elizabeth (S-Curve used to be 55 mph? Now something like 80 for Acelas?)
Metropark (1 degree? S-Currve 110 mph)
Metuchen (1 degree? S-Curve 110 mph)
Croydon? (1 degree, 110 mph?)
Torresdale (1 degree S-Curve, 110 mph)
Frankford Junction (4 degrees? S-Curve 50 mph)
North Penn Junction? Just north of N. PHL. (2 degrees?)
Zoo (45 mph due to both track geometry and mandatory diverging moves)

Portal Bridge and Sawtooth Bridges also have 45 mph speed limits. I believe that Dock interlocking (the Passaic River Bridges) also has a speed limit but I'm not sure how it interacts with the geometric restriction just north at Harrison.

When you say Portal, I assume you mean the area immediately before or after the bridge and not the curve right outside the tunnel to NYP? I believe that curve right outside/going into the tunnel is limited to 75mph (according to Train Sim World... clearly the gold standard of accurate sources).
Is the Harrison curve overly cautious? The curve always appears pretty mild and feels like 60mph wouldnt be an issue there at all.

 

[jis]

When you say Portal, I assume you mean the area immediately before or after the bridge and not the curve right outside the tunnel to NYP? I believe that curve right outside/going into the tunnel is limited to 75mph (according to Train Sim World... clearly the gold standard of accurate sources).

Normally that is called the Bergen Curve since it is adjacent to Bergen interlocking.

Is the Harrison curve overly cautious? The curve always appears pretty mild and feels like 60mph wouldnt be an issue there at all.

Harrison Curve is in the middle of an interlocking, so there are other issues that cause it to have restrictions in addition to the curve itself. Even if it had a high speed limit, a train coming off of or approaching Dock and Newark platform tracks would not be going all that fast there. In general just because a segment of track has a high posted speed does not necessarily mean anyone ever really operates at that speed there because of other issues in adjacent territories.

 

[dlerach]

When you say Portal, I assume you mean the area immediately before or after the bridge and not the curve right outside the tunnel to NYP? I believe that curve right outside/going into the tunnel is limited to 75mph (according to Train Sim World... clearly the gold standard of accurate sources).
Is the Harrison curve overly cautious? The curve always appears pretty mild and feels like 60mph wouldnt be an issue there at all.

Amtrak Employee Timetable has speeds from western limit of North River Tunnel to Portal Bridge at 90 mph. Admittedly I don't have current ETTs but I imagine not much has changed since my copy. What JJS says about Harrison Curve is correct. I will only add that the geometry there is surprisingly severe because of the yard tracks near what was once Manhattan Transfer. Using Google Earth, I measure the curve as having a 1900 ft. radius, which is basically 3 degrees.

 

[jis]

Amtrak Employee Timetable has speeds from western limit of North River Tunnel to Portal Bridge at 90 mph. Admittedly I don't have current ETTs but I imagine not much has changed since my copy. What JJS says about Harrison Curve is correct. I will only add that the geometry there is surprisingly severe because of the yard tracks near what was once Manhattan Transfer. Using Google Earth, I measure the curve as having a 1900 ft. radius, which is basically 3 degrees.

Harrison Curve is basically two interlocking one on the back of the other. To the East is Rea Interlocking, the west end of what used to be Manhattan Transfer and in the past was controlled by Hudson. At the west and actually stretching into the curve is Dock interlocking within which Newark Penn Station is located. Dock was one of the last interlockings to be moved under CETC.

 

[west point]

Thought Portal bridge is now 60 and North Portal will be 90?

Appears the listed slow speed sections that could be eliminated are 6. Now we know Frankford to North Penn is a series of curves. By using slowing and accelerations we can roughly approximate that an Acela AX-2 looses at least 2 minutes + the Frankford loses probably 12 minutes. A very WAG could save 20 - 24 minutes Maybe 15 - 20 minutes for a regional. Now what that will do to perceived and actual new passengers is not mine to guess.

 

[jis]

I am getting the feeling that we are re-discussing things that have been dealt with in somewhat gory detail in the Tier I EIS.

The Preferred Alternative incidentally is way more aggressive than what we are discussing here. Lots of new ROW which of course may or may not happen. But it gives a good idea of where they feel tinkering around in the current RoW is not cost effective, Unsurprisingly it includes a lot of the RoW between New Brunswick and Newark in NJ. Also unsurprisingly, I would be surprised if quite a bit of what they propose will ever come to pass too.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Thought Portal bridge is now 60 and North Portal will be 90?

Appears the listed slow speed sections that could be eliminated are 6. Now we know Frankford to North Penn is a series of curves. By using slowing and accelerations we can roughly approximate that an Acela AX-2 looses at least 2 minutes + the Frankford loses probably 12 minutes. A very WAG could save 20 - 24 minutes Maybe 15 - 20 minutes for a regional. Now what that will do to perceived and actual new passengers is not mine to guess.

What exactly is a WAG? And how exactly would that save so much time?

Harrison Curve is basically two interlocking one on the back of the other. To the East is Rea Interlocking, the west end of what used to be Manhattan Transfer and in the past was controlled by Hudson. At the west and actually stretching into the curve is Dock interlocking within which Newark Penn Station is located. Dock was one of the last interlockings to be moved under CETC.

Harrison Curve is in the middle of an interlocking, so there are other issues that cause it to have restrictions in addition to the curve itself. Even if it had a high speed limit, a train coming off of or approaching Dock and Newark platform tracks would not be going all that fast there. In general just because a segment of track has a high posted speed does not necessarily mean anyone ever really operates at that speed there because of other issues in adjacent territories.

Sorry to be obtuse, but why does an interlocking cause such slowdowns when a train might not be stopping there? I understand there might be traffic but doesnt the multiple tracks/platforms at NwkPenn stop that from bottlenecking? Acela's that don't stop at Newark (which I think should be the standard practice for them) should be able always looking to pass through them as quickly as possible. Moving through Newark at 60/65mph vs 30/35mph is a much cheaper way to save minutes than upgrading PJ-Trenton catenary to 150/160 (although they should do that nonetheless).

Amtrak Employee Timetable has speeds from western limit of North River Tunnel to Portal Bridge at 90 mph. Admittedly I don't have current ETTs but I imagine not much has changed since my copy. What JJS says about Harrison Curve is correct. I will only add that the geometry there is surprisingly severe because of the yard tracks near what was once Manhattan Transfer. Using Google Earth, I measure the curve as having a 1900 ft. radius, which is basically 3 degrees.

While I know Alon Levy is not exactly the gold standard for train related knowledge, he seems to believe that with a radius of 500 meters/1600 ft, speeds around 65-70mph could be safely achieved. I assume though that he is wrong here or is he leaving out a bunch of other variables?
(How Fast New York Regional Rail Could Be Part 3)

 

[dlerach]

Your second and third questions actually go together a bit. It's very difficult (is it even possible?) to superelevate a portion of track with turnouts/switches on it. Because you need space on each side of a curve for a spiral from maximum superelevation back to flat, Harrison is very limited in how much cant it can support due to the interlockings on each end. As no trains skip Newark (and with the nonstop NYP-WAS Acela one train per day skipped Newark Penn), that penalty is not very severe. Even if the interlockings are addressed, though, I don't think that Dock bridge can support high speeds in its current state. I'm not sure what degree of rehab it would need, but I imagine it wouldn't be trivial.

Addressing your last point: there is a formula to determine a curve's maximum speed, which depends on three variables: cant (superelevation), cant deficiency (unbalanced superelevation) and the degree of curvature.

The sum of the curve's cant and the train's cant deficiency (superelevation and unbalanced superelevation) divided by the product of the degree of curvature and .0007 provides the square of the solution. In other words, perform the above operations and then take the square root. As you wrote above, a curve that is 3°/1900 ft/550 meters would have a maximum speed of 65 mph assuming 6 inches of superelevation and 3 inches of cant deficiency, or 4 inches of superelevation and 5 inches of cant deficiency.

 

[jis]

The new station at Pawtucket between Attleboro and Providence, named Pawtucket/Central Falls, will be inaugurated in January 2023.

https://www.valleybreeze.com/townne...cle_0e924f6e-7a56-11ed-b72c-cb816e8618ac.html

 

[BlackDiamond]

The new station at Pawtucket between Attleboro and Providence, named Pawtucket/Central Falls, will be inaugurated in January 2023.

https://www.valleybreeze.com/townne...cle_0e924f6e-7a56-11ed-b72c-cb816e8618ac.html

I imagine this will strictly be an MBTA commuter rail stop.

 

[jis]

In the context of NEC infrastructure improvement I found this very interesting document on truck stability studies and monitoring requirements development in the Acela I timeframe:

https://casetext.com/federal-regist...h-speed-and-high-cant-deficiency-operations-1

 

[cocojacoby]

In the context of NEC infrastructure improvement I found this very interesting document on truck stability studies and monitoring requirements development in the Acela I timeframe:

https://casetext.com/federal-regist...h-speed-and-high-cant-deficiency-operations-1

There is a lot of information here but one thing that jumped out at me was this statement: "The Task Force recommended that standards for Class 9 track be removed from this subpart and that the maximum allowable speed for Class 8 track be lowered from 160 m.p.h. to 150 m.p.h."

Would this affect Amtrak's 160 mph plans? I believe that the NEC is mostly Class 7 and Class 8 in the few planned 160 mph sections.

 

[jis]

There is a lot of information here but one thing that jumped out at me was this statement: "The Task Force recommended that standards for Class 9 track be removed from this subpart and that the maximum allowable speed for Class 8 track be lowered from 160 m.p.h. to 150 m.p.h."

Would this affect Amtrak's 160 mph plans? I believe that the NEC is mostly Class 7 and Class 8 in the few planned 160 mph sections.

Remember this was when Acela I was getting deployed.

There is an equivalent study going on right now which is likely to increase the permitted underbalance (which will allow somewhat higher speeds on curves) and will permit 160mph for Acela 21s but not for Acela 1s. That document is under development I suppose and is not available as yet, or at least I have not been able to find it yet.

 

[Fenway]

I imagine this will strictly be an MBTA commuter rail stop.

Without question

Basically, the new Pawtucket/CF station will fill in the void of South Attleboro being closed 2 years ago from neglect.

South Attleboro SHOULD have been a viable transit hub but RIPTA claimed for years they could not enter Massachusetts and GATRA offered little service.

 

[Cal]

Basically, the new Pawtucket/CF station will fill in the void of South Attleboro being closed 2 years ago from neglect.

Yes, however South Attleboro is coming back, so really it's replacing the really old Pawtucket station that hasn't been in use in a long time.

 

[jis]

Yes, however South Attleboro is coming back, so really it's replacing the really old Pawtucket station that hasn't been in use in a long time.

I think Pawtuckett will provide the focal point for connectivity from off NEC RI by bus, which for various internecine bickering between RI and MA, apparently cannot go to South Attleboro.

 

[CJIMI]

I took the Acela Express from Philadelphia to New Haven last Dec. 10. It was nice to turn on the Speedometer App on my smartphone, and see that the train went over 150 mph, north of Trenton. However, the app also showed my history, where I had clocked the Thalys high speed train from Brussels to Paris last October at 218 mph. Took just over an hour and twenty minutes from Brussels to Paris. That same trip, when I first took it in 1986 took almost 5 hours.

 

[Fenway]

Yes, however South Attleboro is coming back, so really it's replacing the really old Pawtucket station that hasn't been in use in a long time.

I think Pawtuckett will provide the focal point for connectivity from off NEC RI by bus, which for various internecine bickering between RI and MA, apparently cannot go to South Attleboro.

When South Attleboro opened in 1990 the late Lou Schwechheimer, GM of the AAA Pawtucket Red Sox, wanted to establish a shuttle that the team would subsidize to make it easier for fans closer to Boston to attend games. He told me RIPTA would love to do it but could not as being self-insured the buses could not enter Massachusetts and GATRA had no interest.

RIPTA finally offered limited service but it was shocking how neglected the station was.

https://milesintransit.com/2015/11/15/south-attleboro/
I have no doubt Pawtucket/CF station will succeed.

 

[Fenway]

I took the Acela Express from Philadelphia to New Haven last Dec. 10. It was nice to turn on the Speedometer App on my smartphone, and see that the train went over 150 mph, north of Trenton. However, the app also showed my history, where I had clocked the Thalys high speed train from Brussels to Paris last October at 218 mph. Took just over an hour and twenty minutes from Brussels to Paris. That same trip, when I first took it in 1986 took almost 5 hours.

London St-Pancras to Paris Gare du Nord covers 214 miles in 2 hours and 20 minutes

The issue is New Haven to New Rochelle and there is no easy solution if indeed there is one.

In September 2018 while working for the NHL Bruins I took an overnight train from Beijing to Shenzhen that took around 9 hours - the distance was similar to going from Boston to Tampa