Number of sleeper cars (Lake Shore Limited)

[Suze10860]

Not sure where to post this - my apologies if this is not the correct spot.

Taking the Lake Shore Limited, round-trip in April from New York Penn Station to Chicago Union Station and we have booked a roomette each way. I understand that at some point (in New York state) the LSL from NY meets up and connects with the LSL from Boston.

Are there always the same number of sleeper cars on the train? Is there one sleeper car (with 12 roomettes) from NY, and one sleeper car (with 12 roomettes) from Boston, for a total of 24 roomettes? O are there sometimes (or always?) more than one sleeper car from each city?

Also, is there a particular order in which the cars of the two trains connect? Do all sleeping car passengers share the one dining car/lounge?

I have a very strong curiosity about what this trip has in store for us. I'm so excited!

Thanks.

 

[pennyk]

I will defer to those who travel on the Lakeshore Limited more often than I do. They likely will have more and better information.
Every time I have traveled on the Lakeshore LImited, there have been 2 sleeper cars in the NY section and one sleeper car in the Boston Section. The dining car/sleeper lounge will be shared by all sleeper car passengers and it travels with the NY section of the train. The cafe car travels with the Boston section. Going towards Chicago, the 2 sections will combine in Albany and going eastbound, the 2 sections will separate in Albany. Between Chicago and Albany, the train will have a cafe car and sleeper lounge.

 

[jis]

Normally the Boston section is the front part of the combined train with the Boston Sleeper as the first car. The New York section is in the rear with the two NY Sleepers and the Baggage Car bringing up the rear. The Coaches are in the middle of the combined train.

 

[neroden]

Jis is correct. One detail: the cafe car is actually half cafe, half business class (so there's business class to Boston and not to NYC).

 

[Suze10860]

Thank you all very much.

 

[bratkinson]

I'm on #48 right now having just left CHI 35 minutes ago. I was stunned to find there's only ONE NY section sleeper tonight! In the 22-23 years I've been regularly riding this train with Viewliners, I've NEVER seen only one NY sleeper! Needless to say, it seems to be fairly full out of CHI. The handful of empty rooms will likely get filled later tonight.

Given that this is the slowest time of the year for travel, not just Amtrak, presumably the 2nd NY sleeper will be restored come March or April. Assuming the car does NOT sell out each trip, there really is no need for a 2nd NY sleeper Jan-Mar. But even if it does sell out most nights, would the extra 3-5 passengers in a 2nd sleeper justify the cost of running it, maintaining, and staffing it? Watching the numbers to determine what should and should not be provided is wise management regardless of who is at the top.

 

[Suze10860]

Thanks for posting. I appreciate the information.

It's interesting to me that the week my husband and are are traveling is not busier or more high demand - especially heading out of the New York city area.

We both work in schools and must work around school vacation. The week we are going to Chicago is the week before Easter - a very traditional "Spring Break" off from school. As I was doing my research before buying the tickets I was a little surprised that I got them both ways at the lowest bucket price. I thought the beginning of April would be a busier time to travel. For example, my past go-to vacations of choice (before we bought our future retirement home and committed to spending most off-time there) were Disney World and cruises out of NY, and we would avoid doing either in April. Both are always at a real premium for this particular week - expensive and crowded.

I'll be interested to see how crowded our trains actually are.

 

[Bonser]

I'm on #48 right now having just left CHI 35 minutes ago. I was stunned to find there's only ONE NY section sleeper tonight! In the 22-23 years I've been regularly riding this train with Viewliners, I've NEVER seen only one NY sleeper! Needless to say, it seems to be fairly full out of CHI. The handful of empty rooms will likely get filled later tonight.

Given that this is the slowest time of the year for travel, not just Amtrak, presumably the 2nd NY sleeper will be restored come March or April. Assuming the car does NOT sell out each trip, there really is no need for a 2nd NY sleeper Jan-Mar. But even if it does sell out most nights, would the extra 3-5 passengers in a 2nd sleeper justify the cost of running it, maintaining, and staffing it? Watching the numbers to determine what should and should not be provided is wise management regardless of who is at the top.

The more service one provides the more customers one gets.

 

[neroden]

Thanks for posting. I appreciate the information.

It's interesting to me that the week my husband and are are traveling is not busier or more high demand - especially heading out of the New York city area.

We both work in schools and must work around school vacation. The week we are going to Chicago is the week before Easter - a very traditional "Spring Break" off from school. As I was doing my research before buying the tickets I was a little surprised that I got them both ways at the lowest bucket price. I thought the beginning of April would be a busier time to travel. For example, my past go-to vacations of choice (before we bought our future retirement home and committed to spending most off-time there) were Disney World and cruises out of NY, and we would avoid doing either in April. Both are always at a real premium for this particular week - expensive and crowded.

I'll be interested to see how crowded our trains actually are.

It used to be busier. Destruction of food service has cut ridership and revenue. The train not going to NY for three months caused further losses.

 

[fdaley]

I'm on #48 right now having just left CHI 35 minutes ago. I was stunned to find there's only ONE NY section sleeper tonight! In the 22-23 years I've been regularly riding this train with Viewliners, I've NEVER seen only one NY sleeper!

Are we sure the second sleeper wasn't just bad-ordered for this particular run? If this is a regular change, it's a huge deal -- and a terrible sign about how the loss of dining service is affecting the demand for sleeper space. The New York section of Lake Shore has regularly had two sleepers since the Viewliner cars were introduced in the mid-90s. (It has sometimes carried a third sleeper when the Boston sleeper wasn't running -- e.g., during a few periods when the Boston section was replaced by a connecting train.)

 

[OBS]

Are we sure the second sleeper wasn't just bad-ordered for this particular run? If this is a regular change, it's a huge deal -- and a terrible sign about how the loss of dining service is affecting the demand for sleeper space. The New York section of Lake Shore has regularly had two sleepers since the Viewliner cars were introduced in the mid-90s. (It has sometimes carried a third sleeper when the Boston sleeper wasn't running -- e.g., during a few periods when the Boston section was replaced by a connecting train.)

Very good question.

 

[bratkinson]

Are we sure the second sleeper wasn't just bad-ordered for this particular run?

I was somewhat surprised that the single sleeper Wednesday night was not filled as I had thought it would be. There were 3 roomettes that were never occupied from what I could tell. And given that in Chicago, I didn't see any confused passengers getting a different roomette than they thought they'd be getting - ie, 2nd sleeper bad ordered, it seems to be only a single NY sleeper for now. I just now used Amsnag to check the next 30 days and except for tomorrow night, the 8th, roomettes are at the lowest bucket price across the board. The Capitol Ltd is almost all low bucket prices for the next 30 days as well. However...I suspect that prices are intentionally kept at the lowest bucket longer than usual meaning that they don't increase to the next bucket at, say, 25% sold (or whatever the criteria is). That way, more rooms are sold during the slow season of the year, except for Florida trains.

 

[me_little_me]

I was somewhat surprised that the single sleeper Wednesday night was not filled as I had thought it would be. There were 3 roomettes that were never occupied from what I could tell. And given that in Chicago, I didn't see any confused passengers getting a different roomette than they thought they'd be getting - ie, 2nd sleeper bad ordered, it seems to be only a single NY sleeper for now. I just now used Amsnag to check the next 30 days and except for tomorrow night, the 8th, roomettes are at the lowest bucket price across the board. The Capitol Ltd is almost all low bucket prices for the next 30 days as well. However...I suspect that prices are intentionally kept at the lowest bucket longer than usual meaning that they don't increase to the next bucket at, say, 25% sold (or whatever the criteria is). That way, more rooms are sold during the slow season of the year, except for Florida trains.

Did you look at the prices then? Might be that people felt they could hire a private jet for the cost.

 

[Thirdrail7]

And given that in Chicago, I didn't see any confused passengers getting a different roomette than they thought they'd be getting - ie, 2nd sleeper bad ordered, it seems to be only a single NY sleeper for now.

The second NY was indeed shopped off inbound 49 and did not make its turn to 48. It is fortunate that they did have enough room to accommodate all of the passengers and they didn't have to accommodate misconnects off 30. Otherwise, 48 would have had a significant delay or some passengers would have been downgraded.

That being said, you do see a lot of this:

But even if it does sell out most nights, would the extra 3-5 passengers in a 2nd sleeper justify the cost of running it, maintaining, and staffing it? Watching the numbers to determine what should and should not be provided is wise management regardless of who is at the top.

This is why you have "right-sized" train. Years ago (I'm talking early 90s), we used to build trains to capacity (+10%) the day of departure. The turnaround points typically had protect equipment available from the pool if the return train needed more capacity. This is similar to what they are doing with the coach section of the LSL. They have extra equipment in NYP and ALB to add to the base consist if necessary.

 

[printman2000]

What are the current NY sleeper numbers? 4811/4911 and 4812/4912?

 

[Siegmund]

If you go back far enough you can find a time when the LSL didn't have so much traffic: the one time I rode it in 1988, I remember being startled at the NY section having only one sleeper (I don't recall the coach count, but I do recall having the impression the Boston section was the bigger half of the train.)

Of course at that time, LSL was the "secondary" NY-Chicago train, and the Broadway was running with 3+ sleepers (I remember being told the Broadway and Capitol quit combining at Pittsburgh because the combined train would have exceeded the allowed 18-car maximum. Don't know where the 18-car rule came from, presumably something to do with platform lengths in the 80s, as there are pictures from the 70s of 22 or 23 cars.)

Dropping the Broadway may well be the biggest shocker I've ever seen out of Amtrak.

 

[Suze10860]

What are the current NY sleeper numbers? 4811/4911 and 4812/4912?

So, I'm definitely learning stuff on this forum. For instance, this post sort of explained to me what the "car" number on my ticket means.

We're in car 4912 from New York to Chicago, and car 4811 from Chicago to New York. Somehow the numbers make a little more sense to me now.

 

[Thirdrail7]

If you go back far enough you can find a time when the LSL didn't have so much traffic: the one time I rode it in 1988, I remember being startled at the NY section having only one sleeper (I don't recall the coach count, but I do recall having the impression the Boston section was the bigger half of the train.)

Of course at that time, LSL was the "secondary" NY-Chicago train

You have to remember, at that time, the Ne York section of the LSL and all Empire service originated at NYG. This was not an Amtrak station or facility. It was a turnaround point. The main section of the LSL traveled between CHI-ALB since those areas had the personnel, parts and storage area to accommodate the length of the train.

Dropping the Broadway may well be the biggest shocker I've ever seen out of Amtrak.

Indeed but when the cuts were proposed, no one in the impacted states did anything to advocate for the train. It was indeed a shame since, at the time, the Broadway was operationally better. Conrail ran the heck out of that train and it had the superior OTP. Additionally, it wasn't subjected to the lake effect snow storms.

 

[Bonser]

You have to remember, at that time, the Ne York section of the LSL and all Empire service originated at NYG. This was not an Amtrak station or facility. It was a turnaround point. The main section of the LSL traveled between CHI-ALB since those areas had the personnel, parts and storage area to accommodate the length of the train.

What about Amtrak adding a sleeper to the Pennsylvanian and attach it in Pittsburgh to the CL? PAX on the sleeper could simply stay in their room for the 4 hour layover before moving on to Chicago at midnight. Somewhat like Boston to Albany to Chicago with a longer layover. It wouldn't be as good as bringing back the Broadway Limited but it would be an improvement over waiting in station for CL.

 

[west point]

Pennsylvanian sleeper would need several things.
1. 3 sleepers to cover the service
2. Understand that a switch well need reinstalled at Pittsburgh that NS removed. That will allow west bound Capitol to back up to sleeper to connect. Also for capitol to drop sleeper eastbound and Pennsylvanian to back onto it. That maneuver will be awkward.
3. Capitol will need a Superliner transition dorm - sleeper on rear to attach to single level sleeper.

 

[printman2000]

So, I'm definitely learning stuff on this forum. For instance, this post sort of explained to me what the "car" number on my ticket means.

We're in car 4912 from New York to Chicago, and car 4811 from Chicago to New York. Somehow the numbers make a little more sense to me now.

Your post also helped me. Looks like the numbers I posted are the current sleeper numbers. We are in 4811 and 4911 both ways and since you are in the 4912 it tells me we are in the sleeper closest to the dining car.

Last time I took the LSL, was in 4910 but that was back when they ran a stub train to Boston from Albany.

 

[jiml]

Pennsylvanian sleeper would need several things.
1. 3 sleepers to cover the service
2. Understand that a switch well need reinstalled at Pittsburgh that NS removed. That will allow west bound Capitol to back up to sleeper to connect. Also for capitol to drop sleeper eastbound and Pennsylvanian to back onto it. That maneuver will be awkward.
3. Capitol will need a Superliner transition dorm - sleeper on rear to attach to single level sleeper.

To Point 1: Sounds like the ideal application for a Viewliner bag-dorm. I'm pretty sure the need for a baggage car on this route has been discussed previously. Now if only they had some unused ones.
To Point 3: The bolder move might be to "single-level" the Capitol, then "Superliner" the Cardinal and only run it to WAS as has been done before.

 

[Thirdrail7]

To Point 1: Sounds like the ideal application for a Viewliner bag-dorm. I'm pretty sure the need for a baggage car on this route has been discussed previously. Now if only they had some unused ones.

The Pennsylvanian already has a baggage car and the view-dorms aren't ADA compliant so they can't be used to accommodate passengers.

To Point 3: The bolder move might be to "single-level" the Capitol, then "Superliner" the Cardinal and only run it to WAS as has been done before.

There's isn't enough single-level equipment to do this right now. Additionally, stub ending the Cardinal at WAS had a meaningful impact on revenue, particularly in the NYP-CVS, NYP-WSS and NYP-CHS market.

 

[jiml]

The Pennsylvanian already has a baggage car and the view-dorms aren't ADA compliant so they can't be used to accommodate passengers.



There's isn't enough single-level equipment to do this right now. Additionally, stub ending the Cardinal at WAS had a meaningful impact on revenue, particularly in the NYP-CVS, NYP-WSS and NYP-CHS market.

Wasn't aware of either issue - thanks. To the latter, I had thought there was more single-level equipment than Superliners (while acknowledging the shortage of both). I really enjoyed my only Cardinal Superliner experience, but was only going to Washington.

 

[neroden]

If you go back far enough you can find a time when the LSL didn't have so much traffic: the one time I rode it in 1988, I remember being startled at the NY section having only one sleeper (I don't recall the coach count, but I do recall having the impression the Boston section was the bigger half of the train.)

Of course at that time, LSL was the "secondary" NY-Chicago train, and the Broadway was running with 3+ sleepers (I remember being told the Broadway and Capitol quit combining at Pittsburgh because the combined train would have exceeded the allowed 18-car maximum. Don't know where the 18-car rule came from, presumably something to do with platform lengths in the 80s, as there are pictures from the 70s of 22 or 23 cars.)

Dropping the Broadway may well be the biggest shocker I've ever seen out of Amtrak.

The politics in that period were bad. Practically every decision Thomas Downs made was stupid, possibly for his entire career. Claytor had handed him a giant mess of deferred maintenance off the back of a decade of poor ridership, and the retention toilet mandate was arriving, along with an outright car shortage the likes of which Amtrak never saw before or since. But Downs's decisions were *still* bad and stupid even given that context.

The later loss of the Three Rivers was also an error. Gunn was faced with an impossible situation and was generally fighting for the right things against "break everything up and sell it off for scrap" political pressure, but it was still an error.