NYC Amtrak tracks

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as much as we/I complain about late trains etc, to think of all the Amtrak/Acela/LLRR/NJT trains coming and going from NYP on all the tracks it really is amazing...
 
Joel N. Weber II said:
PRR 60 said:
http://www.richegreen.com/NJTV4.pdf
Click to expand...
IIRC, the proposal that would relocate a subway line and then connect NYP to GCT would connect tracks 1-5 of NYP to GCT. That diagram shows tracks 1-5 being some of the shortest platforms at NYP. Is there any potential for lengthening the platforms on tracks 1-5 if the GCT connection gets built?
Click to expand...
Well first off, the most recent proposal would take the connection from the new NYPSE station, not NYP.

That said, I can't imagine why they would want to connect off of tracks 1-5 of NYP, if they were to build such a connector. That would make no sense and be quite expensive, as you've now got to tunnel under buildings, however you should already be under any subways, as the current tunnels to Queens are at the same level and under the subways.

The correct answer to connect NYP to GCT would be to install cutoffs on one of the current outbound tunnels to Queens and on one of the inbound tunnels. This would greatly reduce any building costs as one wouldn't need to tunnel across Manhattan to Park Ave. One could simply break off the existing tunnels around 5th and Madison and then tunnel up to GCT under Park. Granted it's still far more complicated than how I make that sound there, but it is still less complicated and cheaper than to start from NYP.
 
Joel N. Weber II said:
PRR 60 said:
http://www.richegreen.com/NJTV4.pdf
Click to expand...
IIRC, the proposal that would relocate a subway line and then connect NYP to GCT would connect tracks 1-5 of NYP to GCT. That diagram shows tracks 1-5 being some of the shortest platforms at NYP. Is there any potential for lengthening the platforms on tracks 1-5 if the GCT connection gets built?
Click to expand...
Tracks 1 through 4 are going to be lengthened eastwards about two car lengths worth anyway so as to accommodate full length NJT trains adequately, irrespective of whether any further extensions to the east are built.

AlanB said:
Well first off, the most recent proposal would take the connection from the new NYPSE station, not NYP.
Click to expand...
That cannot happen until Water Tunnel number 1 is decommissioned and New York DEP agrees to hand over the necessary space to enable such an extension beyond NYPSE. As it is they had to move NYPSE westwards by a 100 yards or so and get rid of all tail tracks to stop encroaching on the Water Tunnel and the protected space around it.

That said, I can't imagine why they would want to connect off of tracks 1-5 of NYP, if they were to build such a connector. That would make no sense and be quite expensive, as you've now got to tunnel under buildings, however you should already be under any subways, as the current tunnels to Queens are at the same level and under the subways.
Click to expand...
Actually the original PRR plans apparently had a third pair of tunnels planned under 31st St. connecting into tracks 1-5/6. So extending under 31st St is not that far-fetched an idea. The original Plan G indeed had track 1 - 5 connecting to GCT (that was set 1) there was another set from the other end of the station(i.e. 18-21, or alternatively some additional tracks beyond 21, but I have not seen that mentioned in the MIS AFAIR, this was set 2).

The correct answer to connect NYP to GCT would be to install cutoffs on one of the current outbound tunnels to Queens and on one of the inbound tunnels. This would greatly reduce any building costs as one wouldn't need to tunnel across Manhattan to Park Ave. One could simply break off the existing tunnels around 5th and Madison and then tunnel up to GCT under Park. Granted it's still far more complicated than how I make that sound there, but it is still less complicated and cheaper than to start from NYP.
Click to expand...
Notwithstanding the seeming theoretical correctness of that thought, it has actually been studied in detail and it was determined that it would be cost prohibitive and too disruptive to try to build that. Actually even the connection from 1-5 to GCT proved to be too disruptive to the Lex Ave subway, of which one track would have required a slight relocation. The problem with trying to connect the existing east river tunnels to GCT is (a) putting in a bell-mouth where there is none in a bored tunnel lined with thick concrete and steel rings, under a bunch of structures overhead is highly non-trivial. It will most certainly require shutting down the bored tunnel that is to be opened up to place the bell mouth into it for a very very long time, and (b) The tunnels altitudes (well depths) do not match up well with GCT. Think trying to connect the #7 subway tunnels to GCT and you will see what I mean, and the need to move the Lex Ave line slightly still remains.

Also, given the property ownership laws in the US, and witnessing what happened to cause NYPSE to shrink to fit the footprint of 34th St.,I wonder what sort of hoops one would have to jump through to get permission to dig a curved tunnel under any existing building. The curve, whether it be from the existing tunnels or as proposed by the original Alt G would both involve some encroachment into building's footprints, though apparently doing anything from the existing tunnels would involve much greater and more significant encroachments. This issue was never really fully addressed in the Alt G plan AFAIK.

Anyway, the bottom line is that the engineers and consultants who looked at these possibilities appear to have disagreed with you in their assessment of relative complications.
 
AlanB said:
If it didn't load at all, then you may not have Adobe Acrobat installed on your computer.
If by not being able to read it you mean that it was too small, then you need to magnify it to be able to see things. The default magnification is about 9%. To really see the tracks at Penn well, you'll need to get up to around 700% to 800%.

I suggest that you increase the magnification slowly though, going to 50 the first time and then by 100's and that you keep centering Penn Station each time you've increased the magnification.
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All I saw on the fully downloaded PDF was lines...no reference points...nothing else. And I DO have Acrobat Reader. Even at 100% magnification.
 
Bierboy said:
All I saw on the fully downloaded PDF was lines...no reference points...nothing else. And I DO have Acrobat Reader. Even at 100% magnification.
Click to expand...
Once you have it loaded into Acrobat, search (using Acrobat's search function) for the string "EMPIRE". The first three occurrences of it should get you in the vicinity of Pennsylvania Station. I would recommend something like 400% magnification if you really want to see anything legibly on a laptop screen.

Hope that helps.
 
jis said:
Also, given the property ownership laws in the US, and witnessing what happened to cause NYPSE to shrink to fit the footprint of 34th St.,I wonder what sort of hoops one would have to jump through to get permission to dig a curved tunnel under any existing building. The curve, whether it be from the existing tunnels or as proposed by the original Alt G would both involve some encroachment into building's footprints, though apparently doing anything from the existing tunnels would involve much greater and more significant encroachments. This issue was never really fully addressed in the Alt G plan AFAIK.
Click to expand...
The section of the MBTA Red Line near Porter Square (which is probably the deepest tunnel in the greater Boston area) was built in the 1980s and does probably pass under a bunch of buildings, but it may very well be significantly deeper than the NYP platform tracks.

Or maybe those landowners just didn't hire lawyers who were quite as good as Harvard University managed to find, because the relocated Harvard Station that was built at a similar time has a curve which really is a bit too tight to work well from a railroad perspective, in order to placate Harvard University. But I'm not aware of anything of Harvard Law School's calibre that's so close to NYP.
 
The maps have been taken offline. One still remains online, but it is old and has some errors in it.

http://www.richegreen.com/NYCTrackMapV3.pdf

LIRR can use tracks 11 and 12??? It may be third-rail equipped, but I've never seen LIRR use it, and the fact that the West End Concourse doesn't serve 11 or 12 makes me think it never does.
 
I'm not sure about copy right issues and such, but I have a JPEG image of the track layout which I can PM you. I would be hesitant to post it up on line since it could be copyrighted.
 

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