NYP Makeover - could MSG be forced to move?
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The Sicilian
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Madison Square Garden is not moving anywhere anytime soon. They just spent millions to refurbish it. All the seats are new, the corridors have been undated and new upscale food and beverage concessions have moved in. It is very nice. We go to see NY Ranger games there a couple of times each season and occasionally in the playoffs (if we can get tickets) .
Those who would criticize Madison Square Garden are envious. They cannot afford the $200 ticket price so they bash it.
The logical move for a new Penn Station is directly in back of MSG at the old main NYC post office location. That building was designed by the same architect that designed the original Pennsylvania station and it too is constructed of granite and marble with Greek columns. The project has been planned, designed and laid out. (You can view the plans online). All that's needed are the funds.
Those who would criticize Madison Square Garden are envious. They cannot afford the $200 ticket price so they bash it.
The logical move for a new Penn Station is directly in back of MSG at the old main NYC post office location. That building was designed by the same architect that designed the original Pennsylvania station and it too is constructed of granite and marble with Greek columns. The project has been planned, designed and laid out. (You can view the plans online). All that's needed are the funds.
The NYC planning department apparently disagrees. MSG won't be moving soon, but the city planning department publicly discussed limiting the occupancy permit for MSG to 15 years. The SecondAvenueSagas blog had a post on this several days ago. My comment on the blog comments is that they are frequently very NYC and NYC subway centric and many think little of the NJ commuter & NEC concerns, so keep that in mind when reading the blog.
To put into perspective, a billion dollars, while a lot of money, is still only a modest amount in NYC real estate at current prices. The MTA, IIRC, is getting about $1 billion in air rights for the Hudson Yards. There are high end luxury condos in new highrises in NYC going for $40 to $50 million or more a pop. If the city decides to renew the permit for MSG for 15 years and the Dolans investment is only good for that long, the city might say, tough, the Dolans should have locked in a longer term permit before making the investment. Although the Dolans may not see it that way.
One thought that has occurred to me is if the air rights to Penn Station were for sale today on the open market, would they go to a sports arena? Would they instead to a mixed use highrise building which would set aside more space above the current 2 mezzanine levels for a station, but build a high end office and residential building over NYP that takes advantage of the transit access to LIRR, NJT, NEC to WAS and BOS, and in the future Metro-North New Haven and Hudson commuter lines? The backers for the sport arena may still outbid other developers, but the air rights for NYP today would bring in serious money.
I don't agree. Take a look at the plans for the expanded West End Concourse and think how it will offer new options and paths for getting in out of NYP more quickly for tracks 5 to 21. It will provide an alternate direct corridor for connections between Amtrak and LIRR, the ACE subway lines, and 2 new access points from the street.
What Amtrak should do, once the new West End Concourse opens, is to staff it, so people can use it as an second access point to getting on Amtrak Regionals and Acelas. Then those who know their way through NYP can head directly to the West End Concourse from the subway, LIRR, or the street to bypass the ever more crowded Amtrak concourse space.
BCL
Engineer
Madison Square Garden is a public face of New York City as much as the Statue of Liberty or the Empire State Building.
As important as Penn Station is to the economy of the region, ask most Americans what's the big train station in NYC. They'll probably say Grand Central and have never heard of Penn Station.
N
Nathanael
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MSG needs to go. It's moved before (twice!!), it can move again. I suggest putting it back in Madison Square where it belongs. 
Penn Station can't move, thanks to the tunnels. Even with Moynihan it can't really move, the situation is far too constrained by the narrow, column-filled platforms. To get good results it has to be rebuilt on site without all those columns on the platform.
Penn Station can't move, thanks to the tunnels. Even with Moynihan it can't really move, the situation is far too constrained by the narrow, column-filled platforms. To get good results it has to be rebuilt on site without all those columns on the platform.
Logical maybe, just maybe, given the current circumstances with MSG not moving.
But it is not logical in terms of location. The only logical place for Penn Station is between the 2 subway lines and only 1 block away from yet another subway line. Being west of 8th Avenue puts the station in no man's land.
And I'm not envious of MSG, I've been in there many times for various events.
I've only been to MSG once (to attend a Bowdoin College hockey game in 1971), but I've been traveling through Penn Station since I was a kid. I don't remember the old Penn Station, my memories start at about 1969 or so when I was in high school. I thought the new station was cool. It was Trantor! It was like something out of a science fiction novel! It was like taking the train was like something out of the future, not some thing that old folks did! There was that escalator that took you down from street level (was it 32nd st?) where you headed straight into the ticket vending area complete with a Soleri board with the train departures as you descended. It was the future. (Remember, that at this time, the rain departure board at 30th Street in Philly was a chalkboard, which I also though was pretty cool, because whoever it was who wrote on it kept the arrivals and departures up to date, with very elaborate penmanship. Who needs computers?)
I grew up in Philly, I loved those underground rat-maze concourses, but in Philly, they were mostly pretty ugly, old, and dimly lit (with the exception of the area aroud Suburban Station). NYP was modern and fresh and brightly lit. Of course, that was 40 years ago and my tastes in architecture have changed. Also, Penn Station was busy in 1969, but it is even more busy today -- I think nothing of spending $5 for a redcap to avoid the cattle line at boarding now, back then it didn't seem so bad. The rat maze probably needs to be fixed. I'm not sure how to do it, but as a citizen, I think it' worth the $$$.
I grew up in Philly, I loved those underground rat-maze concourses, but in Philly, they were mostly pretty ugly, old, and dimly lit (with the exception of the area aroud Suburban Station). NYP was modern and fresh and brightly lit. Of course, that was 40 years ago and my tastes in architecture have changed. Also, Penn Station was busy in 1969, but it is even more busy today -- I think nothing of spending $5 for a redcap to avoid the cattle line at boarding now, back then it didn't seem so bad. The rat maze probably needs to be fixed. I'm not sure how to do it, but as a citizen, I think it' worth the $$$.
D T Nelson
Lead Service Attendant
I remember when the new Madison Square Garden opened in 1968. It opened with a Bob Hope variety show which was broadcast nationwide and which I watched. The only thing I remember about it was Hope telling a joke that approximately went, "Lots of people have train sets in the basement but the one they have here is out of this world."
Funny how you can remember a thing like that 45 years later. But I remember that it really impressed me that they had built an arena over a train station.
Funny how you can remember a thing like that 45 years later. But I remember that it really impressed me that they had built an arena over a train station.
Eventually a deal will be worked out with MSG. The arena is not going anyplace after they just spent a billion dollars on it. They're just putting pressure on the Garden to cough up some dough to improve the station underneath. If you read the document that was released it specifically allows the railroads (LIRR-NJT and Amtrak) to work out a deal on their own with MSG. Some money will change hands, MSG will somehow allow designers to create better access and more light into the station and all will be settled. They really need to get the Post Office project moving to allow Amtrak to move over there. That will relieve a lot of the pedestrian congestion and open up room.
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The only way that will help significantly is if Amtrak turns off the Solari board and all the monitors in the current station. Otherwise, save maybe many of those riding the long distance trains, most corridor riders will ignore Moynihan and assemble right where they do now for boarding. The post office is one block away from where it needs to be. Moynihan only serves the 8th Avenue line marginally adequately. It does nothing to serve the 7th Avenue line, and it is now 2 Avenues away from the 6th Avenue line.
Your frequent rider isn't walking a block out of their way, only to walk back half a block just to board a train that they could wait for right where they do today. This is why the LIRR & MTA laughed at the suggestion that they move there after David Gunn rejected the idea for Amtrak. Then along came NJT & George Warrington. George saw a monument that could be created and he agreed to move NJT there. When he left NJT, cooler & smarter heads rejected that idea and bailed out.
So the focus returned to Amtrak and they pushed to get Amtrak to agree. And while it would be nice for those going on the LD trains, in general it is a silly idea and a waste of money. Improving the West End concourse under 8th Avenue is a good idea. But who really wants to be halfway between 8th & 9th Avenues, only to have to walk back an half a block to 8th Avenue just to board their train? And upon exiting an Amtrak train, unless you are transferring to another Amtrak train, I'm sure you're not going to walk that extra 1/2 block walk just to admire the new station, before walking back that same 1/2 block just to get to a subway or cab.
It's great that NYC Planning Commission put a limit on the future of MSG to allow for a new plan for Penn Station. A billion dollars over 15 years is pretty small change in the world of sports arenas, and it looks like the political will to make a real change there is growing. I agree with the article from the Times that the renewal of the lease needs to be an open process rather than a back room deal.
One thing to watch for is NYC's Municipal Arts Society's unveiling tomorrow (Wednesday) of four concepts for a new Penn Station. The MAS hired four architects to imagine a completely new Penn Station. The Times had a preview today, http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/arts/design/thinking-big-four-visions-of-a-new-penn-station.html?_r=0. Note that none of these is official and for the most part look completely imaginary and not at all official, but it suggests that there is a constituency for a new Penn Station.
As an architect myself I'm a bit disappointed in what I saw in the preview; only the design by SHoP seemed realistic and inspiring at the same time. SOM's design takes over an additional two blocks and seems to put an immense amount of additional uses (housing and offices over a rooftop park?) floating above. Diller Scofidio looks like so much sci-fi zoominess and I couldn't get a sense at all of the fourth design by H3 Hardy.
Of course by the time MSG's lease runs out the current Penn Station will have been around even longer than the original, and there will be a movement to have it landmarked as an important example of mid-(20th) century modern design.
I guess the full proposals will be available on the MAS website, www.mas.org, sometime on Wednesday.
One thing to watch for is NYC's Municipal Arts Society's unveiling tomorrow (Wednesday) of four concepts for a new Penn Station. The MAS hired four architects to imagine a completely new Penn Station. The Times had a preview today, http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/arts/design/thinking-big-four-visions-of-a-new-penn-station.html?_r=0. Note that none of these is official and for the most part look completely imaginary and not at all official, but it suggests that there is a constituency for a new Penn Station.
As an architect myself I'm a bit disappointed in what I saw in the preview; only the design by SHoP seemed realistic and inspiring at the same time. SOM's design takes over an additional two blocks and seems to put an immense amount of additional uses (housing and offices over a rooftop park?) floating above. Diller Scofidio looks like so much sci-fi zoominess and I couldn't get a sense at all of the fourth design by H3 Hardy.
Of course by the time MSG's lease runs out the current Penn Station will have been around even longer than the original, and there will be a movement to have it landmarked as an important example of mid-(20th) century modern design.
I guess the full proposals will be available on the MAS website, www.mas.org, sometime on Wednesday.
Just moving most of the Amtrak operations into the Farley building will open up a lot more space for the commuters in the present station. That whole middle waiting area can be removed and opened up for the commuters. And there will be a cab waiting area for for Amtrak in the farley building if you look at the plans. Moving across 8'th avenue is not like they're moving a mile away. It's across the street. it'll work fine for Amtrak.
N
Nathanael
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The current MSG (the fourth?) will be demolished sooner or later, guaranteed. The only questions are when, and how much ransom will be paid to the Dolans.
The current situation in Penn Station is unacceptable, mainly because the platforms are too narrow and there are giant columns in the middle of them; this makes for a dangerous situation. As the passenger loads increase, people are going to get more and more frustrated by this. The platforms simply can't be widened effectively without demolishing MSG, due to the columns.
Far more people use Penn Station than use MSG, and that ratio is only increasing.
It's perfectly possible that MSG will be rebuilt a block away, or even rebuilt on the same location after being closed for a year or two, and it's perfectly possible that it will be 20 or even 30 years before this happens, because the US is really bad at fixing things.
But the current MSG WILL be demolished because it is in the way; the need for Penn Station improvements is only going to get more and more and more acute; and demolishing and rebuilding MSG is multiple orders of magnitude cheaper than relocating Penn Station's platforms and tracks!
If the city screws up the negotiations by granting an indefinite permit, then the city will end up having to buy the Dolans out for full price rather than discount price, which is all that this kerfuffle is about: how much money the Dolans will extort from the city. But one way or another, MSG has to go. Personally I think they should move it back to Madison Square. ;-)
The current situation in Penn Station is unacceptable, mainly because the platforms are too narrow and there are giant columns in the middle of them; this makes for a dangerous situation. As the passenger loads increase, people are going to get more and more frustrated by this. The platforms simply can't be widened effectively without demolishing MSG, due to the columns.
Far more people use Penn Station than use MSG, and that ratio is only increasing.
It's perfectly possible that MSG will be rebuilt a block away, or even rebuilt on the same location after being closed for a year or two, and it's perfectly possible that it will be 20 or even 30 years before this happens, because the US is really bad at fixing things.
But the current MSG WILL be demolished because it is in the way; the need for Penn Station improvements is only going to get more and more and more acute; and demolishing and rebuilding MSG is multiple orders of magnitude cheaper than relocating Penn Station's platforms and tracks!
If the city screws up the negotiations by granting an indefinite permit, then the city will end up having to buy the Dolans out for full price rather than discount price, which is all that this kerfuffle is about: how much money the Dolans will extort from the city. But one way or another, MSG has to go. Personally I think they should move it back to Madison Square. ;-)
jis
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I am curious.... Do you actually use Amtrak corridor service or is it just your opinion based on looking at diagrams?
This will be a phenomenally bad thing for the frequent riders just to put varnish on the go of politicians. As Alan has mentioned, it will require most frequent users of the Amtrak corridor service to have to trudge an extra avenue block just for the pleasure of using Moynihan Concourse. As long as Amtrak does not restrict access from the current concourse most corridor users will not use the Moynihan concourse. but I know, people who don't use the system and are quintessential armchair planners don;t care about such inconveniences like what is good for the real users of the system. oh well....
I've been in Penn Station many, many times. I lived in NYC. If you walk right out of the Amtrak portion of the station you're on 8'th Avenue. Directly across the street is the Farley building. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. At the other end of the corridor you have a huge hike at DC to get to the trains. Doesn't seem to be chasing away all those "corridor" users there.
What is this "huge hike" in DC to which you refer?
As to the original topic, my thinking is this: There may be a situation in which MSG is eventually booted (or in which they might opt to move). We're nowhere near that, but it's not impossible to think of a mix of political and financial factors that could see MSG booted. The flipside is that you would likely see a massive office tower go in to replace it.
As to the original topic, my thinking is this: There may be a situation in which MSG is eventually booted (or in which they might opt to move). We're nowhere near that, but it's not impossible to think of a mix of political and financial factors that could see MSG booted. The flipside is that you would likely see a massive office tower go in to replace it.
jis
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My friends, many of who are regular users of Penn Station for their business travels on Amtrak NEC seem to uniformly disagree with you. But as I said, that is usually not important for armchair planners.
As for MSG, given a proper mix of financial and political encouragement they will move. But that is not in the cards right now. All that is being argued is whether to limit their contract extension or not. On the whole money would be better spent on moving MSG and building a station head house in its location, than doing this Moynihan thing IMHO.
Unfortunately, as Anderson said, even if they do move, there is no telling exactly what will come in its place. After the Fulton Street Transportation Center fiasco, there is no telling how much stomach New Yorkers will retain for another one. Currently Moynihan Phase II even does not have a single penny allocated for it. So one step at a time. Though Moynihan would be better developed mostly as a mall and hotel complex as part of the Hudson Yard development extension, than a train station IMHO. It should not get transportation money for the bulk of the development. There are better and more useful ways of spending such money to actually improve the transportation infrastructure instead of building pointless edifices.
Yeah and your "friends" are the experts. Enough with your "armchair planners" superiority crap. The corridor users will adapt quickly to crossing over one street to enter the new station. The Amtrak portion of Penn is way over on the 8'th Avenue side anyway. These aren't daily commuters like LIRR/NJT passengers. A good portion hop on right on cabs to get to and from the station anyway. I used to regularly travel to DC on business a few times a month myself from Penn. I really could care less what side of 8'th Avenue the station is. And no way is MSG moving any time in the near future. Not after spending a billion dollars on the latest renovation.My friends, many of who are regular users of Penn Station for their business travels on Amtrak NEC seem to uniformly disagree with you. But as I said, that is usually not important for armchair planners.
As for MSG, given a proper mix of financial and political encouragement they will move. But that is not in the cards right now. All that is being argued is whether to limit their contract extension or not. On the whole money would be better spent on moving MSG and building a station head house in its location, than doing this Moynihan thing IMHO.
Unfortunately, as Anderson said, even if they do move, there is no telling exactly what will come in its place. After the Fulton Street Transportation Center fiasco, there is no telling how much stomach New Yorkers will retain for another one. Currently Moynihan Phase II even does not have a single penny allocated for it. So one step at a time. Though Moynihan would be better developed mostly as a mall and hotel complex as part of the Hudson Yard development extension, than a train station IMHO. It should not get transportation money for the bulk of the development. There are better and more useful ways of spending such money to actually improve the transportation infrastructure instead of building pointless edifices.
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jis
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Well hopefully they won't find the money for Moynihan for long enough so that a better solution can be found.
Actually as long as no transportation funding is used for gussying up the Farley building, and the whole thing is funded by real estate interests, I am OK with it, even if it causes a few Amtrak passengers to go through an extra walk. I would prefer to see transportation money be used to actually increase capacity rather than produce nothing of any great use, other than a glorified mall with a row of ticket windows and stairs to trains.
Actually as long as no transportation funding is used for gussying up the Farley building, and the whole thing is funded by real estate interests, I am OK with it, even if it causes a few Amtrak passengers to go through an extra walk. I would prefer to see transportation money be used to actually increase capacity rather than produce nothing of any great use, other than a glorified mall with a row of ticket windows and stairs to trains.
Yes, the post office is directly across the street from the Amtrak side of Penn Station. But it is NOT going away! It is going to remain right there. The area of Farley that Amtrak is getting is behind the public front area of the post office, in what used to be a sorting area for the main post office.
So you are not just crossing 8th Avenue, be it above ground or below, you are walking halfway to 9th Avenue to reach the potential new Amtrak waiting area. So if one is arriving by a 7th Avenue subway, one now has to walk the equivalent of 4 and a 1/2 city blocks (walking from 1 Ave to the next is like walking 3 streets) to reach the waiting area. And that I truly believe is NOT something that corridor riders are going to like, or tolerate.
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One of the original scenarios was to move MSG to the rear of Farley, such that it wasn't too far from the mega transportation options available in that area, so that a new Penn Station could be built in the correct place.
Unfortunately the city didn't sweeten the pot enough for the Dolan's to make it worth building a new arena and moving, nor did the city provide the other types of incentives like "your lease will not be renewed", so the Dolan's opted to spend less money refurbishing the existing MSG and public transit riders got Moynihan and its impracticalities dumped on them.
And you don't do it now from 7'th Avenue? You have to go down the escalator and then basically walk the equilivant of most of the length of the station to get to the Amtrak ticket windows and trains which are next to 8'th Avenue. It's the same thing. And the Farley plans have the station in the front of the building. That glass concourse is right behind the Post Office ticket windows. Plus once again the corridor riders are NOT commuters. It's a different usage. Many take cabs to leave or arrive at the station. The cab stands are going to be right next to the concourse. The 8'th Avenie subway is right there also. Is it a perfect plan? Of course not. But what is? Waiting 25 years untiil MSG is obsolete and then hoping somebody wants to build a new Penn Station that has nothing above it to negate the costs? Sorry, it's not going to happen.
Actually if one doesn't need ticketing services, one can board any Amtrak train right from the 7th Avenue side. But yes, otherwise one needs to walk to the 8th Avenue side. Which is why adding still more of walk is the wrong thing to be doing.
And those ticket windows, the end of them is 1/3rd of the way down the block. They can't cut out the work area right behind the windows. That means that the entire Amtrak waiting area encompasses the area from 1/3rd of the way down the block from 8th Avenue to about 2/3rds of the way down the block. That means that someone arriving from the 7th Ave subway walks close to halfway to 9th Avenue. Then they have to walk back to 8th Avenue just to get down to the platform. Ridiculous! I know that other than if I plan to access the Club Acela, I will never use Moynihan.
Better to leave things as they are now and spend that money when its finally found on new North River tunnels or expanding the tracks & platforms. Moynihan serves no useful purpose other than to spend money and provide something pretty for politicians to point at.
And there are plenty of daily commuters on Amtrak. That's what the Keystones are for in fact, daily commuters. And there are many more monthly pass holders who board Regionals each day to & from NYP. I've not seen such a breakdown, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that 1/3rd of Amtrak's daily average of 60K moved at NYP every day are daily commuters. The rest are LD travelers and Business people.
Even worse, one of the things that makes a station is the stores & food stands. The stores & food stands in Moynihan won't be able to stay in business. Anyone detraining is going to detrain into the current station, meaning that they will visit those stores. Not the ones in Moynihan, so right off the bat they're going to have half the potential traffic of a store in the current station. I don't see that as a sustainable model.
Does NY need a new NYP? Absolutely! Without question. But Moynihan isn't the correct answer to that problem. Better to keep the status quo than to waste a dime beyond the current and needed expansion of the 8th Avenue concourse. Anything more than that small part of the Moynihan plan is not what passengers need and it most certainly isn't something that Taxpayers should be supporting IMHO. I'm with Jishnu, the only way that Moynihan gets used by most Amtrak passengers is if Amtrak puts up gates at all the current entrances and only allows those holding NJT tickets through.
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