Obama on Amtrak

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[moderator/administrator hat off]

I disagree with President Bush as to his attitude on Amtrak. But I remind myself that providing some folks with a train to ride around on is not his responsibility.
Well as Governor of Texas, he publicly stated that it was the Fed's responsibility to provide a train for people to ride around on. It wasn't until he became President that he suddenly changed his tune.

The first responsibility of the president is to keep us safe. The current administration has done that.
Sadly, there are over 2,000 people who used to be here in the NYC area, that were they still alive would argue that he's failed to do that.

Civics 101 , the Congress makes the laws, not the President.
And if we're going to go down that road, then the first job of the President as outlined in the Constitution is to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. He even swears to do this when he's inaugurated. This administration IMHO has done as much as it possibly can to circumvent and undermine the Constitution of the United States.

[moderator/administrator hat on]

In closing let me just remind everyone to keep replies to any and all of the posts in this thread calm and reasonable, and devoid of personal attacks on any member or guest. We are all entitled to our opinions. That is one of the things that makes this country great.
 
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[likewise hat off]

(1) Amen, (2) Amen (and add thousands of dead American G.I. men and women who were ordered to go tilting at foreign windmills to that 9/11 casualties number), and (3) AMEN to the Constitutional issue, to the point where he has specifically put in writing when signing some of that legislation that he is going to deliberately disregard whatever parts he chooses to of the LAWS that Congress passed, and in the meantime has put us so far into debt that our great-great-grandchildren will still be paying it off, if we are lucky. If we are not lucky, then the rest of the world will eventually, sooner probably rather than later, stop buying U.S. Treasury I.O.U's, recognizing that they are becoming worthless, and the dollar will dissolve into worthless paper and we will have a catastrophic depression (not a recession) as a result.

I am not saying that Obama or Clinton or the presumptive Republican nominee is the solution, but there sure as **** has GOT to be CHANGE from the current national "leadership". I frequently have found myself wishing that "None of the Above" as a voting option would be available, and that it would work to force the system to present us with some other options as far as people to vote for.

Certainly Obama could be just as much of a chameleon as the one we have now been stuck with for two terms, but at least as far as Amtrak and passenger rail is concerned, his current statements ADDED TO his history of prior behavior thereto certainly makes him more attractive at least on that issue than the other candidates, And he also didn't go for the stupid-voter-bait gas-tax holiday that would have nothing but negative consequences as far as the federal deficit AND reducing fuel consumption is concerned. And he seems to think that continuing to flush obscene amounts of our tax dollars down the Iraq toilet with no exit plan in sight is nonsense, and I have to agree with that.

Everybody seems to have an opinion on these things, and everybody is entitled to their opinion, but even as a lifelong registered Republican, I really don't give a hoot what "THE PARTY" thinks or wants or professes to believe. "What Will Fix The Awful Mess We Are In?" Is my question, not "who is the republican, or democrat candidate?". This is not supposed to be the Republican States of America OR the Democrat States of America, , it's supposed to be the UNITED States of America, and so far all I see is both Parties and their lobbyists, and spin doctors, and out-and-out liars trying, successfully, to polarize everybody to the point that all we're collectively interested in is strangling the throats of everybody in "the other party", instead of rationally trying to put the brakes on a currently uncontrolled downward slide of the Country. The slogans, "Vote (insert party here) to WIN in November", are just so much hogwash. Show me how you are going to fix what is so obviously broken. I don't care what Party the person is from.

[hat-back-on likewise]
 
I would agree that the full price of automobile ownership is not felt by the driver, but I don't think greenhouse gases are the externality that needs to be focused on. The two biggest areas I see is charging to low of a rate for crude oil, and highway cost allocated through gas taxes and the general tax funds as opposed through a user fee on the road itself. To me these two are the biggest problems causing gross pricing in automobile use

The problem of oil being sold for to low a price in my opinion has two main reasons. First is a large portion of the world oil supply is owned by national governments. These governments do not face the same trade-offs as a private business would, and have completely different time preferences, usually much shorter. Governments are more concerned with staying in power, look at the major oil exporting nations (Saudi Arab, Iran, Russia, Venezuela), do you believe these governments are making rational long-term business decisions, or just trying to stay in power. For private oil companies they would be accused of price gouging if they said they were not going to pump at full capacity and save more oil to sell later. If a oil company did this in the United States I guarantee the federal government would be treating to take the land to ensure the oil was used now. I'm beginning work on my PhD in forestry economics and this is a similar time preference trade off faced by timber company, do they harvests timber early for pulpwood or wait till the trees are full grown and get lumber. The biggest difference I see is that timber companies are allowed to make this decision on their own oil companies are not. Oil companies are given every incentive to pump the oil as fast as they can, tomorrow be damned

The second one is how highways are paid for. A gas tax is a terrible way to pay for highways, it doesn't factor in demand and use of the road itself. Several people have suggested a congestion tax, well user fees based on the demand for the road is just that. Inter-city highways and roads could charge a much higher fee than rural roads. Road operators and consumers would face more realistic pricing for these roads, and roads should only be built were there is demand for them that would pay for the road, not were a politician was able to put an earmark in budget. Roads builders should have to pay market rates for the interest on the debt issued to finance the roads, this doesn't happen now. Currently different levels of government issue bonds at the municipal or federal government rates which are much lower than market rates of interest for a business. This does two things first it crowds out private investment, and second it allows for project that only marginally make sense to be built. On a multi-billion dollar road project a few hundred basis points can make a big difference in the amount of interest paid. The road builders should also have to pay market rate for the land, and not simply steal it through eminent domain. Highways have received so main breaks that they are really a very poor use of resources this would be made clearer when a strong system of property rights are enforced.

I know many of you would prefer a new system where the federal government does massive investment into mass transit. While I think there is a place for government in encouraging this development with close to $10 trillion in debt I don't see the money being available anytime soon. But I do believe private money could flow into rails if peoples automobile habits were not subsides to such a high degree.

Just me thoughts
 
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we rec'd our $1200 in tax relief this week and i promptly booked 2 tickets on the southwest chief from kc to la in october. it's our 10th anniversary trip and we are so excited! and happy to do our part to help the american economy, of course...
 
Because of the simple fact that the Founding Fathers never envisioned a government this big (not to be taken as positive or negative in nature, by the way) the Constitution was not created with the concept of massive loans or balanced budgets in mind. In those days, the concept of paying off any debt was a matter of fact proposition. Bankruptcy today is an annoying thing to go through for anybody or any thing. 250 years ago, it was ruinous. You would be black marked and never loaned or credited a pot to pee in if you defaulted on debt.

As a result, there is no problem, at least a directly notable one, to paying off bonds by issuing more bonds. Realize, at about 2.5% these days, the US Government has access to some of the cheapest loans around. Now, that doesn't mean doing so is eternally perpetuating. But the fact of the matter is, this country, regardless of what you might think, is about 500 miles up **** creek in a leaky raft with neither pail nor paddle.

To be very fair, and I am not a big Bush fan (Actually, I personally hate the man, but thats not relevant.), most of the problems we are having are not really his fault, nor are they particularly connected to the war. In some respects, without the war, we'd be even deeper into the creek. Most of the problems we are having are connected to four things.

First of all, economies expand and contract their rate of growth. We were, and would be, in a naturally contraction at around this time if it wasn't for the other two things. Nobody is responsible for this part, its just the natural cycle.

Second, oil is reducing in supply (you may not actually believe this, but with Russia and Saudi Arabia both trying to produce oil as fast as they can, their output is going down!) at the same time that several large countries are industrializing and mobilizing, so the price of oil has sky-rocketed, taking most other commodities with it. Metals were recently at record highs. Bush is not responsible for this, nor is the war.

Third, Americans made a huge mistake and started loaning money based on sub-prime mortgages. They loaned money with tight constraints for things that added little value, they pushed up housing prices unnaturally, they cashed out home equity like a bank, and generally started living more and more on a credit economy. The natural contraction was enough to tighten the belts just enough to go past the constraints, and it has turned into a cascading systems failure. Major financial institutions (Bear-Stearns, for instance) started to crush under the weight of all of this. This means the whole market is crushed, bruised, and scared to loan money- just at a time when every body REALLY needs it. Bush is not responsible for this, even if you think they turned a blind eye to too much of it. In good times, everybody does that.

Fourth, and this part is partially Bush's fault, is the herculean idiocy that is the concept of corn Ethanol in fuel. Whomever thought up this has so little knowledge of economics we should execute them for thinking of it, execute the person who listened to them for being criminally dumb enough to listen to this, and severely beat anybody who tried to promote it as a good idea! Here's the concept. Corn is a commodity, like many others, that is geared to produce on average something approaching the exact amount needed, and fallow fields are fallow to protect the earth from over farming- a necessity. A fluctuation in demand of 5% can bring it from record lows to record highs.

People decided we had a lot more capacity than needed, a fallacy. So we decided to use this capacity and help our poor farmers by creating a new market for corn. YAY! But wait... you've now increased demand for this a good 30-40%! Fallow fields are no longer fallow, depleting nutrients! Not only that, but the price that can be charged for it has skyrocketed! Well jeeze, this causes people to use other grains- raising their prices, too. So the price of all grains have gone up heavily, dramatically increasing the cost of producing a wide variety of staple food items.

So here is where we are. First of all, our economy is naturally contracting, second, energy costs for producing or transporting anything is going up, third, money is hard to come by, and fourth, food has gone up in price. This is increasing the price of anything, forcing consumers to sacrifice any optional purchase in the name of required purchases. So the economy is seeing much less sales of luxury items, which in turn reduces profits, puts people out of work, makes people poorer, and they buy even less luxury items, and spiral.

The only way to recover from this is to pour huge amounts of money into the economy. There is no point where this particular spiral can reach equilibrium, unfortunately, without external intervention.
 
GML, I agree with almost everything you said right up to your concluding paragraph. There I have one main question and one comment. The question: Where is the money coming from? The comment: Even if we had it, it would not be the right solution.
 
In my opinion, the best solution is another "New Deal" in which the government pours money into the American economy by putting people to work building new high-speed rail infrastructure, new or expanded toll roads, tolls on interstate highways, better long distance rail infrastructure, new equipment, and especially more urban mass transit systems. I would like to see them pay for this via the tolls on interstate highways, and appropriately raised tolls on roads in general.
It costs about 70 cents for every 30 miles on the Garden State Parkway. I think it should cost more like $10. The cost of me running my car on the road is not even remotely covered under the current schemes. I also a major advocate of so-called congestion charging. I applaud Jon Corzine for having the guts to suggest raising tolls on NJ roadways, and I really cheer on Michael Bloomberg for having the guts to suggest congestion charging in NYC. There are excellent ways to get around Manhattan, and none of them involve personal transport vehicles.
I agree entirely. When we have a transportation system that is crumbling beneath us something should be done. HSR is the cheapest and most economical system, constructing this system under a public works program along the lines of the New Deal would put people to work and help our transportation problems. Once the HSR is in place we should go back and fix the roadways and the airports. The most sucessful transportation system needs all three modes.

A nation's economy is dependent on its transportation system. When people and goods can't move about freely and easily the economy suffers. Our economy is based on the flow of money, when goods can't get to buyers and buyers can't get to goods that flow slows or stops. Revitalizing transportation is paramount to our countries survival.
 
On the subject of ethanol, what ***** thought it was a good idea to make fuel out of food? What are we supposed to do when we turn all of our fuel into gas to drive around and we can't afford to eat?

Another thing, Why is one of the most important jobs in the world about the only one you can't be fired from for poor job performance? If any other employee messed up as bad as past government officials have they would have been fired on the spot, no ifs, ands or buts. I think we should be able to hae a nationwide vote to fire any elected official for poor job performance, this way politicians might get something accomplished since they would be subjected to what everyone else is.

Finally our transportation system is a mess due to government interference. The government should be banned from subsidizing any private industry. Most of what we call government services are private industries that are receiving government funds. If a company is going to receive government subsidies it should be required to become a non-profit organization and break even or operate at a slight loss. If congress had never started subsidizing air travel and had of been reasonable with the scope of the interstate system and had of never tried to regulate the railroads Amtrak would not have been needed, we would have hundreds of thousands of passenger trains streaking across the country at high speeds, freight trains would be running over 100mph, our economy would be stronger, and high oil prices would be no problem for us. Government meddling has caused this problem so our government should have to fix it. Any business will do what ever is necessary to attract customers and make a profit, with out government meddling a company will expand and improve service in natural and logical ways that are profitable.
 
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On the subject of ethanol, what ***** thought it was a good idea to make fuel out of food? What are we supposed to do when we turn all of our fuel into gas to drive around and we can't afford to eat?
Good point. The advantage of Food is that you can eat it.

The advantage of Petroleum is that you can find it.

Ethanol has neither advantage. You take a lot of Petroleum and use it to grow a Food crop, and then refuse to eat it, burning it instead to recover part of the energy that was actually in the Petroleum that was used up in growing the crop.

Does anybody smell a Boondoggle here?
 
On the subject of ethanol, what ***** thought it was a good idea to make fuel out of food? What are we supposed to do when we turn all of our fuel into gas to drive around and we can't afford to eat?
Good point. The advantage of Food is that you can eat it.

The advantage of Petroleum is that you can find it.

Ethanol has neither advantage. You take a lot of Petroleum and use it to grow a Food crop, and then refuse to eat it, burning it instead to recover part of the energy that was actually in the Petroleum that was used up in growing the crop.

Does anybody smell a Boondoggle here?
It is a typical political "We must look like we are doing something" In the army in training they tell you, "Do something even if its wrong." That may be good adivce if you are going to be shot at either way, but it is very bad advice for almost every other situation.
 
On the subject of ethanol, what ***** thought it was a good idea to make fuel out of food? What are we supposed to do when we turn all of our fuel into gas to drive around and we can't afford to eat?
Good point. The advantage of Food is that you can eat it.

The advantage of Petroleum is that you can find it.

Ethanol has neither advantage. You take a lot of Petroleum and use it to grow a Food crop, and then refuse to eat it, burning it instead to recover part of the energy that was actually in the Petroleum that was used up in growing the crop.

Does anybody smell a Boondoggle here?
It is a typical political "We must look like we are doing something" In the army in training they tell you, "Do something even if its wrong." That may be good adivce if you are going to be shot at either way, but it is very bad advice for almost every other situation.
I think that part of the ethanol idea grew out of the fact that for many years the Government had been paying farmers either to not grow crops at all, or helping to subsidize what they grew so that they could make a living. So someone got the bright idea that since we were already paying for crops, that maybe we should just use the excess to come up with alternative fuels rather then just letting it rot like was happening.

Problem now is that the excess is largely gone due to increased world demmands for food and the ethanol project. So what may have started as a potentially good idea has now backfired and gone the other direction. But no one wants to the be the first to stand up and say, "this isn't working. Let's drop this idea and go back to square one."
 
On the subject of ethanol, what ***** thought it was a good idea to make fuel out of food? What are we supposed to do when we turn all of our fuel into gas to drive around and we can't afford to eat?
Good point. The advantage of Food is that you can eat it.

The advantage of Petroleum is that you can find it.

Ethanol has neither advantage. You take a lot of Petroleum and use it to grow a Food crop, and then refuse to eat it, burning it instead to recover part of the energy that was actually in the Petroleum that was used up in growing the crop.

Does anybody smell a Boondoggle here?
It is a typical political "We must look like we are doing something" In the army in training they tell you, "Do something even if its wrong." That may be good adivce if you are going to be shot at either way, but it is very bad advice for almost every other situation.
I think that part of the ethanol idea grew out of the fact that for many years the Government had been paying farmers either to not grow crops at all, or helping to subsidize what they grew so that they could make a living. So someone got the bright idea that since we were already paying for crops, that maybe we should just use the excess to come up with alternative fuels rather then just letting it rot like was happening.

Problem now is that the excess is largely gone due to increased world demmands for food and the ethanol project. So what may have started as a potentially good idea has now backfired and gone the other direction. But no one wants to the be the first to stand up and say, "this isn't working. Let's drop this idea and go back to square one."
Law of unintended consequences.

I have to say, I was ready to puke at Hilary when she told O'Riley that she would be happy to increases his taxes so she could give the middle class a tax break. Why is it that raising taxes always seems to be the solution for the left? I don't even really want to step into this discussion, to be honest.

I was in my home state of Oklahoma a few months back. I've noticed the vast amounts of land that USED to be covered with wheat that no longer is being cultivated. Shame really. I could go on and tell you that it's because of farm subsidies and how they have really ruined the farm economy, but I don't feel like a big debate.

GML, I disagree with President Bush on perhaps 30-40% of policy (I happen to have been for and continue to be for the war, for moral reasons (genocide is a terrible thing) rather than because of suspected WMD's).

Still to say you HATE someone, really bothers me. I disagree with the Clintons a great deal, I'm not sure I even know where Obama really stands on anything (does anyone, really?) but I don't hate them (or even James Carvill who does give me the willies). Hate is a tough thing for one human being to feel towards another and certainly it does a lot to cloud objectivity and rationality in my opinion. (ok, guess I can say I hate Hitler and a few other select human beings who are clearly scum).

We (most of us anyway) are all human beings, just trying to do our best. I can't imagine being president and having that 24/7/365 microscope on me. Sure, one chooses to be president, but you can choose things for noble reasons and still be uncomfortable doing what you have chosen to do.

The hate that spills from both the right and the left, the polarization that screams from the left and the right, has and will do more to damage this nation in the long run than this economic blip.
 
On the subject of ethanol, what ***** thought it was a good idea to make fuel out of food? What are we supposed to do when we turn all of our fuel into gas to drive around and we can't afford to eat?
Good point. The advantage of Food is that you can eat it.

The advantage of Petroleum is that you can find it.

Ethanol has neither advantage. You take a lot of Petroleum and use it to grow a Food crop, and then refuse to eat it, burning it instead to recover part of the energy that was actually in the Petroleum that was used up in growing the crop.

Does anybody smell a Boondoggle here?
It is a typical political "We must look like we are doing something" In the army in training they tell you, "Do something even if its wrong." That may be good adivce if you are going to be shot at either way, but it is very bad advice for almost every other situation.
I think that part of the ethanol idea grew out of the fact that for many years the Government had been paying farmers either to not grow crops at all, or helping to subsidize what they grew so that they could make a living. So someone got the bright idea that since we were already paying for crops, that maybe we should just use the excess to come up with alternative fuels rather then just letting it rot like was happening.

Problem now is that the excess is largely gone due to increased world demmands for food and the ethanol project. So what may have started as a potentially good idea has now backfired and gone the other direction. But no one wants to the be the first to stand up and say, "this isn't working. Let's drop this idea and go back to square one."
Law of unintended consequences.

I have to say, I was ready to puke at Hilary when she told O'Riley that she would be happy to increases his taxes so she could give the middle class a tax break. Why is it that raising taxes always seems to be the solution for the left? I don't even really want to step into this discussion, to be honest.

I was in my home state of Oklahoma a few months back. I've noticed the vast amounts of land that USED to be covered with wheat that no longer is being cultivated. Shame really. I could go on and tell you that it's because of farm subsidies and how they have really ruined the farm economy, but I don't feel like a big debate.

GML, I disagree with President Bush on perhaps 30-40% of policy (I happen to have been for and continue to be for the war, for moral reasons (genocide is a terrible thing) rather than because of suspected WMD's).

Still to say you HATE someone, really bothers me. I disagree with the Clintons a great deal, I'm not sure I even know where Obama really stands on anything (does anyone, really?) but I don't hate them (or even James Carvill who does give me the willies). Hate is a tough thing for one human being to feel towards another and certainly it does a lot to cloud objectivity and rationality in my opinion. (ok, guess I can say I hate Hitler and a few other select human beings who are clearly scum).

We (most of us anyway) are all human beings, just trying to do our best. I can't imagine being president and having that 24/7/365 microscope on me. Sure, one chooses to be president, but you can choose things for noble reasons and still be uncomfortable doing what you have chosen to do.

The hate that spills from both the right and the left, the polarization that screams from the left and the right, has and will do more to damage this nation in the long run than this economic blip.
I'm a little hesitant to chime in on this discussion because it is drifting from the real subject of whether Obama will deliver on the closest thing to a campaign promise favoring Amtrak interests. I hope he does, if he is elected.

But what I'm going to say next has to do with the morale of our country. I do not think I have ever lived a period in my life quite like this one (55 years old). I don't think I know a person who feels, nor do I ever hear anyone share a sense optimism that our country has a bright future. It all seems terribly futile, our culture is degrading, our morals are degrading, the rest of the (United Nations) world hates us, England/Canada/Australia are our only friends but they're like weak ninnies on the world scene; we'll never resolve the middle east, and we can't leave, and we won't; but we will continue to be attacked by those who hate us, and it will never get better. We're uneducated, becoming less healthy, our local economies can't do anything on a grand scale, even though other (almost third world) countries can build bullet trains.

Well, I could go on with this but I think all of us have heard this kind of sentiment. It sounds like moral defeat and it really makes me discouraged and also wonder where our national pride has gone. There's still opportunity for the individual to make it very big, but our nation seems set on a path of doom and gloom.
 
Robert, as I said, it isn't relevant for this forum. If you'd like to discuss my position on politics, my aim screen name is in my profile. Or, if you insist, PM me. But I don't want to get into a political fight on the board.
 
Robert, as I said, it isn't relevant for this forum. If you'd like to discuss my position on politics, my aim screen name is in my profile. Or, if you insist, PM me. But I don't want to get into a political fight on the board.
Makes two of us GML... :)

I used to be much more political but as I've gotten older I've tired of it greatly. It's just another game, unfortunately and I'd rather play scrabble. :)

On a train....
 
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The two biggest areas I see is charging to low of a rate for crude oil, and highway cost allocated through gas taxes and the general tax funds as opposed through a user fee on the road itself.
The second one is how highways are paid for. A gas tax is a terrible way to pay for highways, it doesn't factor in demand and use of the road itself. Several people have suggested a congestion tax, well user fees based on the demand for the road is just that.
First of all, the gas tax IS a user fee. You can't use the roads without using gas and paying the tax. You are right in that it doesn't factor in demand, but it CERTAINLY factors into the use of the road. Some people may say it isn't uniform, since your payment for use of the road varies with your vehicle's fuel efficiency. That is true, and is very good. That gives an incentive to have a fuel efficient vehicle, which I think is in everyone's best interest. So all in all, I fail to see how the gas tax is TERRIBLE way to pay for highways.

(There is also the issue of the gas tax primarily funding just our State, US, and Interstate highways, whereas the property tax primarily funds local roads. We have more local roads, but they're not as expensive to build as highways. Certainly the property tax makes some sense in the fact that local roads are the access to property and thus increase property values. But I think a gas tax increase to decrease the property tax burden would be a good thing. What the balance between gas taxes and property taxes funding local roads is, I don't know. There are good arguments on both sides, which I'd rather not debate now. I'm just bringing this up to acknowledge your comment about the general tax supporting roads.)

I think congestion pricing is on its way in. What seems to be the new trend is to build new lanes on a freeway and put congestion pricing on those, but keep the existing lanes "free". (One project just opened in Tampa, FL) That way people can pay to use the road quickly, or sit in slow traffic for free. Both speed (heavy congestion) and money (tolls) are ways of curtailing demand.

Do mass transit systems have congestion pricing? (not talking Amtrak here) I can't really think of any that do, although maybe a couple do. So do you think mass transit should have congestion pricing too? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

The road builders should also have to pay market rate for the land, and not simply steal it through eminent domain.
Back 50 years ago, maybe this was true, I don't know. But you have two things very wrong now. First, the "road builders" don't buy land. They build roads for the government (aka the taxpayers). The government buys land for use in infrastructure for taxpayers. Second, the land is not "stolen". There are many Federal and State laws now that protect landowners and give them many layers of appeals for the money offered to them for their land. Land and property are appraised and that is what is offered to the owner. It is as good of an approxiamation for market rates as we have right now. (I would actually advocate for the government paying 25% (or so) more than the appraisal, both to make sure they're getting fair market price, and to compensate them for a move not of their own choice.)

I know many on this board are no fans of highways, but at least don't throw out completely bogus statements like this. There are so many other legitimate reasons to be against highways and their funding as they now stand, that there is no need to make stuff up.
 
Do mass transit systems have congestion pricing? (not talking Amtrak here) I can't really think of any that do, although maybe a couple do. So do you think mass transit should have congestion pricing too? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I don't believe that all do, but there are many that do. The LIRR & MN charge a premium if you're arriving into Manhattan during the morning rush hour or departing from Manhattan during the evening rush hour. NJT doesn't exactly charge a premium, but they do have a discounted off peak roundtrip ticket. The DC Metro charges more during rush hours. Chicago's METRA has a weekend ticket that is a real bargin, especially for railfans. :)

There may be a few more examples, but those are the one that leap to mind right now.
 
The road builders should also have to pay market rate for the land, and not simply steal it through eminent domain.
This statement shows a complete misunderstanding of the process.

Eminent Domain is always the last resort. If a state agency went to court to start a condemnation proceedings and could not show that they had already made a market rate or better, usually a lot better, offer for the property the judge would send them out the door a lot faster than they came in. In these prceedings the owner is paid for the land. Eminent Domain means a forced sale. It does not mean theft. In addition to state and local highway agencies, utility comanies, including gas and oil pipeline companies and railroads also have the right to use eminent domain. It can be used for tranmission lines, and railroad lines, and necessary auxiliary facilities such as electric substations, pipeline pumping stations, railroad yards and expansion thereof, etc. but not for such things as off-site office buildings, etc. that do not of necessity have to be located on or adjacent to the facility.
 
The road builders should also have to pay market rate for the land, and not simply steal it through eminent domain.
This statement shows a complete misunderstanding of the process.

Eminent Domain is always the last resort. If a state agency went to court to start a condemnation proceedings and could not show that they had already made a market rate or better, usually a lot better, offer for the property the judge would send them out the door a lot faster than they came in. In these prceedings the owner is paid for the land. Eminent Domain means a forced sale. It does not mean theft. In addition to state and local highway agencies, utility comanies, including gas and oil pipeline companies and railroads also have the right to use eminent domain. It can be used for tranmission lines, and railroad lines, and necessary auxiliary facilities such as electric substations, pipeline pumping stations, railroad yards and expansion thereof, etc. but not for such things as off-site office buildings, etc. that do not of necessity have to be located on or adjacent to the facility.
No, I completely understand the process, but we do have a philosophical difference. A market price is contingent on both sides entering into the transaction of their own free will. When I buy something at Wal-Mart it is a market transaction because both sides agree to the trade. In Eminent Domain cases one side is forced to sell, hence the market price is not used. Even if the offer is generous, its still can not be considered a market price, because one side is being forced into the transaction. However, more often than not the compensation in Eminent Domain cases is not generous, its usually just enough to keep the person from fighting the case in court. Most individual homeowners do not have the time or money to defend their property rights in court. Also you are wrong about off-site office building and other purposes with the Supreme Court ruling recently in Kelo v. City of New London that Eminent Domain can be used very broadly, with very little checks and balances. My objection to Eminent Domain is very simple and is this "Taking someone else's property against their wishes is wrong, it is wrong regardless if I pay them something for it, and it is wrong if I consider it going for a good cause". This is a philosophical difference, but yes I understand the Eminent Domain process very well.

Now how does this relate to my original argument. I should have explained better what I meant be "road builders". I did not mean the actual construction crews or even the construction firms. I meant the term to refer to any combination of government, or public/private partnerships used to build roads. I was responding to an idea for a pigovian tax to fix externalities in the use and demand for automobiles. My augment was and is there is no need to for such a tax if property rights are respected, which right now they are not.
 
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JxGx78:

By your argument, we would never have a road, railroad, powerline, or any other facility that requires a continuous strip of land. I know about Kelo v New London, but that is irrelevant to what I was talking about which was Off Line facilities of private utilities and railroads.

In a previous life, I have had an occason to do a few surveys for condemnation proceedings. Shall we say it can be interesting. One of the few times I have had to do work that gives a real opportunity of being shot. Most of the time when you deal with these situations you are dealing with sore heads operating with varying levels of irrationality. There are also some businesses that own significant land that by policy choose to have any takings FROM THEN be done by condemnation procedures becuase if the court sets the price their stockholders can't quibble about them selling the land at less than fair value.
 
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They also use eminent domain for things like redevelopment of "poor" areas, something that tends to anger me to no end. The price might be fair for that moment, yes. Because it is an undesirable slum, of which there are few around. So the person who is paid this can not usually afford to find more housing. Second, in 5 years time, the property will be worth 5 times as much because the town will then resell it to developers who will put up luxury condominiums and make off like bandits. I think it is frequently abused. I don't know about where you are, George, but here in Central Jersey, it sure as heck is.
 
@ Kramerica:

Terrible might have been to strong a word to describe gas taxes, bad or less than good would have been better. Prices play a central role in society and how roads are priced goes along way in determining there use and how/where roads are built. A gas tax is a user fee, but is far inferior to charging directly for the use of the road. As you pointed out a gas tax can be avoided by buying a hybrid or a more fuel efficient car, but these people are not using less road. Perhaps a smaller car might cause less wear and tear but not any less congestion. A Hybrid SUV would cause the same wear and tear and congestion as a regular SUV. Now that might desirable to get people to use more fuel efficient cars, but the problem of highway congestion and overbuilding remains. Sure if the gas tax was set high enough some people would by induced to take mass transit, but most people would just buy more fuel efficient cars. But, charging a market determined price for the roadway would accomplish the same goal, and would be fair because it would charge people for the product they are using...the road itself. The case I tried to layout was one for privately funded, owned and operated roads, but a toll fare or congestion charge, if properly implemented could accomplish the same thing. I just have very little faith that politicians can implement and maintain such a system. Also a few post above I explained what I meant by "road builders". I meant the government, and public/private partnerships, which if it is read that way my original statement makes much more sense (I hope).
 
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They also use eminent domain for things like redevelopment of "poor" areas, something that tends to anger me to no end. The price might be fair for that moment, yes. Because it is an undesirable slum, of which there are few around. So the person who is paid this can not usually afford to find more housing. Second, in 5 years time, the property will be worth 5 times as much because the town will then resell it to developers who will put up luxury condominiums and make off like bandits. I think it is frequently abused. I don't know about where you are, George, but here in Central Jersey, it sure as heck is.
I consider any use of eminent domain for the purpose of "upgrading" or "redevelopment" of a neighborhood a CRIMINAL misuse of the concept. I would wonder if the judges who made this completely unconstitutional descision, at least I feel that it is, were on the take. It is the adult concept of the bully that says I don't like the way you look so I am going to rearrange your face.
 
Do mass transit systems have congestion pricing? (not talking Amtrak here) I can't really think of any that do, although maybe a couple do. So do you think mass transit should have congestion pricing too? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Hey Lumberg,

Another variation from what Alan mentioned...

During the most congested peak hours, our bus system operates Express trips that cost an additional 40 cents over the regular fare, so you can ride the slow local for the base fare, or get there more quickly on the Express for the fare and surcharge.

However, in looking at it in one way, it may actually counter logic. Since the bus hits its terminus faster, it can redeployed somewhere else more readily than the local. Of course, the Express bus averages a lower boardings per revenue mile figure, so it seems the surcharge is factored in to adjust for this.
 
I consider any use of eminent domain for the purpose of "upgrading" or "redevelopment" of a neighborhood a CRIMINAL misuse of the concept. I would wonder if the judges who made this completely unconstitutional descision, at least I feel that it is, were on the take. It is the adult concept of the bully that says I don't like the way you look so I am going to rearrange your face.
Not trying to dwell on this, but since you claimed to understand Kelo vs New London what you just described is not unconstitutional, at least not under the federal constitution, states will vary of course. The court ruled in Kelo vs New London that land can be seized for redevelopment specifically that land could be transfered from one private landholder to another private landholder so it can be used for redevelopment efforts. Now because of this ruling there has been a backlash with several states and cities toughing the laws on eminent domain abuse, but under the current court eminent domain has very few constitutional limits. The rub is, where do you draw the line. I say if someone owners the land they have the right to sell or not. I know this is an extreme position, but maybe if more people held it the government might respect property rights a little more.
 
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