Ohio finally starts the process for new Amtrak service

[Just-Thinking-51]

BTW, the 80/90 toll toad through Northern Ohio subsidizes surface transportation for the whole state. Back when the turnpike was built, the region was promised that eventually the tolls would go away. Alas. So we help pay for the “free-ways” all through the state.

Strange the New York Turnpike was set up the same way. The contract period end and the Governor renewed it. Getting more exits would be quite beneficial to Upstate.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Strange the New York Turnpike was set up the same way. The contract period end and the Governor renewed it. Getting more exits would be quite beneficial to Upstate.

Strange the New York Turnpike was set up the same way. The contract period end and the Governor renewed it. Getting more exits would be quite beneficial to Upstate.

The only Toll Road that I've ever seen become "Free", was the old Dallas- Ft Worth Turnpike in 1977, now part of I-30, but Texas is very busy building Toll Roads all over the State,( in Partnership with Private Investors) especially in the Major Cities!

 

[jis]

The only Toll Road that I've ever seen become "Free", was the old Dallas- Ft Worth Turnpike, now I-30, but Texas is very busy building Toll Roads all over the State,especially in the Major Cities!

I-95 through Connecticut comes to mind IIRC

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Wasn't I-80 tolled through Pennsylvania originally? And a bunch in Kentucky too.

(edit: looks like that's a no on I-80 though I think there was talk of tolling it to get $$ for maintenance)

 

[Palmland]

The only Toll Road that I've ever seen become "Free", was the old Dallas- Ft Worth Turnpike in 1977, now part of I-30, but Texas is very busy building Toll Roads all over the State,( in Partnership with Private Investors) especially in the Major Cities!

Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike, aka I-95

 

[Tlcooper44]

In my mind, Ohio might be the single area outside of the NEC and maybe California, that trains make the most sense.

The population and proximity of the major cities make so much sense for even conventional, Amtrak style passenger rail (let alone HSR or HrSR). Not only that, but they're neatly arranged into a slightly curved line, almost like Japan. .

Of course, when you look at the railroad fossils scattered around the state, this is no surprise. In my mind, Ohio has the two most impressive and beautiful train stations in the world (Cleveland and Cincinatti). Columbus, if the station still existed, would be one as well.

 

[Bob Dylan]

In my mind, Ohio might be the single area outside of the NEC and maybe California, that trains make the most sense.

The population and proximity of the major cities make so much sense for even conventional, Amtrak style passenger rail (let alone HSR or HrSR). Not only that, but they're neatly arranged into a slightly curved line, almost like Japan. .

Of course, when you look at the railroad fossils scattered around the state, this is no surprise. In my mind, Ohio has the two most impressive and beautiful train stations in the world (Cleveland and Cincinatti). Columbus, if the station still existed, would be one as well.

But until Ohioians start electing Pro-Rail Leaders, as the song says " ..You ain't going nowhere.."

 

[thully]

But the calling times are all O-Dark-Thirty with long waits for your Train @ the Station, especially in Toledo!

Living in Michigan, I’ve taken that thruway bus a few times. It’s not bad connecting from the westbound trains or connecting to the eastbound Capitol Limited if it’s on time. Getting on at midnight or off at 5-6am isn’t ideal, but is tolerable (just go to bed or get up as soon as you get on/off the train and time your sleep accordingly), and the wait in Toledo is an hour or less.

However, connecting to the eastbound Lake Shore Limited is awful - you get there at 11pm and have to wait in Toledo until 3:20 (or later if the train is late) to board. I’ve taken the Capitol and a Regional from WAS to destinations served by the Lake Shore to avoid that layover (and even if you drove/got a ride to Toledo, 3:20am is about the worst possible time to board a train).

While having a Detroit-Toledo connecting train (which actually existed in the 90s as an extension of one of the Michigan trains) would be a nicer experience than the thruway bus, it still wouldn’t address the 3:20am Lake Shore Limited departure from Toledo. It would be good to have service to Ohio regardless - hopefully at least a corridor to Cleveland as exists in the plans. Perhaps at some point they could add a train that goes further east from Michigan through Ohio, and/or one that goes Detroit-Toledo-Columbus-Cincinnati.

 

[n3rdg1rl]

...Ohio has the two most impressive and beautiful train stations in the world (Cleveland and Cincinatti).

I truly hope you mean Tower City and not the actual current Amtrak station for Cleveland. Lol!

But until Ohioians start electing Pro-Rail Leaders, as the song says " ..You ain't going nowhere.."

I'm trying! I'm trying!

 

[Tlcooper44]

I truly hope you mean Tower City and not the actual current Amtrak station for Cleveland. Lol!

I'm trying! I'm trying!

I think that goes without saying.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

A while ago, I posted a thread about the economics of budget airlines. One of the things that started it was a post I read on reddit where someone said they could fly from Cleveland to Boston non-stop for 50 dollars, so why fool around with Amtrak?
So that is what started me researching budget airlines and how they work, or don't work.
So right now, booking a few weeks out, you can get from Cleveland to Boston for that cheap.
But if you want to go from Cleveland to Columbus...the cheapest trip is $346 round-trip... with a 8+ hour layover in Newark.
And the fasted trip is three hours and $548 with a layover in Detroit.
If you want to go from Cleveland to Cincinnati, the cheapest trip is $310...with a 12+ hour layover in Newark, while the fastest trip is 3 and a half hours, and $379 roundtrip.
(Of course prices and times fluctuate, but this is fairly indicative)
In short, Cleveland->Cincincinnati is a place where Amtrak would be both way cheaper and way quicker than anything airlines can currently do.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

In short, Cleveland->Cincinnati is a place where Amtrak would be both way cheaper and way quicker than anything airlines can currently do.

Cincinnati has no airport so it a bit hard to get to. (The local airport is in Kentucky.)
Of course get the airlines to add a flight between these two points is much easier than getting a railroad service.

General agree with need for service, just not able to vote in that state. So preaching to the choir comes to mind.

 

[Palmland]

While having a Detroit-Toledo connecting train (which actually existed in the 90s as an extension of one of the Michigan trains) would be a nicer experience than the thruway bus, it still wouldn’t address the 3:20am Lake Shore Limited departure from Toledo

Wasn’t there a proposal a few years ago to route one of Amtrak’s east coast to Chicago trains via Detroit and thru Michigan?

It could be done. NYC’s Wolverine left NY at 6pm, Detroit-6:45am, Kalamazoo-9:40, Chicago- 11:20am.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Wasn’t there a proposal a few years ago to route one of Amtrak’s east coast to Chicago trains via Detroit and thru Michigan?

It could be done. NYC’s Wolverine left NY at 6pm, Detroit-6:45am, Kalamazoo-9:40, Chicago- 11:20am.

I know that those are lyrics of a Steely Dan song!
"When you put me on the Wolverine down to Annandale"

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Wasn’t there a proposal a few years ago to route one of Amtrak’s east coast to Chicago trains via Detroit and thru Michigan?

Yes but it required a flipping of the departure time of the two east bound trains. That and more effort by management.

 

[Burns651]

Wasn’t there a proposal a few years ago to route one of Amtrak’s east coast to Chicago trains via Detroit and thru Michigan?

It could be done. NYC’s Wolverine left NY at 6pm, Detroit-6:45am, Kalamazoo-9:40, Chicago- 11:20am.

Of course, those times reflect running on the NYC/Canada Southern Ry. racetrack through St. Thomas, ON. All gone now except for fragments around Windsor and Welland. Now you'd have to get from Buffalo to Windsor via Hamilton and London- or much more likely, via Cleveland and Toledo.

 

[Railroad Bill]

Columbus did have Amtrak service until 1979 and the train station here was demolished (only the columns remain--now moved to another location). A convention center now stands where the previous train station was.

There are talks that if the 3C+D comes to fruition, there would be a station inside of the convention center as a possible location.

Remember hanging out in the old grand Columbus depot in early 70s while attending OSU. A neat place with lots of history, but few trains. Sad they tore it down.

 

[Palmland]

Of course, those times reflect running on the NYC/Canada Southern Ry. racetrack through St. Thomas, ON. All gone now except for fragments around Windsor and Welland. Now you'd have to get from Buffalo to Windsor via Hamilton and London- or much more likely, via Cleveland and Toledo.

Yes, a better example would have been the Detroiter that left NY at 7pm and arrived Detroit, via Cleveland, at 8am, 1'"15" longer than the Wolverine. But then that was a very long time ago. Now the question is how would it affect the LSL (or Capitol)? Amtrak's fastest Wolverine takes about 5 hours (actual run time). An old schedule for Amtrak's Lake Cities had a running time of 1'30" Toledo to Detroit. That's about 6'30" total as compared to about 4'30" for the LSL. So this is certainly doable with perhaps an hour earlier NY departure and hour later into Chicago and avoids some of the potential NS delays in Indiana. Unfortunately the added ridership this might get is something of a moot point until Amtrak resolves their equipment availability problem.

 

[thully]

Of course, those times reflect running on the NYC/Canada Southern Ry. racetrack through St. Thomas, ON. All gone now except for fragments around Windsor and Welland. Now you'd have to get from Buffalo to Windsor via Hamilton and London- or much more likely, via Cleveland and Toledo.

Yeah - it would be nice if they could do something via the shorter route through Canada, though knowing CBP and CBSA these days they’d probably insist on two customs checks for all passengers, even if the entire train ran sealed and non-stop through Canada (You’d also be skipping Cleveland, though that stop would be at 3am-ish so perhaps not as much of a loss). Routing via Toledo would perhaps be more likely, though they’d have to get the Detroit-Toledo track up to passenger standards (and if they were re-routing the LSL as opposed to a new route would have to switch the departure times of that and the CL eastbound to get reasonable call time in Michigan).

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Cincinnati has no airport so it a bit hard to get to. (The local airport is in Kentucky.)

That increases the advantage of a rail line, especially for people who would be travelling from an intermediate stop. There will be a stop in Sharonville, north of Cincinnati, which is 45 minutes to the airport.

Of course get the airlines to add a flight between these two points is much easier than getting a railroad service.

It is easy enough to start service, but harder to maintain it. Budget airlines depend on always having enough people to fill a plane as soon as it lands, to minimize turn-around times. Between hub cities, there are always passengers---there are always people flying from Atlanta to Chicago. But between airports like Cincinnati and Cleveland, or for that matter between most medium-sized cities, there is not going to be enough passengers to fill up automatically and have the necessary turn around-times to keep a budget airline running.

General agree with need for service, just not able to vote in that state. So preaching to the choir comes to mind.

Yep! It is probably best for me to focus on transit in my own state/region, but I am happy to see this get started.

 

[rookzie]

I'm hoping for the 3C+D to make fruition as well. Not only with me being an Amtrak railfanner in central Ohio, but I agree with the above that it would open up the corridor and allow a good flow of traffic through Ohio from places in NKY as well.

It would be cool to see Cincinnati Union Terminal serve another train rather than just the Cardinal, a midpoint here in Columbus for passenger rail and a point southward from Cleveland. Plus, Dayton could also benefit from a station being there as well.

I know that the 3C+D is still a long ways away from possibly happening, but it's good to dream (and yes, I have dreamed of the different rolling stock it would have too, hehe).

-==-

Columbus did have Amtrak service until 1979 and the train station here was demolished (only the columns remain--now moved to another location). A convention center now stands where the previous train station was.

There are talks that if the 3C+D comes to fruition, there would be a station inside of the convention center as a possible location.

I miss that old station as well, even to this day.

I used to ride the Pennsylvania RR "Cincinnati Limited" between NYPenn and Cincy, with a layover between it and the L&N RR to and from Nashville. For nearly all its post-WWII existence, it "piggybacked" (ran combined with) other trains east of Columbus, basically being transformed in nothing but a "Rump" service between Columbus and Cincy, starting in 1966. From that point until the end in April 1971, the "Cincinnati Limited" had become merely a coach (or two) and a sleeper tacked onto (or split from) the rear of the "Spirit of St. Louis" train at Columbus. By 1969 under Penn Central mgmt., the train was rerouted from the former Pennsy to the then-better-conditioned former NYCentral ─ London OH to Cincy, via Springfield and Dayton. The Pennsy line from which the "Limited" was rerouted (Cincinnati & Xenia Branch) now forms the Little Miami Scenic Trail. A whole lot of infrastructure has been completely dismantled and erased throughout in just a half century.

As I see it with respect to Amtrak expanded-corridor routes, Ohio in general has an array number of medium and large populated areas, all of which lie among major patterns of ground transport that have rendered them intermediate points to and from similar points outside the region. Ohio has what might be considered to hold the highest concentration of such populated areas not interconnected with passenger rail (except of course the "nightly" Cleveland and Toledo runs via trains 29-30 and 48-49) ─ each center of which has become a major "node" of ground transport activity. The state's geographic regional location and the spatial position with respect to centers outside the state perhaps have made it the most potentially viable prospect for a new network within its own right. Unlike with the Florida model of implementing such a network primarily bound within that state, Ohio could be transformed into a "Mid-Eastern" (as it were) "Epicenter", to interlace with points west, east, and at least the Central South.

That said, a few days ago, Cincinnati Local12 (WKRC-TV) headlined: "Amtrak routes connecting Cincinnati to Nashville, Chicago head to feds", (posted by American City Business Journals). "New passenger rail routes connecting Cincinnati to Chicago, Cleveland and Nashville have been submitted to the Federal Railroad Administration." Based on the latest route map(s), this probably translates to a Cincy-Indy-Louisville-Nashville path, instead of the much direct pre-Amtrak route ─ Cincy, Covington (Ky.), Walton, Louisville. So, in that respect, the report might be misleading, as I'm not aware of any direct Louisville-Cincy proposal as of yet. I do believe such a connection could have merit, but only with an already implemented 3C+D+Toledo-Detroit framework ─ at the very least with the 3C portion.

 

[Willbridge]

Ohio's network, before mass abandonments, reminded me of Germany, with numerous focal points. That compared to Minnesota or Oregon, for examples, with a dominating focal point due to topography, more like Spain or France.

 

[Johnepants]

I think the article here gives me the first hope for expansion in the Buckeye State. I feel like the state government is more receptive to it since the upfront start up costs would be handled, any any concerns will come from long term ridership numbers.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023...mtrak-expansion-by-seeking-federal-money.html
With that said, if expansion did happen, what would you all like to see? I’m a fan of having the 3C connector, but more so of a fan of creating additional corridors that would support the long distance lines. I know some in NE Ohio want Cleveland to be a hub for rail traffic, but I don’t see a future at the old Terminal, and without that, I’m not sure where a hub could be kept.

 

[John Santos]

Cincinnati has no airport so it a bit hard to get to. (The local airport is in Kentucky.)
Of course get the airlines to add a flight between these two points is much easier than getting a railroad service.

General agree with need for service, just not able to vote in that state. So preaching to the choir comes to mind.

Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport is just across the river in Kentucky but is only 16 minutes from downtown Cincy. No more distant than most city airports. If you fly to Cincinnati, that's the airport your plane goes to.

 

[jis]

Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport is just across the river in Kentucky but is only 16 minutes from downtown Cincy. No more distant than most city airports. If you fly to Cincinnati, that's the airport your plane goes to.

Yeah Covington KY. Most times it is faster to get to Cincy from there than to get to Manhattan from JFK