Ohio finally starts the process for new Amtrak service

[railiner]

Detroit is cut off from the east unless you take the Thruway bus from Toledo.

The FRA LD Study, has one solution, as of Meeting 4: New Orleans - Nashville - Cincinnati - Columbus - Toledo - Detroit.

Amtrak Corridor ID has a state-supported train: Cleveland - Toledo - Detroit. Ohio took the free $500k grant for a preliminary study. After that the state would have to pay an increasing percentage.

You could convert a Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit “corridor train” to a “long distance train”, if you would make it an extension of another “corridor train”, the Pennsylvanian..

 

[MccfamschoolMom]

You could convert a Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit “corridor train” to a “long distance train”, if you would make it an extension of another “corridor train”, the Pennsylvanian..

That would be like how the Lincoln Service (which has a stop in my hometown) functions as an extension of the Missouri River Runner twice a day (1 south & westbound/1 east & northbound).

 

[railiner]

That would be like how the Lincoln Service (which has a stop in my hometown) functions as an extension of the Missouri River Runner twice a day (1 south & westbound/1 east & northbound).

Except that its combined mileage is still short of the 750 required to qualify it as “long distance. Illinois gets the benefit of the Eagle and the CONO as long distance trains on its Lincoln or Carbondale corridors, as well as the SWC and CZ as far as Galesburg on its Quincy corridor.
Other states also have a mix of state supported and long distance trains sharing a common route.

 

[MccfamschoolMom]

still short of the 750 required to qualify it as “long distance.

I hadn't seen the definition before; thanks for providing it!

 

[west point]

Congress will have to legislate the termination of this Balkanization of Amtrak service. Any route that goes 2 or more states should not be subject to the 750 mile artificial limit. That IMO was an effeort by certain POLs to limit Amtrak and travel demand.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

My mistake, the restored service in the FRA LD Study is the North Coast Hiawatha, Seattle - Chicago, not a section of the Empire Builder! Too late to edit it.

State supported sub-750-mile routes have been a short term success in ridership. Eighteen states contribute, comprising 57% of the U.S. population. https://www.saiprc.com/about-saiprc. They forgot to increase the count from 17 when they put Minnesota on the list. See also the Amtrak OIG report from January 2022: Amtrak Has Begun to Address State Partners’ Concerns About Shared Costs But Has More Work to Do to Improve Relationships.

Like many states, Ohio hands out many grants to freight railroads, maybe with federal sources. The last five years of grants are here, in press releases: https://rail.ohio.gov/about-ordc/news-and-events/ The headlines are all about non-Class I, but many carry Class I. The Wheeling and Lake Erie Railway is a frequent recipient and it carries NS and CSX. While most amounts are under $1m or not much more, a four-line rail interchange in Spencer for the Wheeling and Lake Erie is a $10m project. A deal tied to passenger service has not yet appeared.

 

[Amtrak25]

Congress will have to legislate the termination of this Balkanization of Amtrak service. Any route that goes 2 or more states should not be subject to the 750 mile artificial limit. That IMO was an effeort by certain POLs to limit Amtrak and travel demand.

They (Boardman, Lautenberg, Gardner as Hill staffer) came up 750 miles to draw a Sharpie line between the Carolinan (704) and Capitol Limited (780) and of course exempt the NEC spine (457).

Anderson/Gardner's/Coscia's "National Network 2" of 2018 would have slashed the LD network from 15 to 5 trains, kill or chop up into state supported corridors the rest. PRIIA-209 set the basis for that. The SW Chief Bus Bridge was the start of it. The Amtrak Board has yet to officially refute the plan, only exposed by a Trains-in-The-Valley FOIA request. Balkanization is what they wanted. That's why the Pennsylvanian will not hold so much as 15 minutes for a late Capitol Ltd - because Penn DOT wants an on-time departure, does not much care for the connecting revenue that the sloppy connection has done a pretty good job of killing since 2005 (thank you David Gunn).

I think it shoud be 105 miles to limit PRIAA-209 to quasi-commuter runs like Sacramento, Milwaukee, Harrisburg, Springfield, Greenfield.

Getting back to Ohio, Governor Kasich, a so-called moderate, complained 3C would be for "39 MPH trains", on a poorly designed timetable that Amtrak designed to fail, would someday have Ohio pay $10 million to subsidize, which is less than what Ohio pays to mow median grass in interstates, so he threw the money right back at Obama. I don't think Ohio politics are any more favorable now.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

The problem at the Union Station site is that NS traffic is on the three tracks on the South side and CN is on the North side. There is no way for a train using a North side track to get to the NS tracks to Elkhart East of South Bend since the High St. Interlocking does not exist any more. All the route shuffling is now done at CP Arnold and Bend, West of the Union Station site. Whoever made plans for a North side platform for Amtrak was apparently not aware of this show stopping fact. It will cause enormous sums of money to build a flyover from a North side platform track across the CN trackage to get to the NS Elkhart Line.

While one could conceivably build one platform on the South side relatively inexpensively, trying to build even a single platform with access from two tracks there would be expensive since it will involve moving the South-most track off the current ROW possibly on an elevated structure at current track level to make room for an island platform, though nothing like the cost of doing something on the North side. Apparently the head house would still be on the north side with the platform on the south side access through a pedestrian tunnel under the NS + CN ROW.

This somewhat confuses me--there's a gap in the tracks between the NS and CN large enough for an island platform (believe that's where one used to be as well) next to which each Amtrak train passes by during its trip both east and west bound. Building an island/satellite platform there with either stair access from below or an overpass above would be very doable (from what I can tell) and require no operational changes. Wouldn't that be by far the most painless solution here?

And if you were going to try to route the SSL there eventually as well, you would need to hug the north edge of the ROW where the current SB Amtrak station is today to the old Union station, which wouldn't cross over any of the existing tracks, though there are 2 choke points/bridges near Union station which would need to be made a few feet wider to make room. Otherwise there is room for another track in that ROW. I understand the SSL portion of this is much more expensive but the Amtrak portion seems quite affordable. Please let me know if I'm at all mistaken

 

[SanDiegan]

Agreed @The Quaking Widow. There definitely needs to be a route from Toledo to Detroit (or even to Ann Arbor) even in a shuttle-based aspect. This way, this would open up travel in the eastern part of Michigan to points south and not just a Chicago-bound route.

I know that both the 3C+D and a Toledo-Detroit route are a long shot, but the throughput of these cities would be a great idea to keep travel flow pushing through.

I'm hoping for the 3C+D to make fruition as well. Not only with me being an Amtrak railfanner in central Ohio, but I agree with the above that it would open up the corridor and allow a good flow of traffic through Ohio from places in NKY as well.

It would be cool to see Cincinnati Union Terminal serve another train rather than just the Cardinal, a midpoint here in Columbus for passenger rail and a point southward from Cleveland. Plus, Dayton could also benefit from a station being there as well.

I know that the 3C+D is still a long ways away from possibly happening, but it's good to dream (and yes, I have dreamed of the different rolling stock it would have too, hehe).

When I travel from California to Columbus, I take the South Shore Line to South Bend Airport and pick up a rental car for the drive to Columbus.

 

[jis]

This somewhat confuses me--there's a gap in the tracks between the NS and CN large enough for an island platform (believe that's where one used to be as well) next to which each Amtrak train passes by during its trip both east and west bound. Building an island/satellite platform there with either stair access from below or an overpass above would be very doable (from what I can tell) and require no operational changes. Wouldn't that be by far the most painless solution here?

And if you were going to try to route the SSL there eventually as well, you would need to hug the north edge of the ROW where the current SB Amtrak station is today to the old Union station, which wouldn't cross over any of the existing tracks, though there are 2 choke points/bridges near Union station which would need to be made a few feet wider to make room. Otherwise there is room for another track in that ROW. I understand the SSL portion of this is much more expensive but the Amtrak portion seems quite affordable. Please let me know if I'm at all mistaken

You are possibly quite right. As for affordability, the reports I have seen claim that a SSL platform at the west end of the station area would be relatively inexpensive. They all claimed that any platform adjacent to the Convention Center is difficult due to limitations placed on such by NS. I really have not much knowledge beyond that, other than anything to be placed within the current RoW must be agreed to by NS.

You could convert a Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit “corridor train” to a “long distance train”, if you would make it an extension of another “corridor train”, the Pennsylvanian..

A New York to Toledo daytime train either via Pittsburgh or Cleveland is easy, sort of like the Palmetto. Takes two consists. It starts getting dicey when you try to add Detroit to it. And a New York - Toledo train is under 750 miles but extension to Detroit is as I understand it, a shade over. Unfortunately, to run it to Detroit you need more crew than to run to Toledo because of way\ less than sufficient rest time.

 

[railbuck]

A New York to Toledo daytime train either via Pittsburgh or Cleveland is easy, sort of like the Palmetto. Takes two consists. It starts getting dicey when you try to add Detroit to it. And a New York - Toledo train is under 750 miles but extension to Detroit is as I understand it, a shade over. Unfortunately, to run it to Detroit you need more crew than to run to Toledo because of way\ less than sufficient rest time.

New York to Toledo via DC looks like 771 miles, but probably has the same crew issues.

 

[railiner]

New York to Toledo via DC looks like 771 miles, but probably has the same crew issues.

They would not route a train that way. It would go either via Harrisburg, or Albany. That way, there would be no need to reverse the train's direction enroute, at least not as far, if going via PHL…

 

[Barb Stout]

What is the talk about where the Columbus Ohio Amtrak train station would be?

 

[jis]

They would not route a train that way. It would go either via Harrisburg, or Albany. That way, there would be no need to reverse the train's direction enroute.

I doubt anyone in any seriousness would consider the routing NYP-WAS-PGH-CLE-TOL. The segment WAS-PGH-CLE is relatively bereft of potential riders other than at PGH, when compared to PHL-PGH-CLE, or even NYP-CLE via the water level route. What would be the point of running daytime route where a third of the route offers few riders?.

What is the talk about where the Columbus Ohio Amtrak train station would be?

Here is some info on the last Amtrak station (Amshack) used by the National Limited before it was discontinued.

http://www.columbusrailroads.com/Amtrak.htm

I have no idea where the new station might go. Maybe someone from Ohio can update us.

 

[John Bredin]

I'm not from Ohio, but under the convention center was the last thing I saw floating around. Linky. Linky.

 

[chadamfleetrailfan]

That is correct. There are tracks located under the convention center (CSX and used by the Ohio Central RR as well). I have driven there a few times as it's about 30 mins from my house and I was curious to see what was still there.

Here's a view of the tracks of where the station used to be (from Google Maps, but will get a better picture to supply in this thread next time I'm around that area). Unfortunately, not that much there, but you definitely could put stairs/escalator down to those tracks from the convention center (as the idea from that one article).

 

[B&Ofan]

The talk of a NYP to TOL train is quite interesting. Having traveled to Toledo many times to visit my parents, I am always impressed by the amount of passengers there considering the odd hours of service.

 

[jis]

Here is the Greater Columbus Passenger Rail Station Study Final Report (PDF) which has everything that one might want to know about what the current plans are.