OK Amtrak Apologists

[trainfan969]

Perhaps the better strategy is to have few Metrolink and Coaster trains run all the way to San Diego and LA respectively. Just two or three trains for the day.

If Metrolink and if the North County Transit District want to do that, they sure can. There isn't much Metrolink trains to Oceanside outside of the commute hours. If there were to be more trains, someone has to pay for it.

Then you have Amtrak and CalTrans who could throw a roadblock to this arrangement.

 

[user 1215]

It sounds like a sold out, SRO train would pay for it. The notion that trains can't make money its based on relatively low ridership coupled with extraordinary high overhead costs. When an extra train is set out with presumably locally available crew and equipment, the revenue to sell that train out should pay for the extra effort.

 

[jis]

According to the Amtrak Fleet Strategy Plan there are 49 Surfliner cars, 39 owned by Amtrak and 10 owned by the state of CA.

Correct! Here is the breakdown of the last order of cars by California, and where they went.

AH OK. I stand corrected again.

The main point I was making is made eloquently by Alan in a later message, that Amtrak is not the business decision maker for this service. It is CalTrans. So beating up on Amtrak is not going to change one single thing regarding whether cars are added to trains or not.

BTW, it looks like currently the following trains are running with single level equipment: 761, 1761, 790, 1790, 599, 565, 572, and 583

 

[guest in the west]

In that length of time--three and a half decades-- the number of instances when either Amtrak or Caltrans showed marketing nimbleness on ANY matter can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

Yes, there are times that Amtrak doesn't respond with nimbleness, but there are also times that it does manage to do so. Which is why I for one at least question if they even knew about this. But Amtrak adds stops for state fairs in some states. They run extra cars on the Missouri River Runner for special events. In fact, the members of this forum who attended the Gathering in St. Louis got to see this first hand. Between our group booking close to 40 seats on the train to Kansas City and back, plus a major event in a local town along the way, they added a car to this train to handle the load.

They also made sure to load extra food onto the train, and even sent down a supervisor from Chicago to St. Louis to help out in the cafe car that day.

So while I'm not going to promise that they always manage to respond to special things, if they have enough warning and if they can free up equipment, they do try. I've seen it first hand.

And I know enough about this line, and about Caltrans in general, to accept the argument that Amtrak is just putty in the hands of Caltrans. Nonsense. They work together all the time, they argue with each other a lot of the time, but the service at the end of the day is a shared responsibility.

They may work together, but when it comes to increasing costs by adding cars & personnel, that's all on Caltrans.

Of course there are assistant conductors on the extraboard who could be placed on certain trains, and enough who want and need the extra cash.

Yes, there are always extras on the extra board. But it's not quite that simple. First, they have to be fully rested under FRA rules in order to be called to work. Second, you can't just grab everyone off the extra board for something like this, because if you do that and then someone goes out sick, you now have an entire train that cannot run.

Are the odds good that they could have found someone on the extra board? Absolutely! But I just want you to be aware that it's not as simple as just picking a name on the list and calling them in. There are other considerations that must be dealt with!

Of course the cafe car could be stocked with extra provisions (the stories abound from cafe car attendants about the many, many times that the cars go out not provisioned with a third or more of the listed menu items, just because someone forgot or was lazy or whatever).

Save the failure of a vendor to deliver some item(s) to the commissary, this is unacceptable!

That said, at least in the distant past here on the NEC, there were LSA's in the cafe who claimed that they didn't have something because they didn't want to be bothered preparing that item. Not sure if that's part of what you're seeing out there or not. Hopefully not; but I sure won't hold my breath either.

Of course a service manager in LA could be stationed at in the tunnel where the ramps run up to the trains, explaining (and perhaps even apologizing in advance) for what will be a standing-room-only train.

While a nice touch, I suspect that one manager would have been totally overwhelmed by the crowds you describe and would have been lucky to speak to even 20% of the people riding.

None of this is brain surgery. It requires a little planning, some imagination, creative marketing and a willingness to think outside the government box that too many Amtrak (and for that matter, Caltrans administrators) feel comfortable remaining in.

I can't speak at all for Caltrans. But of late, Amtrak has been trying to change that culture and to do a better job of thinking outside the box. Could they be improving faster? Sure! Thinking further outside the box? Sure! Heck, even getting a bigger box to think outside of would be good. But it's also not easy to change things and you can't just fire everyone and start over without creating another disaster.

But again, they are trying! Even if things are coming slower than many of us would prefer.

Again, where I probably erred grievously, and have been doing so for 36 years now, is assuming that government agencies or quasi-government agencies are able to think creatively like private business, because they're going to get paid anyways.

It's a tough thing to overcome!

You make many good points.

But 36 years is a lot of time for Amtrak to get a well-traveled line to a high, consistent level of quality. (And plenty of time for Caltrans as well, which became involved in 1978.)

I can't recall every paper survey asking about the San Diegan's nee Surfliner's pros and cons that I have filled out in my years of riding the line. I've talked four times over the years with Surfliner managers who, by chance, were aboard as observers on the same train that I was riding.

The tortoise-like progress makes for a lot of frustration on the part of riders and for much lost opportunity on the part of Amtrak/Caltrans.

I like to fantasize about what an operation like Southwest Airlines could do with Amtrak, just as Amtrak exists today with no more money or equipment. I would wager that somehow the management of Southwest could get a lot more out of the existing product--and in a positive way.

 

[guest in the west]

According to the Amtrak Fleet Strategy Plan there are 49 Surfliner cars, 39 owned by Amtrak and 10 owned by the state of CA.

Correct! Here is the breakdown of the last order of cars by California, and where they went.

AH OK. I stand corrected again.

The main point I was making is made eloquently by Alan in a later message, that Amtrak is not the business decision maker for this service. It is CalTrans. So beating up on Amtrak is not going to change one single thing regarding whether cars are added to trains or not.

BTW, it looks like currently the following trains are running with single level equipment: 761, 1761, 790, 1790, 599, 565, 572, and 583

That's correct, and from what the conductors say, will last through the end of the Del Mar Racetrack season in September.

For those not familiar with the train consist numbers, the single-level trains are the early-morning LA to SLO run, the eight-hour-plus afternoon SLO to SAN run, the 7:05 a.m weekend SD to LA run, the 7:07 a.m. weekday express run from SD to LA, the 2:40 p.m. SD to LA run and the 11:10 a.m. LA to SD run.

 

[rrdude]

I'm not apologizing for Amtrak, but take these factors into account before you blame Amtrak;

1. The Surfliner is unreserved, meaning you can take any train. This does result in SRO conditions on certain trains at certain times. So do you put extra cars and crew on this train or the next one - and then people chose the next one, and you say "why not ad to that train"?
   
2. The coaches used on the Surfliner ARE NOT owned by Amtrak! They are ownedby the state of California! And there are not any spares. So either have the state pay $xxx MILLION for additional cars and have them either run almost empty or sit unused for 45-50 weeks a year, or suffer some inconvenience for a few days.
3. To put "another 1 or 2 conductors" on the train, you first have to hire them and train them for years. Or do you want to take conductors from other routes leaving those routes short?
   

These are only a few things to consider.

Dave, although your facts are correct, you "sound" A LOT like an apologist when reading this quote. For Amtrak NOT to take advantage of this, or at least acknowledge it, is just plain lame.

 

[Ryan]

I like to fantasize about what an operation like Southwest Airlines could do with Amtrak, just as Amtrak exists today with no more money or equipment. I would wager that somehow the management of Southwest could get a lot more out of the existing product--and in a positive way.

I'd take that bet, but I'd be interested in hearing what improvements you'd make with no extra resources.

 

[The Chief]

Sounds like they could have used a Silver SurferLiner,,,

Props to Mackensen for using the verb conflate in his apology post.

Diversified AU forum viewpoints, complaints, suggestions, etc. on this problem may catch the eye(s) of Amtrak and Caltrans staffers, who employ ether media, to plan better.

BTW, first-time rider demographic of Comi-Con customer probably would be a repeat rider after an initial good trip. That means a long-term revenue increase potential is at stake.

 

[guest in the west]

I like to fantasize about what an operation like Southwest Airlines could do with Amtrak, just as Amtrak exists today with no more money or equipment. I would wager that somehow the management of Southwest could get a lot more out of the existing product--and in a positive way.

I'd take that bet, but I'd be interested in hearing what improvements you'd make with no extra resources.

I'll give you two improvements right off the bat:

1. Southwest is known for its consistency of service. I have no doubt that Southwest has the management know-how and people skills to improve Amtrak's consistency of service. So you don't have one server on the Acela passing out the expected warm towels and another server deciding that he/she can't be bothered to do so on a particular trip. So you don't have the cafe car well-stocked on one run, and bereft of having half the menu items from the get-go on other runs (which has happened to me on the Surfliner, on the Adironack, on the River Runner and on the Capitol Corridor, to name four examples.) So you don't have station announcements being made on time and with full information on one run, and station announcements barely intelligible on another. So the SCA on one LD trip is available, friendly and productive in fulfilling the expectations of the sleeping car passenger paying high prices for first-class service, and the SCA non-existent, surly and producing the bare minimum on the next trip. So that a business car attendant on one Surfliner goes through the entire train picking up trash so that the turn-around at the terminus will go faster and smoother and result in a cleaner train for the next passengers, and the business car attendant on the next Surfliner fails to get out of the BC car at all. I don't believe such improvements would require Congressional appropriations.

2. Southwest is consistently up-front with passengers about delays and goes the extra mile in arranging alternatives in emergencies. Its employees are coached to sympathize with passengers, which helps curb a lot of the anger that otherwise is inevitable when delays occur.

The consistency is a result of good management, which realizes that the future of its company depends on well-trained, motivated employees. I have no doubt at all that Southwest would improve Amtrak's record in this area.

Let's be honest. There are differences from one company to another in how their employees are trained and how they treat customers. That's why some companies flourish and others in the same business barely survive. Southwest goes the extra mile today where most other airlines these days do not (and makes enough money so it doesn't have to levy outrageous bag check, seat reservation and other petty charges that other carriers require today in order to stay in business).

I'd love to see Amtrak in the rung of companies near or at the top when ranked by their customers. Sure, equipment issues are at the root of many Amtrak problems. But when a SCA goes out of her way to provide cardboard and duct tape for a balky bedroom air vent, that goes a LONG way toward minimizing (and with our actual trip last month, totally eliminating) that problem any sort of reason not to patronize Amtrak in the future or think less of the system and its employees. That's just another example of how you can improve things without throwing up your hands and bemoaning the lack of money. The Surfliner route, for example, has had a lot of additional revenue thrown its way over the years I have been riding it, but the overall level of surface has not been commensurate with the increased amount of money.

Hope that provides you with some food for thought.

 

[Mackensen]

Just a quick note, apparently a locomotive shortage led to the Coast Starlight getting stranded on a grade in Northern California. See http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/49196-stalled-1414/.

 

[NW cannonball]

Another brief note. A poster over on trainorders reported a "long surfliner" with 11 coaches departing LA at 11 am on Friday.

 

[Nathanael]

Truth hurts, right?

Yes, it does. That must be why you whine so hard to deny the truth.

With just some simple coordination, Amtrak could have added a few cars to the trains that day.

False. First of all, Amtrak didn't have any extra cars. On Thanksgiving they borrow cars from commuter railroads, because the commuter railroads run fewer cars on Thanksgiving.

The commuter railroads *don't* run fewer cars for Comic-Con... so there's nothing to borrow.

Where are you gonna buy some extra railroad cars? Being kept on a starvation budget for 40 years does prevent some things which would otherwise seem "obvious".

Amtrak has a certain number of spare Horizons and Amfleets, but moving them from the Midwest to San Diego for Comic-Con and back would probably cost more than the added revenue from running them.

The California fleet is being used pretty much flat out, with the number needing urgent repairs increasing as time goes on.

And the Surfliner route is primarily the responsibility of the State of California. So if someone should be buying extra cars, it's the State of California.

Who absolutely should have bought extra cars long ago, yes. Better late than never, though, they're buying some now.

 

[LarryG]

I think the problem here isn't so much whose fault it is, but how the general public views it. Whether or not Amtrak or California or someone else was responsible, Amtrak is the public face, and they'll take the backlash from customers. You only get 1 chance to make a first impression and if someone who chose to ride Amtrak to Comicon was forced to stand for a long trip in very unpleasant conditions, they'd be less likely to ride the train again. Most people in that situation aren't going to investigate to see if their anger should be directed at Amtrak or Comicon or California, for them it was the Amtrak part of their experience that was lacking.

Or another example, I was taking the LSL to a job interview in Springfield, MA. This was the same day as a large Comicon type convention in Boston, and the train was filled. On top of that, equipment malfunctions forced a couple of cars to be removed in Chicago and the resulting overflow of people had to either stand or sit in the cafe car (especially after Albany when the relatively empty NYC bound cars were taken off). It was a complex set of events, some of which couldn't be planned for. But around Albany, I was forced to change my seat because of reservation problems and the number of people, and I didn't really need that stress before a job interview. The next time I'm in a similar situation, I'll just fly to New Haven. And I imagine people going to the Boston convention might think about flying into Boston as well.

People can argue about the true cause of the problems that customers had, and if Amtrak deserves the blame, but at the end of the day, customers will be upset at Amtrak for a level of service below their expectations.

 

[afigg]

Maybe the people who went to the San Diego Comic Con were not bothered by the packed train because it was just a preview of what to expect at the convention. Came across a headline on the dcist.com blog site linking to this story about "Did The Game Of Thrones Panel Have Comic-Con's Most Insanely Long Line?".

The article claims that the line stretched for at least a mile from the convention center to get in. Half of the people in the line were not expected to to be able to get in. Why didn't those running the convention add extra space and buildings to handle the expected crowd size? If it was this bad, obviously no one will go back to the Comic Con next year!

 

[user 1215]

Hold Comic-Con in VEGAS next year!

 

[jis]

Hold Comic-Con in VEGAS next year!

That way we won't need to have pages of discussion about it on AU

 

[Ryan]

The news coverage of this event seemed to indicate that the crowds this year were significantly larger than previous years.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

The news coverage of this event seemed to indicate that the crowds this year were significantly larger than previous years.

nahhh... as much as they want it to look bigger every year, it's not. It definitely could be, but it's not. The problem is that the convention is so popular that the 3-day passes and Saturday passes are sold out in the first 30 minutes starting in February. They could easily attract 2,000,000 (no exaggeration) over the few days if there were not restrictions on how many can attend. Even though our convention center was expanded a few years ago, solely for this convention, it could be 10 times larger. The crowds themselves have not gotten any larger, but they continue to attract more and more celebs and important vendors, making it more prominent in the national spotlight.

 

[Trogdor]

The news coverage of this event seemed to indicate that the crowds this year were significantly larger than previous years.

nahhh... as much as they want it to look bigger every year, it's not. It definitely could be, but it's not. The problem is that the convention is so popular that the 3-day passes and Saturday passes are sold out in the first 30 minutes starting in February. They could easily attract 2,000,000 (no exaggeration) over the few days if there were not restrictions on how many can attend. Even though our convention center was expanded a few years ago, solely for this convention, it could be 10 times larger. The crowds themselves have not gotten any larger, but they continue to attract more and more celebs and important vendors, making it more prominent in the national spotlight.

Given that it's a comic con, could it be that the crowds were larger not because there were more people, but because the people, themselves, are significantly larger than in previous years?

Worst. Joke. Ever.

 

[Chicago Guest]

Though the comments about moving ComicCon to Vegas may have been a joke, they are really telling in regards to this specific problem. Though Thanksgiving travel will happen annually, despite what's been said in this thread, ComicCon travel to San Diego every year is not guaranteed at all. Sure, the event has become so big that it will happen, but if the organizers continue to negotiate location on a year to year basis, planning is a nightmare for all in involved and extra investment a potential waste.

 

[choochoochooseme]

this issue is nothing new but terrible press for amtrak. passengers waiting to board the last train out of dodge last night suffered anxiety/panic attacks/crying upon fearing they couldn't board. i don't blame them; the night before overbooking happened to me so i rode my bike around the gaslamp until the first train at dawn -- talk about pee wee's big adventure!

once onboard the trip north was pretty much like every other sunday after the con -- SRO and exhausted people. i was one of several disabled on board to fight for a seat after the conductor instructed passengers to "just take them as there are no disabled riders this late" (tell that to the post-surgery grandmother who boarded at solana in horror). people were sprawled on the floor, the aisle, the stairwells, on luggage. real zombies! but my issue is that although i was not disabled then this was not my first year in that hell.

but as the drive to the con became something reminiscent of the thanksgiving socal commute it's the lesser evil.

to play devil's advocate though wasn't this amtrak's fault for dropping the train inbetween? plus i saw spare cars in the yard just last week; they needed them. though there has been some turnover lately some of the agents have been around long enough to know just how massive the con for the PS.

wholly agree with PP that metrolink + coaster should join forces. the coaster does not run enough trains on weekends but when i see ridership or lack thereof i understand why; san diego is car culture through-and-through like it or not.

also agree with the issue opening all the train doors. way to make the disabled and people overloaded with toys struggle.

re: MTA in my experience the trolley on a slow day accommodates con passengers seamlessly although, yes, many board sans fare.

every week or so i tell myself that i'm going to boycott amtrak because of constant bike woes (sister metrolink gets a pass here) and extreme poor customer service but both are topics for another post.

 

[haolerider]

this issue is nothing new but terrible press for amtrak. passengers waiting to board the last train out of dodge last night suffered anxiety/panic attacks/crying upon fearing they couldn't board. i don't blame them; the night before overbooking happened to me so i rode my bike around the gaslamp until the first train at dawn -- talk about pee wee's big adventure!

once onboard the trip north was pretty much like every other sunday after the con -- SRO and exhausted people. i was one of several disabled on board to fight for a seat after the conductor instructed passengers to "just take them as there are no disabled riders this late" (tell that to the post-surgery grandmother who boarded at solana in horror). people were sprawled on the floor, the aisle, the stairwells, on luggage. real zombies! but my issue is that although i was not disabled then this was not my first year in that hell.

but as the drive to the con became something reminiscent of the thanksgiving socal commute it's the lesser evil.

to play devil's advocate though wasn't this amtrak's fault for dropping the train inbetween? plus i saw spare cars in the yard just last week; they needed them. though there has been some turnover lately some of the agents have been around long enough to know just how massive the con for the PS.

wholly agree with PP that metrolink + coaster should join forces. the coaster does not run enough trains on weekends but when i see ridership or lack thereof i understand why; san diego is car culture through-and-through like it or not.

also agree with the issue opening all the train doors. way to make the disabled and people overloaded with toys struggle.

re: MTA in my experience the trolley on a slow day accommodates con passengers seamlessly although, yes, many board sans fare.

every week or so i tell myself that i'm going to boycott amtrak because of constant bike woes (sister metrolink gets a pass here) and extreme poor customer service but both are topics for another post.

After reading most of this thread , I have to say that the local Amtrak Marketing group dropped the ball on this. If this is a yearly event, it is really the responsibility of Marketing to know the local market and work with the operations group to be sure there is adequate equipment for the event. Operations is not responsible for monitoring conventions, meetings, etc and Marketing is! Now, they may have alerted ops and someone dropped the ball, but it certainly did not look good for Amtrak.....no matter who owns the equipment.

 

[hmy1]

After having read the posts in this thread, I thought I'd chime in with my comments:

Sounds like a perfect storm occurred on the OP's train last Thursday. With the January schedule change that eliminated the 798/799, the dreaded single-level trainset can appear on a run south of LAX. And with the addition of a second single-level trainset in preparation for the Del Mar race season (which starts this Wednesday 7/18), you are more likely to encounter one. Less capacity, manual doors, steps to climb, etc. make the experience much worse compared to a regular Surfliner trainset. Understaffing a train with manual doors didn't help, either.

Comic-con draws over 120,000 visitors over four days, not 20,000 as somebody previously stated. That's a lot of people, and many of them are coming down from LA, the entertainment capital. Comi-con recently committed to staying in San Diego until at least 2015, so this is an event that can definitely be planned for, if desired. I challenge Amtrak California to do so. They've tried to address the capacity issues surround the Del Mar race track, although I am not a regular enough rider to witness how effective it is. One difference is that the race season is two months whereas Comic-con is one weekend.

Bottom line is: This was a very negative experience for riders. For first time riders, it was probably their last time, too.

 

[guest--on the Pacific]

After having read the posts in this thread, I thought I'd chime in with my comments:

Sounds like a perfect storm occurred on the OP's train last Thursday. With the January schedule change that eliminated the 798/799, the dreaded single-level trainset can appear on a run south of LAX. And with the addition of a second single-level trainset in preparation for the Del Mar race season (which starts this Wednesday 7/18), you are more likely to encounter one. Less capacity, manual doors, steps to climb, etc. make the experience much worse compared to a regular Surfliner trainset. Understaffing a train with manual doors didn't help, either.

Comic-con draws over 120,000 visitors over four days, not 20,000 as somebody previously stated. That's a lot of people, and many of them are coming down from LA, the entertainment capital. Comi-con recently committed to staying in San Diego until at least 2015, so this is an event that can definitely be planned for, if desired. I challenge Amtrak California to do so. They've tried to address the capacity issues surround the Del Mar race track, although I am not a regular enough rider to witness how effective it is. One difference is that the race season is two months whereas Comic-con is one weekend.

Bottom line is: This was a very negative experience for riders. For first time riders, it was probably their last time, too.

You and the OP responding to Ryan make very good points.

 

[guest]

I like to fantasize about what an operation like Southwest Airlines could do with Amtrak, just as Amtrak exists today with no more money or equipment. I would wager that somehow the management of Southwest could get a lot more out of the existing product--and in a positive way.

I'd take that bet, but I'd be interested in hearing what improvements you'd make with no extra resources.

I'll give you two improvements right off the bat:

1. Southwest is known for its consistency of service. I have no doubt that Southwest has the management know-how and people skills to improve Amtrak's consistency of service. So you don't have one server on the Acela passing out the expected warm towels and another server deciding that he/she can't be bothered to do so on a particular trip. So you don't have the cafe car well-stocked on one run, and bereft of having half the menu items from the get-go on other runs (which has happened to me on the Surfliner, on the Adironack, on the River Runner and on the Capitol Corridor, to name four examples.) So you don't have station announcements being made on time and with full information on one run, and station announcements barely intelligible on another. So the SCA on one LD trip is available, friendly and productive in fulfilling the expectations of the sleeping car passenger paying high prices for first-class service, and the SCA non-existent, surly and producing the bare minimum on the next trip. So that a business car attendant on one Surfliner goes through the entire train picking up trash so that the turn-around at the terminus will go faster and smoother and result in a cleaner train for the next passengers, and the business car attendant on the next Surfliner fails to get out of the BC car at all. I don't believe such improvements would require Congressional appropriations.

2. Southwest is consistently up-front with passengers about delays and goes the extra mile in arranging alternatives in emergencies. Its employees are coached to sympathize with passengers, which helps curb a lot of the anger that otherwise is inevitable when delays occur.

The consistency is a result of good management, which realizes that the future of its company depends on well-trained, motivated employees. I have no doubt at all that Southwest would improve Amtrak's record in this area.

Let's be honest. There are differences from one company to another in how their employees are trained and how they treat customers. That's why some companies flourish and others in the same business barely survive. Southwest goes the extra mile today where most other airlines these days do not (and makes enough money so it doesn't have to levy outrageous bag check, seat reservation and other petty charges that other carriers require today in order to stay in business).

I'd love to see Amtrak in the rung of companies near or at the top when ranked by their customers. Sure, equipment issues are at the root of many Amtrak problems. But when a SCA goes out of her way to provide cardboard and duct tape for a balky bedroom air vent, that goes a LONG way toward minimizing (and with our actual trip last month, totally eliminating) that problem any sort of reason not to patronize Amtrak in the future or think less of the system and its employees. That's just another example of how you can improve things without throwing up your hands and bemoaning the lack of money. The Surfliner route, for example, has had a lot of additional revenue thrown its way over the years I have been riding it, but the overall level of surface has not been commensurate with the increased amount of money.

Hope that provides you with some food for thought.

Interesting points. I find this same maddening inconsistency riding the NEC all the time! So I would agree with you that a lot of the problem with the public perception is not money but the attitudes and professionalism of a lot of employees.