Options for 7 Train to NJ

[jis]

Connection to Metro North was not even on the list of top items for either ARC Alternative-G (NYP - GCT main line connection) or 7 to Secaucus. It is all about getting people to their offices around GCT,  Jokingly we used to say that it is to address NJ's jealousy of LI getting ESA, without spending a huge amount to construct a new tunnel across Manhattan for the ARC Alternative G.

MN to NYP only partly addresses any transfer between NJT to MNRR Issue, which is not considered to be a significant issue at this time. It is currently mostly about getting MNRR passengers to the West Side development near Penn Station, niot to facilitate transfers between NJT and MNRR. Indeed there is very little coordination between NJT and LIRR at Penn Station either, to facilitate cross Manhattan transit.

All these changes are focused on getting people to work in Manhattan. All New York area Commuter Rail service is Manhattan (so called Urban Core) focused, not that it must be, but that is what it is so far. Amazon in LIC will modify that a bit, but it is still within the rather compact urban core, not cross core transfers and transit.

 

[Andrew]

Port Authority is the one that has in its charter to build and improve trans-Hudson travel. Naturally both NJ and NY States would contribute some. But it won’t be MTA’s job to fund, build or operate it necessarily. They may be contracted to do some of it with funding, like the 7 West Side extension was.

The bottom line is Gateway does not even come close to addressing a real solution to the trans-Hudson commuting problem. People are just dreaming because they find themselves powerless to work through the political mess in the Tri-State area to even come close to what actually needs to be done, instead of trying to stuff more trains into Penn Station.

Gateway provides for the potential for more trains to operate into Penn Station.

Is 7 Train to Secaucus more likely to get built than the Block 780 Station expansion?

 

[jis]

At present both seem unlikely. New York and New Jersey will first roast in their own stew for a decade or two before they will wake up and try to fix things. That is my current speculation.

 

[Andrew]

At present both seem unlikely. New York and New Jersey will first roast in their own stew for a decade or two before they will wake up and try to fix things. That is my current speculation.

I think Gateway is going to begin construction in the near future.

What are your thoughts on a scaled down Block 780 station?

 

[jis]

Not happening anytime soon in any scale unless something changes seriously.

The Hudson Tunnel, which is now being handles completely separately from the rest of Gateway can start construction tomorrow if NJ, NY and PA choose to fund it without waiting for the Feds. With the feds who knows. Perhaps after the wall [emoji51]

Anyway, we have no idea about what or when of the rest of Gateway, other than Portal North, on which preliminary work has already started and it is at least half funded. The rest of Gateway remains to be seen.

 

[Andrew]

Not happening anytime soon in any scale unless something changes seriously.

The Hudson Tunnel, which is now being handles completely separately from the rest of Gateway can start construction tomorrow if NJ, NY and PA choose to fund it without waiting for the Feds. With the feds who knows. Perhaps after the wall

Anyway, we have no idea about what or when of the rest of Gateway, other than Portal North, on which preliminary work has already started and it is at least half funded. The rest of Gateway remains to be seen.

But if the proposed Block 780 Station does not get built, than NJ Transit can not add any peak hour trains into and out of Midtown Manhattan.

Is the proposed 7 Train to NJ better than building ARC to 34th Street?

 

[keelhauled]

ARC has been deader than the dinosaurs for the better part of a decade, why is it even being brought up other than to further muddy the waters?

 

[jis]

History of how we got here is useful to know. I apologize if that bothers someone.

BTW, there are many that are carrying on about building the Alternative G, which is still technically feasible after the Hudson Tunnels and NYPSS is built, though most likely politically and financially not so much. BTW I am referring to the original ARC Scoping document which contained the alternatives, not the final NJT project.

Of course 7 to Sec is better than the dead end station. But Alternative G is the direct alternative addressing the same issue. We at NJ-ARP who have championed 7 to Sec of course believe it to be better. But there is the other, smaller contingent that still pine for Alt-G. I have briefly mentioned the advantages of 7 to Sec earlier in this thread.

 

[Andrew]

History of how we got here is useful to know. I apologize if that bothers someone.

BTW, there are many that are carrying on about building the Alternative G, which is still technically feasible after the Hudson Tunnels and NYPSS is built, though most likely politically and financially not so much. BTW I am referring to the original ARC Scoping document which contained the alternatives, not the final NJT project.

Of course 7 to Sec is better than the dead end station. But Alternative G is the direct alternative addressing the same issue. We at NJ-ARP who have championed 7 to Sec of course believe it to be better. But there is the other, smaller contingent that still pine for Alt-G. I have briefly mentioned the advantages of 7 to Sec earlier in this thread.

I just can't picture Block 780 being demolished to build Penn Station South.

When East Side Access opens, maybe NJ Transit could gain an island platform at Penn Station, which could add 6 Rush Hour trains?

 

[jis]

LIRR (MTA) actually paid real money to buy the slots and platform space that it currently uses and owns (unlike NJT, which turned down a similar offer when Penn Station was being divvied out). They have stated that they have no intention of giving up any of it when ESA goes on line. At most some of that will be used to bring MNRR to NYP, but none of that will be available for NJT or Amtrak use.

Well maybe NJT may be allowed to lease3 some space, but at present that seems unlikely given LIRR and MNRR's plans to pretty much use up everything what with MNRR coming to NYP and LIRR's expanded service on the Main Line upon the completion of the third track.

 

[Andrew]

I think Gateway will get built before 7 Train to NJ happens.

I hope that some type of Block 780 Expansion gets built to enable more Rush Hour NJ Trains to operate into Manhattan.

What would happen to Secaucus Junction if the Bergen Loop gets built?

 

[jis]

You are still confusing Gateway with the Tunnels. The Tunnels are just a part of the overall Gateway project, which includes 780, Portal Bridge, Sawtooth Bridge, four mailine tracks to Newark Penn Station etc.

Nothing different will happen to Secaucus if Bergen Loop is built since even the expanded Penn Station won’t have room for everything from Main/Bergen/Pascak lines. There will be plenty of trains going to Hoboken and they will still stop at Secaucus, even more so if 7 to Secaucus is built. [emoji57]

 

[cpotisch]

What is the Bergen Loop?

 

[jis]

What is the Bergen Loop?

A proposed loop that connects the lower level to the upper level at Secaucus Junction. The prposed loop to be built in the southwest quadrant between NEC, Bergen/Main lines and the Hackensack River.

 

[Andrew]

You are still confusing Gateway with the Tunnels. The Tunnels are just a part of the overall Gateway project, which includes 780, Portal Bridge, Sawtooth Bridge, four mailine tracks to Newark Penn Station etc.

Nothing different will happen to Secaucus if Bergen Loop is built since even the expanded Penn Station won’t have room for everything from Main/Bergen/Pascak lines. There will be plenty of trains going to Hoboken and they will still stop at Secaucus, even more so if 7 to Secaucus is built.

I thought Block 780 would get built and the plan is for some NJ Transit trains to use The Bergen Loop to access Manhattan and terminate at Block 780.

Do you think 7 Train to Secaucus should stop near or at Hoboken Terminal, and how likely is 7 to NJ to actually get built?

 

[Thirdrail7]

Do you think 7 Train to Secaucus should stop near or at Hoboken Terminal, and how likely is 7 to NJ to actually get built?

I'm not sure why you're pushing this....on yet another board.  The only thing that was proposed was study...months ago.:

https://ny.curbed.com/2018/2/28/17062764/nyc-port-authority-mta-7-train-extension-new-jersey-study

The agency is partnering up with the MTA, along with New York City Transit and New Jersey Transit to commission a long-term study on how rapid transit can expand across the Hudson River and increase commuting capacity over the next 20 years, reports the New York Times. A 7 train extension is just one of the many options that the agencies are hoping to explore, but an option nonetheless.

Additionally, how would a SUBWAY to SECAUCUS have ANYTHING to do with HOBOKEN?  That doesn't even remotely make sense.

Instead of asking questions on pmb, not write your representative and ask THEIR opinions and ask THEM to lobby for this project?

 

[Andrew]

I'm not sure why you're pushing this....on yet another board.  The only thing that was proposed was study...months ago.:

https://ny.curbed.com/2018/2/28/17062764/nyc-port-authority-mta-7-train-extension-new-jersey-study

Additionally, how would a SUBWAY to SECAUCUS have ANYTHING to do with HOBOKEN?  That doesn't even remotely make sense.

Instead of asking questions on pmb, not write your representative and ask THEIR opinions and ask THEM to lobby for this project?

The 7 Train to Secaucus could stop in North Hoboken on the way to Secaucus.

 

[Andrew]

You are still confusing Gateway with the Tunnels. The Tunnels are just a part of the overall Gateway project, which includes 780, Portal Bridge, Sawtooth Bridge, four mailine tracks to Newark Penn Station etc.

Nothing different will happen to Secaucus if Bergen Loop is built since even the expanded Penn Station won’t have room for everything from Main/Bergen/Pascak lines. There will be plenty of trains going to Hoboken and they will still stop at Secaucus, even more so if 7 to Secaucus is built.

If it was up to you in building Gateway Phase 2, do you think it would be necessary to include the Bergen Loop, or it would it make Secaucus Junction a white elephant?

 

[jis]

If it was up to you in building Gateway Phase 2, do you think it would be necessary to include the Bergen Loop, or it would it make Secaucus Junction a white elephant?

No and No.

 

[Thirdrail7]

There is no way they would route that subway SOUTH to Hoboken and turn NORTH and head to Secaucus.

 

[jis]

There is no way they would route that subway SOUTH to Hoboken and turn NORTH and head to Secaucus.

The proposed route for the #7 tunnel places it just south of the new NEC tunnels, so it passes under the border between Weehawken and Hoboken. Some have proposed a station in that area providing connection to the Hudson Bergen LRT, but it does not appear in any concrete documented plan.

The tunnel being South of the NEC tunnel makes sense if it is built as an extension from the tail tracks of #7 from the Javits Center terminus. OTOH, if it is built as a branch from m10th Ave. it becomes a different matter and a more expensive proposition, though it saves a few minutes on the journey from Secaucus to Times Square.

Thirdrail, the reason I consider things like 7 to Secaucus as important things to think about is because it does help decongest NY Penn Station. As I think you and I agree, the current trend towards stuffing everything into Penn Station is simply not sustainable and it is producing more and more reducuously expensive alternative that will eventually crash under their own weight. Just IMHO. What is needed is dispersal of arriving/departing commuter traffic, not concentration.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Thirdrail, the reason I consider things like 7 to Secaucus as important things to think about is because it does help decongest NY Penn Station. As I think you and I agree, the current trend towards stuffing everything into Penn Station is simply not sustainable and it is producing more and more reducuously expensive alternative that will eventually crash under their own weight. Just IMHO. What is needed is dispersal of arriving/departing commuter traffic, not concentration.

While I agree that something has to be done about  the congested mess that is NYP, I have to admit I'm completely on the fence about this.  Sure, it beats a blank and even if Gateway is completed, there will be a need for additional service to deal with the climbing numbers.

However, there is a cheaper solution. You could have a ferry deploy from that same station and go directly to Hoboken....among other places. All it would cost you is the pier in NYC as there are already ferry slips in Hoboken.

Why are we spending billions to tunnel to Hoboken when there is already infrastructure in place for Hoboken? Those funds could be used to expand other services...not duplicate other services...which still necessitate a transfer.

 

[jis]

The tunnel is not to Hoboken. It happens to pass under the northern edge of Hoboken simply because that is the cheapest routing for such a tunnel.

Yes. Ferries have to be part of the mix, but they won't be great for getting people to Grand Central area where people need to go, absent some reorganization of either subways or BRT or something, the latter adding to street congestion in already congested streets. OTOH, ferries from Hoboken to LIC would be a great way to divert the Amazon traffic away from midtown, and even quite a bit of the Hudson Yard traffic (think Google traffic) can be handled by ferries from Hoboken. This would also relieve pressure on Penn Station and also Secaucus Jct., which gets pretty bad I am told at some rush hour times of the day..

 

[Andrew]

But wouldn't 2 new hudson tunnels allow for more NJ Transit Rush Hour Trains to operate into and out of Manhattan, even without Block 780?

If the 7 Train to NJ gets built, at least 2 stations should be built between Secaucus Junction and Hudson Yards.

 

[Thirdrail7]

But wouldn't 2 new hudson tunnels allow for more NJ Transit Rush Hour Trains to operate into and out of Manhattan, even without Block 780?

That's the whole problem. What good are new tunnels if you don't expand NYP? You just have more traffic being stuffed into the existing 21 track plant. This will not do.

But wouldn't 2 new hudson tunnels allow for more NJ Transit Rush Hour Trains to operate into and out of Manhattan, even without Block 780?

If the 7 Train to NJ gets built, at least 2 stations should be built between Secaucus Junction and Hudson Yards.

I completely disagree. What would make people want to get off at SEC if they will get stuffed with additional NJ traffic? They may as well stay on the NJT and connect to the various subways at NYP.

Furthermore, I still maintain Hoboken should be bypassed at all costs and make those people utilize the ferry.  If you don't, you're just recreating the same problem in a smaller venue.

Diversify your options!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!