Palmetto 89 Incident in Chester, Pa. (4/3/16)

[jis]

Here is a report on the update:

http://6abc.com/news/ntsb-backhoe-was-on-track-amtrak-train-was-traveling/1274225/

The video is not from the news conference at 5:30pm, but the text is updated after the news conference apparently.

Ah yes, the speed is said to have been 106mph in a territory where MAS is 110mph for Class B trains. The fact that it was doing that would strongly suggest that it had Clear signal and no TSRs or PSRs were in effect at the time on that segment of track, if ACSES II was working correctly, that is.

 

[pksundevil]

From the NTSB... The backhoe was on the active track. They don't yet know why. The camera has good footage up to the impact. Train was going 106 before emergency mode 5 seconds before impact. The WSJ reports the supervisor was "racing" to try to get the worker off the track. They are looking into why the backhoe was on the track, was the track properly fouled, etc.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

It is our understanding that there has been an update by the NTSB. We are un-locking this thread with the hopes that relevant information will be posted.

Thank you for avoiding snarky comments and personal insults and attacks.

Aw, I can't snark at Jis for beating me to finding the 6abc article as that's my station. I had been monitoring it and didn't see the update.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Here is a report on the update:

http://6abc.com/news/ntsb-backhoe-was-on-track-amtrak-train-was-traveling/1274225/

Thanks jis! The voice of reason as usual!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Here is a report on the update:

http://6abc.com/news/ntsb-backhoe-was-on-track-amtrak-train-was-traveling/1274225/

Lots of information to chew on. It's surprisingly how many fatal incidents Amtrak has suffered recently.

 

[jis]

I read one weird observation by someone..... Amtrak has this program in place called safe2safer or some such which started a while back. Apparently the rate of incidents have doubles since the program started, which would seem to be exactly the opposite of what one would expect if the program was effective. It is hard to make head or tail of the one liner claim since it is not clear how incidents are counted etc. But apparently the program has created a bit of controversy within the work force and buy in into the program is probably less than is desirable. If this is true this would indicate yet another failure of the current executives at Amtrak. I caution you that the jury is still out. Boardman said that they are going to double the effort in the program. It would be interesting to see if that halves or doubles the rate of incidents.

If anyone has any more concrete information on this and is able to share such info would be most welcome. But of course I do not expect anyone to risk their jobs or anything like that just chasing after a persistent rumor.

 

[Triley]

I read one weird observation by someone..... Amtrak has this program in place called safe2safer or some such which started a while back. Apparently the rate of incidents have doubles since the program started, which would seem to be exactly the opposite of what one would expect if the program was effective. It is hard to make head or tail of the one liner claim since it is not clear how incidents are counted etc. But apparently the program has created a bit of controversy within the work force and buy in into the program is probably less than is desirable. If this is true this would indicate yet another failure of the current executives at Amtrak. I caution you that the jury is still out. Boardman said that they are going to double the effort in the program. It would be interesting to see if that halves or doubles the rate of incidents.

If anyone has any more concrete information on this and is able to share such info would be most welcome. But of course I do not expect anyone to risk their jobs or anything like that just chasing after a persistent rumor.

The thing with incidents "doubling" since Safe2Safer started is rather bogus. The amount of reported incidents may have doubled, but this is due to a safer environment with management when it comes to reported injuries. From what I heard, management use to frown upon injuries being reported because it made them/their peers look bad.

Then again, Safe2Safer has been around since I've started, and I volunteered to be trained as an observer so I can coach my peers, so obviously I have no issues with the system. In fact, it actually has made me more conscious about moving about safely when working aboard the trains.

Regardless, this has more to do with personal system in the sense of having the required safety gear for the craft/job required, proper shoes, "smart" techniques when walking around, proper lifting, etc. Doesn't really pertain to motor operations or incidents that go as deep as this.

 

[jis]

Triley, thanks for the info, and good to clear the air about rumors floating around. I was wondering whether larger number of reported incidents would be the result of creating a less hostile environment allowing people to report things that they would not in a more hostile environment. When United instituted such a while back they had an initial spike in their statistics too. I guess in the steady state of operation it should show a trend towards decrease of reporting rates as the environment becomes safer due to improvement in procedures and training etc.

 

[jis]

Here is much more additional info from Trains magazine, though it is hard to verify the veracity of information from an unidentified source. But in the past Trains' sources have been relatively reliable.

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/04/04-palmetto-update

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

Here is a report on the update:

http://6abc.com/news/ntsb-backhoe-was-on-track-amtrak-train-was-traveling/1274225/

Lots of information to chew on. It's surprisingly how many fatal incidents Amtrak has suffered recently.

Indeed, I can agree with you. So far, it sure hasn't been quite a good year for Amtrak. First, the Philly accident last year, then loco #66 on one of the Illinois regionals hit a container truck, then the Chief derailed in Cimmaron, Amtrak trains have killed pedestrians, and now this crash. Pretty bad luck this year. Way too many unreasonable accidents.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

here is another : http://www.nbcnews.com/video/investigators-human-error-may-have-caused-deadly-amtrak-crash-658806851533

 

[Acela150]

Here is a report on the update:

http://6abc.com/news/ntsb-backhoe-was-on-track-amtrak-train-was-traveling/1274225/

Lots of information to chew on. It's surprisingly how many fatal incidents Amtrak has suffered recently.

Indeed, I can agree with you. So far, it sure hasn't been quite a good year for Amtrak. First, the Philly accident last year, then loco #66 on one of the Illinois regionals hit a container truck, then the Chief derailed in Cimmaron, Amtrak trains have killed pedestrians, and now this crash. Pretty bad luck this year. Way too many unreasonable accidents.

Grade Crossing Incidents happen everyday. Just because Amtrak is involved in one doesn't change the fact that they happen everyday.

Ridership has taken a hit due to the Frankford Junction Incident and the derailment in Vermont, but another factor is gas is cheap. The derailment in Vermont was due to a rockslide. Nothing within Human control.

 

[StriderGDM]

I read one weird observation by someone..... Amtrak has this program in place called safe2safer or some such which started a while back. Apparently the rate of incidents have doubles since the program started, which would seem to be exactly the opposite of what one would expect if the program was effective. It is hard to make head or tail of the one liner claim since it is not clear how incidents are counted etc. But apparently the program has created a bit of controversy within the work force and buy in into the program is probably less than is desirable. If this is true this would indicate yet another failure of the current executives at Amtrak. I caution you that the jury is still out. Boardman said that they are going to double the effort in the program. It would be interesting to see if that halves or doubles the rate of incidents.

If anyone has any more concrete information on this and is able to share such info would be most welcome. But of course I do not expect anyone to risk their jobs or anything like that just chasing after a persistent rumor.

The thing with incidents "doubling" since Safe2Safer started is rather bogus. The amount of reported incidents may have doubled, but this is due to a safer environment with management when it comes to reported injuries. From what I heard, management use to frown upon injuries being reported because it made them/their peers look bad.

Then again, Safe2Safer has been around since I've started, and I volunteered to be trained as an observer so I can coach my peers, so obviously I have no issues with the system. In fact, it actually has made me more conscious about moving about safely when working aboard the trains.

Regardless, this has more to do with personal system in the sense of having the required safety gear for the craft/job required, proper shoes, "smart" techniques when walking around, proper lifting, etc. Doesn't really pertain to motor operations or incidents that go as deep as this.

Probably should be broken off to its own thread, but as I recall Safe2Safer is based on the Aviation Safety Reporting Systems from the FAA. The idea is that more that we know about accidents, the better we can prevent them. They're anonymous (and with the ASRS handled by NASA as a neutral 3rd party). Rather than punishing people for accidents (especially ones that don't result in loss of life or equipment) it encourages people to report.

 

[seat38a]

I was on the train last year when this happened. Then the train after us also hit another car near Fullerton. In my case, the moron drove off from where the Fire Truck is, the just left the truck smack dab in the middle of the track. No one was killed but F*(#ed up the day for many many people. Weather its on the freeway or the railroad, or in some cases fly off the freeway onto the railroad, Amtrak just can't seem to get a break from drivers making bad decisions. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the SWC derailment also caused by a truck damaging the rails?

IMG_0167 by B H, on Flickr

IMG_0164 by B H, on Flickr

IMG_0190 by B H, on Flickr

IMG_0194 by B H, on Flickr

 

[HighBall]

Inside the train. Photos taken by a doctor.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3523396/Shocking-pictures-devastation-inside-Amtrak-train-collided-backhoe-emerges-two-killed-track-workers-colossal-error-moments-crash.html

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/04/23/32D9B56900000578-3523396-image-a-1_1459810413986.jpg[/IMG]

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

Inside the train. Photos taken by a doctor.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3523396/Shocking-pictures-devastation-inside-Amtrak-train-collided-backhoe-emerges-two-killed-track-workers-colossal-error-moments-crash.html

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/04/23/32D9B56900000578-3523396-image-a-1_1459810413986.jpg[/IMG]

Yeouch!

 

[jis]

From the Washington Post after the NTSB presser:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/amtrak-train-struck-backhoe-at-106-mph-2-killed-on-track/2016/04/04/ac5cce2e-facc-11e5-813a-90ab563f0dde_story.html

And a pretty concise, further updated report from 6ABC:

http://6abc.com/news/victims-in-fatal-amtrak-collision-idd/1274225/

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

Well, turns out the train was ACTUALLY travelling at 106 MPH! No wonder it traveled for about a mile after derailing!

But again, despite the damage to the locomotive, the engineer sure was lucky he wasn't killed! And definitely lucky he didn't sustain life-threatening injuries!

Had those new locos not been equipped with such safety features, such as Crash Energy Management, it could've been about 50 times worse!

 

[Hal]

I read one weird observation by someone..... Amtrak has this program in place called safe2safer or some such which started a while back. Apparently the rate of incidents have doubles since the program started, which would seem to be exactly the opposite of what one would expect if the program was effective. It is hard to make head or tail of the one liner claim since it is not clear how incidents are counted etc. But apparently the program has created a bit of controversy within the work force and buy in into the program is probably less than is desirable. If this is true this would indicate yet another failure of the current executives at Amtrak. I caution you that the jury is still out. Boardman said that they are going to double the effort in the program. It would be interesting to see if that halves or doubles the rate of incidents.

If anyone has any more concrete information on this and is able to share such info would be most welcome. But of course I do not expect anyone to risk their jobs or anything like that just chasing after a persistent rumor.

The thing with incidents "doubling" since Safe2Safer started is rather bogus. The amount of reported incidents may have doubled, but this is due to a safer environment with management when it comes to reported injuries. From what I heard, management use to frown upon injuries being reported because it made them/their peers look bad.

Then again, Safe2Safer has been around since I've started, and I volunteered to be trained as an observer so I can coach my peers, so obviously I have no issues with the system. In fact, it actually has made me more conscious about moving about safely when working aboard the trains.

Regardless, this has more to do with personal system in the sense of having the required safety gear for the craft/job required, proper shoes, "smart" techniques when walking around, proper lifting, etc. Doesn't really pertain to motor operations or incidents that go as deep as this.

Probably should be broken off to its own thread, but as I recall Safe2Safer is based on the Aviation Safety Reporting Systems from the FAA. The idea is that more that we know about accidents, the better we can prevent them. They're anonymous (and with the ASRS handled by NASA as a neutral 3rd party). Rather than punishing people for accidents (especially ones that don't result in loss of life or equipment) it encourages people to report.

No. You are thinking of the Close Call Reporting System. That is not Safe2Safer. Safe2Safer is a phony safety program where coworkers observe other coworkers and report they are doing stuff unsafe like not watching where walking or lifting something properly. It has nothing to do with operating safety. Many workers like the program because they get days off to observe. Safe2Safer does not cause more accidents and likely does not prevent many injuries which is what the program is about. Injuries like getting a finger into a pinch point. The idea of the program is to lower time off and claims from injuries. It's a feel good worker participation program. And I suspect a bonanza to the contractor who sold Amtrak the program.
Now Amtrak is going in another direction, the Cardinal Rules. Blame the workers and punish them. I am not going to go into that. Like Safe2Safer that is not a real safety program either.

Amtrak does have a safety problem. Amtrak management...

 

[Hal]

https://www.bmwe.org/cms/file/04052016_082049_BMWED%20Statement%20on%20Fatal%20Amtrak%20Accident,%20Chester%20PA%20FINAL.pdf

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[CCC1007]

Well, turns out the train was ACTUALLY travelling at 106 MPH! No wonder it traveled for about a mile after derailing!

But again, despite the damage to the locomotive, the engineer sure was lucky he wasn't killed! And definitely lucky he didn't sustain life-threatening injuries!

Had those new locos not been equipped with such safety features, such as Crash Energy Management, it could've been about 50 times worse!

Or it could have been a multi axle derailment fouling all four tracks and tearing them up. Think On the order of Chase, MD.

 

[jis]

Yeah, given that it was a 106mph event, the damage is surprisingly small. Thank the stars or whatever for that piece of good luck.

 

[OBS]

With all due respect to my coworker Triley, I have to totally agree with every word HAL stated about both safe 2 safer and the "wonderful" Cardinal rules safety project!

 

[jis]

With all due respect to my coworker Triley, I have to totally agree with every word HAL stated about both safe 2 safer and the "wonderful" Cardinal rules safety project!

Hal's message certainly clarified the scope of the issue and also to some extent seemed to be in line with the impression I got from reading the Wall Street Journal article on this matter. I suppose this post further corroborates that position.

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

Yeah, given that it was a 106mph event, the damage is surprisingly small. Thank the stars or whatever for that piece of good luck.

The credit ought to go to Siemens. They were the ones that built the locos.