Piedmont and North Carolina DOT Service discussion

[TheVig]

Records keep falling

https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2023/2023-11-17-nc-by-train-breaks-records.aspx

It's a wonderful thing.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

It's a wonderful thing.

it would be nice to have stuff like this guarantee 3 of 12 proposals be funded from proposals from last spring.

Asheville, Winston-Salem, and Wilmington would be my picks

 

[west point]

65,980 in 31 days =2128 per day, 10 one way trains a day = ~~- 213per train. Even if only 1/3 travel full distances that would have loads at some point about 140 That would fill up 3 coaches very close to full. It appears that NC and VA are leading the way in the southeast for revival of train travel. IMO the next 2 states to follow will be SC and GA. How soon? Absolutely no idea.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

More grants on top of the $1B announced earlier.
-----------

Dec 5 2023

The following corridors were awarded $500,000 for identification and development:

• Charlotte to Washington, DC Corridor
  • The proposed Corridor would provide improvements to the existing state-supported Carolinian service between Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC (with existing service continuing north to New York, NY) by improving/adding services in Greensboro, Winston-Salem, High Point, Raleigh, Durham, Salisbury, and Burlington NC and Petersburg, Richmond, Fredericksburg and Alexandria, Virginia by addressing infrastructure capacity constraints. Improvements include constructing/rehabilitating a partially abandoned alignment between Raleigh, NC and Petersburg, VA that is more direct than the existing routing through Rocky Mount, NC, potentially shaving more than an hour off the end-to-end travel time.
• Charlotte to Atlanta, Georgia Corridor
  • The proposed Corridor would provide new service on a new high speed rail alignment between Charlotte, NC and Atlanta, GA, with potential intermediate stops including Greenville-Spartanburg International Airport in South Carolina and Augusta and Athens, GA, then serving a downtown Atlanta station and terminating at Atlanta’s Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport, the world’s busiest airport.
• Charlotte to Kings Mountain Corridor
  • The proposed Corridor would connect Kings Mountain, North Carolina to Charlotte, North Carolina. The proposed Corridor would provide new service on existing alignment with capacity improvements west of the Charlotte Gateway Station and likely extending service to Kings Mountain, in addition to track, crossover, or signal improvements.
• Winston-Salem to Raleigh Corridor
  • The proposed Corridor would connect Winston-Salem, NC with Raleigh, NC, with intermediate stops at Greensboro, Burlington, Durham, and Cary, complementing the existing state-supported Piedmont and Carolinian services. The proposed Corridor would also include new frequencies, improvements to reliability, and new stations.
• Fayetteville to Raleigh Corridor
  • The proposed Corridor would provide a new service connecting Fayetteville, NC with Raleigh, NC, with intermediate stops at Lillington, and Fuquay-Varina, NC, using an existing alignment.
• Wilmington to Raleigh Corridor
  • The proposed Corridor would connect Raleigh, NC to Wilmington, NC. The proposed Corridor would provide new service on an existing alignment, part of which has been abandoned and would need to be reconstructed, to include new stations.
• Asheville to Salisbury Corridor
  • The proposed Corridor would provide new service on an existing alignment between Asheville and Salisbury in western North Carolina, following a line that last hosted passenger trains in 1975.

 

[jis]

Here is a slightly old but very informative article about the Charlotte Gateway Station:

https://acppubs.com/CON/article/D87...-intermodal-transportation-to-the-uptown-area
Phase 1 has been completed on schedule and under budget.

Work on Phase 2 which consists of building the platform canopy and the concourse level of the station building is starting. Upon its completion in a couple of years service will be moved to this station and the current Tyrone St. station will be demolished.

A quick look at Google Map shows that the storage yard associated with the station is also in place.

This is the first article that I have read that mentions that easement for a third track and side platform is part of the plan. Looking at the Google Map Satellite View I had arrived at that conclusion before I read this article verifying the suspicion. It is also marked out prominently in this station area plan Autodesk set from 2017 done by Parsons...

https://www.autodesk.com/community/...-gateway-station-multimodal-station-area-plan

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

Here is a slightly old but very informative article about the Charlotte Gateway Station:

https://acppubs.com/CON/article/D87...-intermodal-transportation-to-the-uptown-area
Phase 1 has been completed on schedule and under budget.

Work on Phase 2 which consists of building the platform canopy and the concourse level of the station building is starting. Upon its completion in a couple of years service will be moved to this station and the current Tyrone St. station will be demolished.

A quick look at Google Map shows that the storage yard associated with the station is also in place.

This is the first article that I have read that mentions that easement for a third track and side platform is part of the plan. Looking at the Google Map Satellite View I had arrived at that conclusion before I read this article verifying the suspicion. It is also marked out prominently in this station area plan Autodesk set from 2017 done by Parsons...

https://www.autodesk.com/community/...-gateway-station-multimodal-station-area-plan

Where is the 3rd track and side platform? It that the white pathway? I thought that was a walking path. I am clearly not seeing what you are seeing it seems.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Where is the 3rd track and side platform? It that the white pathway? I thought that was a walking path. I am clearly not seeing what you are seeing it seems.

My guess is it’s the red line.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

My guess is it’s the red line.

I assume that is an edit of about 15 minutes ago as could not have missed something so clearly there and I do NOT remember a red line before.

 

[Anderson]

65,980 in 31 days =2128 per day, 10 one way trains a day = ~~- 213per train. Even if only 1/3 travel full distances that would have loads at some point about 140 That would fill up 3 coaches very close to full. It appears that NC and VA are leading the way in the southeast for revival of train travel. IMO the next 2 states to follow will be SC and GA. How soon? Absolutely no idea.

Don't forget FL, with Brightline. Richmond Staples Mill was the busiest intercity station south of DC for a long time. Even if you define the South Florida stuff as "commuter", Brightline Orlando shot it out of #1 on day one.

 

[west point]

If all the NC DOT plans come to fruition in the future have to ask will CLT Gateway station have enough tracks with platforms? Connecting trains are a real consideration.

 

[Anderson]

More grants on top of the $1B announced earlier.
-----------

Dec 5 2023

The following corridors were awarded $500,000 for identification and development:

• Charlotte to Washington, DC Corridor
  • The proposed Corridor would provide improvements to the existing state-supported Carolinian service between Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC (with existing service continuing north to New York, NY) by improving/adding services in Greensboro, Winston-Salem, High Point, Raleigh, Durham, Salisbury, and Burlington NC and Petersburg, Richmond, Fredericksburg and Alexandria, Virginia by addressing infrastructure capacity constraints. Improvements include constructing/rehabilitating a partially abandoned alignment between Raleigh, NC and Petersburg, VA that is more direct than the existing routing through Rocky Mount, NC, potentially shaving more than an hour off the end-to-end travel time.
• Charlotte to Atlanta, Georgia Corridor
  • The proposed Corridor would provide new service on a new high speed rail alignment between Charlotte, NC and Atlanta, GA, with potential intermediate stops including Greenville-Spartanburg International Airport in South Carolina and Augusta and Athens, GA, then serving a downtown Atlanta station and terminating at Atlanta’s Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport, the world’s busiest airport.
• Charlotte to Kings Mountain Corridor
  • The proposed Corridor would connect Kings Mountain, North Carolina to Charlotte, North Carolina. The proposed Corridor would provide new service on existing alignment with capacity improvements west of the Charlotte Gateway Station and likely extending service to Kings Mountain, in addition to track, crossover, or signal improvements.
• Winston-Salem to Raleigh Corridor
  • The proposed Corridor would connect Winston-Salem, NC with Raleigh, NC, with intermediate stops at Greensboro, Burlington, Durham, and Cary, complementing the existing state-supported Piedmont and Carolinian services. The proposed Corridor would also include new frequencies, improvements to reliability, and new stations.
• Fayetteville to Raleigh Corridor
  • The proposed Corridor would provide a new service connecting Fayetteville, NC with Raleigh, NC, with intermediate stops at Lillington, and Fuquay-Varina, NC, using an existing alignment.
• Wilmington to Raleigh Corridor
  • The proposed Corridor would connect Raleigh, NC to Wilmington, NC. The proposed Corridor would provide new service on an existing alignment, part of which has been abandoned and would need to be reconstructed, to include new stations.
• Asheville to Salisbury Corridor
  • The proposed Corridor would provide new service on an existing alignment between Asheville and Salisbury in western North Carolina, following a line that last hosted passenger trains in 1975.

I have to ask if pharmaceuticals were involved in this particular bit of route suggestion. Athens is a justifiable diversion, particularly if you don't want to have to knock through the suburban sprawl on the NE side of Atlanta. It probably adds 10 miles vs a "direct" route along I-85 stopping at Greenville-Spartanburg (or in Greenville and/or Spartanburg). However, throwing Augusta in adds 90 miles.

Roughly speaking, you've got the following routing distances:
Charlotte-CLT-GSP-I-85: 226 miles
Charlotte-CLT-GSP-Athens: 235 miles
Charlotte-Columbia-Augusta-Athens: 295 miles
Charlotte-CLT-Columbia-Augusta-Athens: 313 miles
Charlotte-CLT-GSP-Augusta-Athens: 323 miles

I'm not sure whether adding Columbia makes up for losing GSP, but if I'm designing an HSR line I know I wouldn't want to add roughly 50% to the distance (and probably an hour to the runtime - you're probably killing the case for people to take the train instead of flying for connections with that much added distance) just to pick up a single stop like that.

Columbia-Augusta makes sense as a routing choice. CLT-GSP makes sense as a routing choice. Drunkenly veering all over the way between the two cities like you've got a malfunctioning GPS system...doesn't (I'd dare say it runs a good chance of seriously hurting GSP-Atlanta traffic because you're almost doubling the distance...basically you've got to really lay on the throttle to beat the interstate at that point).

To be clear, if you asked me what I'd do to design the system, I'd say "Build Charlotte-GSP-Athens-Atlanta as a 125 MPH-ish project and engineer it to get to an average speed just north of 80 MPH for your limited-stop trains, then build Athens-Columbia-Charlotte (possibly via the Charlotte airport, possibly not) as a Phase II project (with similar parameters - you won't get much endpoint traffic, but Augusta and Columbia are probably a big enough pair of traffic generators to justify something), with some additional stuff (Savannah and Charleston loom here, and Columbus [GA] or Macon [GA] could also slide in, as could Columbia-Raleigh) as a possible Phase III".

Edit:
I figure it's worth noting that if you ran this with some "true HSR" and an average speed of 125 MPH, the most direct routing gives you 1:48 or so from end to end. Adding in Athens gets you to 1:53. The proposed routing gets up to 2:35. Now, that's still quite fast, but it seems certain to limit the appeal if the system ever grows beyond the one segment, and I sort-of have to assume that would be the objective.

BTW, my preference for 125/80 is based in enabling that: Going with such a path, it becomes quite easy to simply run all of the Raleigh-Charlotte trains onwards that you want, and lo and behold you have about a 6-7 hour corridor from Atlanta to Raleigh rather than forcing transfers. If you can put the new Acelas on a mixed-use line in NC, then I have no problem running a lot faster - I just don't want folks forced into an unnecessary (and ridership-losing) transfer because of divergent technologies being in play.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

If all the NC DOT plans come to fruition in the future have to ask will CLT Gateway station have enough tracks with platforms? Connecting trains are a real consideration.

There would need to be some work done I would think. Same for Raleigh , though they sit in a wye a plan to spread out with a platform on the S line. If Winston-Salemto Raleigh makes the final cut, Greensboro might need more space as well.

 

[Anderson]

There would need to be some work done I would think. Same for Raleigh , though they sit in a wye a plan to spread out with a platform on the S line. If Winston-Salemto Raleigh makes the final cut, Greensboro might need more space as well.

Greensboro is probably alright presuming that you don't get trains terminating there (Brightline can make 1-2x/hr work with two tracks and a single platform at all the intermediate stations; Boca is the oddball because they could only use one side platform instead of doing an island IIRC). Even if you do terminate a Winston-Salem shuttle service there, they're probably fine - just send any excess Winston-Salem shuttles over to the Crescent platform in a pinch (there's no point in the day when that pair of platforms should get more than one other train, and you might even be able to get use of one of the tracks on that platform with a connecting track (with the only loss being the gym that's plopped in between the two lines). But even a reasonably frequent Winston-Salem service plus the SEHSR plans seem unlikely to force GRO past about one tph in each direction, and you'd really need to get to at least 2-3 tph to actually need more tracks on a regular basis.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

Greensboro is probably alright presuming that you don't get trains terminating there (Brightline can make 1-2x/hr work with two tracks and a single platform at all the intermediate stations; Boca is the oddball because they could only use one side platform instead of doing an island IIRC). Even if you do terminate a Winston-Salem shuttle service there, they're probably fine - just send any excess Winston-Salem shuttles over to the Crescent platform in a pinch (there's no point in the day when that pair of platforms should get more than one other train, and you might even be able to get use of one of the tracks on that platform with a connecting track (with the only loss being the gym that's plopped in between the two lines). But even a reasonably frequent Winston-Salem service plus the SEHSR plans seem unlikely to force GRO past about one tph in each direction, and you'd really need to get to at least 2-3 tph to actually need more tracks on a regular basis.

The Crescent platform gets a good bit of freight, including time-sensitive intermodal and those pass through throughout the day and including when Piedmont trains are loading on the other platform. I see an intermodal around 3:30 PM or so. There is also one around 7:30 or so. With the closing of the hump at Linwood, Greensboro has a full freight yard at Pomona and it is not unusual to see a freight hanging out at the side track at CP McLeansville coming in from the east due to lack of space in Greensboro. And that is during the day. And already it is not uncommon to see both sides of the Piedmont platform to have an Amtrak train going in opposite directions. It should not happen but it does if one or the other train in not on time. If W-S is a through train to Raleigh as I assume it would be as the grant mentions Greensboro as a stop, pulling over to the Crescent platform would not be practical. Maybe there is enough room to add a connection from the Crescent platform back to the NC-line, but that is a definite maybe as there is not a lot of space before a bridge over Murrow Blvd. There is a company right there that does cross-fit training and I have always been surprised there is not a fence around their property. I have seen their customers outside running in the morning while I was waiting on the Carolinian and they could run up to the tracks and cause problems if they so choosed.


In an ideal world I wish there would be space to either slide the freight tracks away from the platforms so there could be a high level platform at GRO at least on the Piedmont platform. That would go a long way in speeding up loading/unloading passengers. The Crescent platform only sees two trains a day and given the time of the entire journery the load time is not a noticible factor in the time of the trip end to end. But the Piedmont platform sees a lot of trains with more coming and using the wheelchair lift is slow when used. I happend to train host the Sunday after the NC A&T homecoming game. The platform was packed. That is not daily of course but there are times GRO is the largest stop on the Carolinian or Piedmonts trains and all of those trains are coming from another station and going on to another station after the stop. A slow load time in Charlotte is not a big deal as they let passengers head to the train 10-15 minutes or so before the train leaves the station. And at Raleigh one is at the last stop so unloading time is not critical or it is a crew change/fresh air/smoke stop so there is time for a slow unload/load if needed on the Carolinian.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

And as soon as I post the above I find myself station hosting this very morning. 71 was late so both 71 heading to Charlotte and 80 heading to Raleigh were at the platform at the same time. There were around 250 people on the platform between a few employees, myself volunteering, parents helping unaccompanied minors, and then everyone either getting on or off both trains. I don't think I have ever seen GRO that crowded. Lucky the Crescent was on time this morning into GRO.

 

[TheVig]

And as soon as I post the above I find myself station hosting this very morning. 71 was late so both 71 heading to Charlotte and 80 heading to Raleigh were at the platform at the same time. There were around 250 people on the platform between a few employees, myself volunteering, parents helping unaccompanied minors, and then everyone either getting on or off both trains. I don't think I have ever seen GRO that crowded. Lucky the Crescent was on time this morning into GRO.

I was on 80 this morning from CLT to GRO. I’m happy we had business class tickets. When I walked into the Charlotte station, it was packed like a sardine can. Solo coach riders, had no choice but to make a friend on Amtrak today. No seat hoarding.

Took 73 home. Got out to my car, and people were still exiting the train.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

I was on 80 this morning from CLT to GRO. I’m happy we had business class tickets. When I walked into the Charlotte station, it was packed like a sardine can. Solo coach riders, had no choice but to make a friend on Amtrak today. No seat hoarding.

Took 73 home. Got out to my car, and people were still exiting the train.

Well my cover is blown.

Did you come up for an early lunch? You only had about 3 hours in Greensboro. Enough to walk over to Elm St and back.
Holiday travel is picking up. I am scheduled to station host tomorrow and I am thinking of doing so again next weekend just to help with some of the simple questions that passengers have.

 

[TheVig]

Well my cover is blown.

Did you come up for an early lunch? You only had about 3 hours in Greensboro. Enough to walk over to Elm St and back.
Holiday travel is picking up. I am scheduled to station host tomorrow and I am thinking of doing so again next weekend just to help with some of the simple questions that passengers have.

It was a quick business meeting.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

March 2024 highest ridership for month EVER.

https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-re...4-11-nc-by-train-highest-ridership-month.aspx

 

[Septa9739]

That’s a huge deal given March is not typically a high point in the ridership year. It suggests plenty of room to run.

 

[west point]

That’s a huge deal given March is not typically a high point in the ridership year. It suggests plenty of room to run.

Good point. FEB with 29 days was over JAN, March even with 2 more days had a daily average higher than FEB. Now March did have 5 weekends so do not know if weekends VS week days helped March. If one of these trains was a thru ATL - CLT - RGH - RVR - WASH riders might ballon.

Now for HSR ATL - CLT the city of Anderson is forgotten. That started with I-85 routed north of /Anderson thru more difficult terrain,

 

[jis]

North Carolina gets agreement with NS for potential commuter service around Charlotte

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...lk-southern-have-deal-for-commuter-rail-line/

 

[thefirewarde]

There were also recent VA ROW purchases that might help get a second Charlotte - Greensboro - Lynchburg Regional going. I don't think VA would be ready for that before the fifth Piedmont is in action, but at what point does the NCRR from Greensboro to Charlotte run short of capacity in NS's eyes?

 

[jis]

There were also recent VA ROW purchases that might help get a second Charlotte - Greensboro - Lynchburg Regional going. I don't think VA would be ready for that before the fifth Piedmont is in action, but at what point does the NCRR from Greensboro to Charlotte run short of capacity in NS's eyes?

Has VA ever talked about a service through Lynchburg and Danville? That is the one that could then be extended to Charlotte. VA seems to be focused on adding frequency to Roanoke or as Lynchburg terminators so far.

Here is a nice consolidated diagram that I found on Reddit, of every proposal that is currently on the table. Note that Palm Bay shown in Florida should be Cocoa.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

"Charlotte to the Northeast via Lynchburg" a.k.a. "Lynchburg to Charlotte" was mentioned as an aside in official plans, but it's not in the major plans as they developed.

• Southeast Corridor Commission 2022
• NC State Rail Plan 2015 (the most recent)
• VA State Rail Plan 2017/2018 on the Wayback Machine (but not the 2022 plan, more of a multimedia thing)

The only details are in the NC document. Capital costs perhaps $35.6m, pax slots would be needed from NS on NCRR, and as for NC's share of operational costs:

A new service connecting Charlotte and Greensboro to the Northeast via Lynchburg is not within the near term, thus operating costs of that service are not reflected in Table 5-9. However, based on preliminary information prepared by Amtrak, North Carolina expects its share of Section 209 payments supporting the service to be approximately $5.2 million per year. More detailed operation costs for this service and additional operating needs may be identified from the anticipated planning studies listed in Section 5.7.

So they talked about it! And at least one person at a Virginia public meeting did too. Obviously the two states have a lot on their plates, and maybe aren't sure of its success, as that is measured these days.

One story is that Liberty University offered to help with a new station on the south side of Lynchburg, back when its second leader had real estate and other things on his mind, which all ended in a change of management.

Population trends in Southside Virginia are still down, but not as much since 2020, with people now moving in. And Lynchburg metro itself has always been fairly strong. The recent standout is the Blacksburg area.