Pioneer Study

[bretton88]

Well, the Pioneer study is finally out. First thoughts are that UP is using the restoration as a potential gold mine. They're asking for a lot of money. Second, operating costs are high, but may be in-line with what the normal operation costs are for other LD trains. My biggest beef is with the estimated ridership. It seems like Amtrak lowballed it. The predicted ridership numbers are what the Pioneer had in 1993. Things have changed for the better and will probably get higher ridership. I do understand the need for more superliners. Amtrak just doesn't have the extra superliners lying around for daily service anymore. My guess is that this will get reinstated, despite the high cost, because of the general need for more transportation options in that area. The study acknowledges this fact. The route also has considerable political support in the Senate. Here's the link:

Pioneer Study

Keep in mind this is a draft, so there may be a few changes by the final product given to Congress on Oct. 15th. Lets hear your thoughts on this. Maybe this will be the impetus for a Superliner 3 order? We can only hope!

 

[jmbgeg]

Well, the Pioneer study is finally out. First thoughts are that UP is using the restoration as a potential gold mine. They're asking for a lot of money. Second, operating costs are high, but may be in-line with what the normal operation costs are for other LD trains. My biggest beef is with the estimated ridership. It seems like Amtrak lowballed it. The predicted ridership numbers are what the Pioneer had in 1993. Things have changed for the better and will probably get higher ridership. I do understand the need for more superliners. Amtrak just doesn't have the extra superliners lying around for daily service anymore. My guess is that this will get reinstated, despite the high cost, because of the general need for more transportation options in that area. The study acknowledges this fact. The route also has considerable political support in the Senate. Here's the link:Pioneer Study

Keep in mind this is a draft, so there may be a few changes by the final product given to Congress on Oct. 15th. Lets hear your thoughts on this. Maybe this will be the impetus for a Superliner 3 order? We can only hope!

Long read. Intersting.

 

[bretton88]

I did find this interesting:

A purchase of new bi-level equipment for the Pioneer, which would take approximately four years for design, procurement and construction, would have to be part of a larger equipment order. The high upfront design and tooling costs associated with building passenger rail cars make it uneconomic to construct them in small quantities. Amtrak is preparing a comprehensive equipment fleet strategy that will, among other things, address the existing shortage of bi-level Superliner cars that limits capacity on Western long distance trains. An order for new bi-level equipment, which would be subject to funding availability, could provide the means to acquire additional equipment for new services such as a restored Pioneer.

So this gives us a glimpse into the question about whether Amtrak has any plans for superliners. This seems to indicate yes. It also is part of the reason why the startup cost is so high. My only disappointment is that they plan to run this route with a diner/lounge. This would be a great route for a SSL!

 

[acelafan]

Well, the Pioneer study is finally out. First thoughts are that UP is using the restoration as a potential gold mine. They're asking for a lot of money. Second, operating costs are high, but may be in-line with what the normal operation costs are for other LD trains. My biggest beef is with the estimated ridership. It seems like Amtrak lowballed it. The predicted ridership numbers are what the Pioneer had in 1993. Things have changed for the better and will probably get higher ridership. I do understand the need for more superliners. Amtrak just doesn't have the extra superliners lying around for daily service anymore. My guess is that this will get reinstated, despite the high cost, because of the general need for more transportation options in that area. The study acknowledges this fact. The route also has considerable political support in the Senate. Here's the link:Pioneer Study

Keep in mind this is a draft, so there may be a few changes by the final product given to Congress on Oct. 15th. Lets hear your thoughts on this. Maybe this will be the impetus for a Superliner 3 order? We can only hope!

Map of proposed route here. I agree that UP is seeing this an opportunity to upgrade several portions of their infrastructure (signaling system & short sidings < 8000ft). I hadn't thought about the projected ridership - maybe they kept the numbers similar to the early 90s because of the large increase in regional airline service. The study definitely has an undertone of support to reinstate the route, despite its significant projected financial loss to Amtrak and upfront capital costs.

Question..."the report assumes that the reintroduced Pioneer would operate daily, and would be comprised of a locomotive and four Superliner cars: Coach, Coach/Baggage, Sleeper, and Diner/Lounge." With that small of a consist indicating such few passengers, do you think Congress is going to go for it? Was the train always that short while Amtrak operated the Pioneer?

 

[transit54]

Would a consist that short make the Pioneer the smallest LD Amtrak train in terms of capacity? The Cardinal only runs with a sleeper, but when I was on it, I seemed to recall at least three coaches. Though I could be wrong.

 

[bretton88]

Would a consist that short make the Pioneer the smallest LD Amtrak train in terms of capacity? The Cardinal only runs with a sleeper, but when I was on it, I seemed to recall at least three coaches. Though I could be wrong.

No, I think that the Pioneer would still have more capacity because it will run superliners instead of single level equipment. Also, if Amtrak orders new superliners, there will be the possibility of expanding the consist. So I wouldn't be too concerned about capacity.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Question..."the report assumes that the reintroduced Pioneer would operate daily, and would be comprised of a locomotive and four Superliner cars: Coach, Coach/Baggage, Sleeper, and Diner/Lounge." With that small of a consist indicating such few passengers, do you think Congress is going to go for it? Was the train always that short while Amtrak operated the Pioneer?

As I recall pictures, it indeed was that short.

Train 26 ca. 1981

 

[sunchaser]

Would a consist that short make the Pioneer the smallest LD Amtrak train in terms of capacity? The Cardinal only runs with a sleeper, but when I was on it, I seemed to recall at least three coaches. Though I could be wrong.

No, I think that the Pioneer would still have more capacity because it will run superliners instead of single level equipment. Also, if Amtrak orders new superliners, there will be the possibility of expanding the consist. So I wouldn't be too concerned about capacity.

That's what I noticed, too. I would think that they would prepare to have at least two sleepers per run, & a SSL.

I hope they choose option #1-SLC-SEA. And I think they will have a lot more riders than they expect.

Also it looks like at least 2013 after they get the $$$$.

I hope they go through with it!

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Would a consist that short make the Pioneer the smallest LD Amtrak train in terms of capacity? The Cardinal only runs with a sleeper, but when I was on it, I seemed to recall at least three coaches. Though I could be wrong.

No, I think that the Pioneer would still have more capacity because it will run superliners instead of single level equipment. Also, if Amtrak orders new superliners, there will be the possibility of expanding the consist. So I wouldn't be too concerned about capacity.

That's what I noticed, too. I would think that they would prepare to have at least two sleepers per run, & a SSL.

I hope they choose option #1-SLC-SEA. And I think they will have a lot more riders than they expect.

Also it looks like at least 2013 after they get the $$$$.

I hope they go through with it!

I don't think there are enough SSL in the system, even with the wrecks they'd probably go on the TE or CONO.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

Question..."the report assumes that the reintroduced Pioneer would operate daily, and would be comprised of a locomotive and four Superliner cars: Coach, Coach/Baggage, Sleeper, and Diner/Lounge." With that small of a consist indicating such few passengers, do you think Congress is going to go for it? Was the train always that short while Amtrak operated the Pioneer?

As I recall pictures, it indeed was that short.

Train 26 ca. 1981

Talk about a rainbow consist! Is that an old Santa Fe highliner??

 

[bretton88]

I personally hope that they go with option 2. Yes, its more expensive, but it serves communities with no existing service (its not just a capacity expansion of the CZ) and its faster. If they chose options 1 or 3, it will probably lose key support from the Wyoming senators. Colorado, Utah, Oregon, Washington, and Idaho's senators and representatives will probably vote for it regardless of what option is chosen. The schedule is also less than optimal with that long layover in SLC for options 1 and 3.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Question..."the report assumes that the reintroduced Pioneer would operate daily, and would be comprised of a locomotive and four Superliner cars: Coach, Coach/Baggage, Sleeper, and Diner/Lounge." With that small of a consist indicating such few passengers, do you think Congress is going to go for it? Was the train always that short while Amtrak operated the Pioneer?

As I recall pictures, it indeed was that short.

Train 26 ca. 1981

Talk about a rainbow consist! Is that an old Santa Fe highliner??

High-level you mean? Yes it is..

 

[the_traveler]

Most or all of this equipment would have to be purchased new, at a projected cost of $141 million for Option 1 (Salt Lake City–Seattle), $123 million for

Option 2 (Denver–Seattle), and $138 million for Options 3 or 4 (Salt Lake City–

Portland or Denver–Portland).

Why are the costs $15 million lower for option 2 (Denver-Seattle) than option 4 (Denver-Portland)? :huh: Option 2 would go thru Portland! :blink:

They are only projecting having about 150 seats available per train? :huh:

 

[Long Train Runnin']

Question..."the report assumes that the reintroduced Pioneer would operate daily, and would be comprised of a locomotive and four Superliner cars: Coach, Coach/Baggage, Sleeper, and Diner/Lounge." With that small of a consist indicating such few passengers, do you think Congress is going to go for it? Was the train always that short while Amtrak operated the Pioneer?

As I recall pictures, it indeed was that short.

Train 26 ca. 1981

Talk about a rainbow consist! Is that an old Santa Fe highliner??

High-level you mean? Yes it is..

Pretty amazing. Thanks I knew it wasn't a superliner!

 

[bretton88]

Question..."the report assumes that the reintroduced Pioneer would operate daily, and would be comprised of a locomotive and four Superliner cars: Coach, Coach/Baggage, Sleeper, and Diner/Lounge." With that small of a consist indicating such few passengers, do you think Congress is going to go for it? Was the train always that short while Amtrak operated the Pioneer?

As I recall pictures, it indeed was that short.

Train 26 ca. 1981

Talk about a rainbow consist! Is that an old Santa Fe highliner??

High-level you mean? Yes it is..

Pretty amazing. Thanks I knew it wasn't a superliner!

It was used as a parlor car that was open for all passengers (not just sleeping car pax) because of Amtrak's shortage of SSLs.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

Question..."the report assumes that the reintroduced Pioneer would operate daily, and would be comprised of a locomotive and four Superliner cars: Coach, Coach/Baggage, Sleeper, and Diner/Lounge." With that small of a consist indicating such few passengers, do you think Congress is going to go for it? Was the train always that short while Amtrak operated the Pioneer?

As I recall pictures, it indeed was that short.

Train 26 ca. 1981

Talk about a rainbow consist! Is that an old Santa Fe highliner??

High-level you mean? Yes it is..

Pretty amazing. Thanks I knew it wasn't a superliner!

It was used as a parlor car that was open for all passengers (not just sleeping car pax) because of Amtrak's shortage of SSLs.

Oh. I was thinking it was a coach. Doesn't seem like there would be 3 service cars on a 5 car train. I mean I guess maybe it was like that then, but it sure isn't that way now.

 

[bretton88]

Question..."the report assumes that the reintroduced Pioneer would operate daily, and would be comprised of a locomotive and four Superliner cars: Coach, Coach/Baggage, Sleeper, and Diner/Lounge." With that small of a consist indicating such few passengers, do you think Congress is going to go for it? Was the train always that short while Amtrak operated the Pioneer?

As I recall pictures, it indeed was that short.

Train 26 ca. 1981

Talk about a rainbow consist! Is that an old Santa Fe highliner??

High-level you mean? Yes it is..

Pretty amazing. Thanks I knew it wasn't a superliner!

It was used as a parlor car that was open for all passengers (not just sleeping car pax) because of Amtrak's shortage of SSLs.

Oh. I was thinking it was a coach. Doesn't seem like there would be 3 service cars on a 5 car train. I mean I guess maybe it was like that then, but it sure isn't that way now.

They threw whatever they could put on this train. If it needed 3 service cars (not always operated as a service car, I think the High-level was unstaffed, depending on what car it was replacing), then so be it. One good thing about re-instating service is that the days of rainbow consists will be over. Amtrak will finally make the consist uniform.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

It was used as a parlor car that was open for all passengers (not just sleeping car pax) because of Amtrak's shortage of SSLs.

Oh. I was thinking it was a coach. Doesn't seem like there would be 3 service cars on a 5 car train. I mean I guess maybe it was like that then, but it sure isn't that way now.

Yes its a coach... the Amfleet is a cafe. The Heritage car looks like a diner. The train had a diner and there were no diner-lites back then. So (to me) it looks like:

F40

Heritage Diner

Amfleet Cafe/lounge

High-level transition coach

Superliner (sleeper/coach)

Superliner (sleeper/coach)

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

They threw whatever they could put on this train. If it needed 3 service cars (not always operated as a service car, I think the High-level was unstaffed, depending on what car it was replacing), then so be it. One good thing about re-instating service is that the days of rainbow consists will be over. Amtrak will finally make the consist uniform.

Since when would this train "need" three service cars? It needed a coach.

Some high level coaches had transition vestibules.. like this one:

That is a 68 seat high-level coach with the transition end on the front.

 

[bretton88]

It was used as a parlor car that was open for all passengers (not just sleeping car pax) because of Amtrak's shortage of SSLs.

Oh. I was thinking it was a coach. Doesn't seem like there would be 3 service cars on a 5 car train. I mean I guess maybe it was like that then, but it sure isn't that way now.

Yes its a coach... the Amfleet is a cafe. The Heritage car looks like a diner. The train had a diner and there were no diner-lites back then. So (to me) it looks like:

F40

Heritage Diner

Amfleet Cafe/lounge

High-level transition coach

Superliner (sleeper/coach)

Superliner (sleeper/coach)

Good point. I forgot about the age of the photo. In the early 90s (when they where getting the superliner 2 cars), they took off the heritage diner and the amfleet and replaced it with a parlor car (High-level in place of the SSL) and a superliner diner. In the case of the photo, ALC is right. My fault for not noticing the age of the photo (and with the F40 and mix of single level and double level, its an inexcusable mistake!!).

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Good point. I forgot about the age of the photo. In the early 90s (when they where getting the superliner 2 cars), they took off the heritage diner and the amfleet and replaced it with a parlor car (High-level in place of the SSL) and a superliner diner. In the case of the photo, ALC is right. My fault for not noticing the age of the photo (and with the F40 and mix of single level and double level, its an inexcusable mistake!!).

The Pioneer ca. 1993 when they had all of the Superliners:

 

[acelafan]

Good point. I forgot about the age of the photo. In the early 90s (when they where getting the superliner 2 cars), they took off the heritage diner and the amfleet and replaced it with a parlor car (High-level in place of the SSL) and a superliner diner. In the case of the photo, ALC is right. My fault for not noticing the age of the photo (and with the F40 and mix of single level and double level, its an inexcusable mistake!!).

The Pioneer ca. 1993 when they had all of the Superliners:

Thanks for digging up the pics, my first thought is "what a cute little train!" Regardless of its length, I hope it gets reinstated. I think it would prove more popular than what the projected ridership shows...especially if gasoline were to become more expensive again (and it will at some point).

 

[bretton88]

I guess I misremembered what was on the train when I took it (now I feel bad for starting this whole discussion and sidetracking the discussion). That picture from 1993 is more what I remember taking. I really do hope that this service gets reinstated! The study seemed cautiously optimistic that it would be. Here's hoping for option 2! The beauty of this is that the route upgrades can be made while the new superliners are being ordered and built so it would be ready to go upon delivery if the trainsets! I think this train has a real chance of coming back!

 

[cpamtfan]

The car in the 1983 picture was a Heritage sleeper (possible after HEP was added). There was no diner service on this train, just crappy tray meals. It makes Diner Lite look great.

Bretton, I believe the old "Hi Level" car you were referring to was a diner convertided to suit both diner and lounge services 9although totally different than the current diner lounges). Also, no new Superliner, Viewliner lounges, or single level coaches are planned to be ordered over the next 5-10 years. The main priority right now is to get the new single level sleepers, diners, etc. and Midwest bi-levels on the property(even that is a few years away).

 

[acelafan]

Most or all of this equipment would have to be purchased new, at a projected cost of $141 million for Option 1 (Salt Lake City–Seattle), $123 million for

Option 2 (Denver–Seattle), and $138 million for Options 3 or 4 (Salt Lake City–

Portland or Denver–Portland).

Why are the costs $15 million lower for option 2 (Denver-Seattle) than option 4 (Denver-Portland)? :huh: Option 2 would go thru Portland! :blink:

They are only projecting having about 150 seats available per train? :huh:

It got me curious, too. Amtrak projects the annual ridership for option 2 at 111,000 while option 4 is 95,000. The "farebox recovery" for option 2 is 28.4% while option 4 is 20.6%. So it looks like having Seattle as a terminus would attract more riders than just Portland....probably makes sense to run it all the way to SEA?