Pioneer Study

[bretton88]

Most or all of this equipment would have to be purchased new, at a projected cost of $141 million for Option 1 (Salt Lake City–Seattle), $123 million for

Option 2 (Denver–Seattle), and $138 million for Options 3 or 4 (Salt Lake City–

Portland or Denver–Portland).

Why are the costs $15 million lower for option 2 (Denver-Seattle) than option 4 (Denver-Portland)? :huh: Option 2 would go thru Portland! :blink:

They are only projecting having about 150 seats available per train? :huh:

It got me curious, too. Amtrak projects the annual ridership for option 2 at 111,000 while option 4 is 95,000. The "farebox recovery" for option 2 is 28.4% while option 4 is 20.6%. So it looks like having Seattle as a terminus would attract more riders than just Portland....probably makes sense to run it all the way to SEA?

Its well known fact in the transportation industry (which I work in) that transfers kill ridership. Hence, we have here a logical assumption that a transfer to a cascades service to get to/from Seattle will result in less ridership, as the train becomes less convenient. I would definitely run to Seattle regardless of whether option 1 or 2 is chosen.

 

[Donctor]

Good point. I forgot about the age of the photo. In the early 90s (when they where getting the superliner 2 cars), they took off the heritage diner and the amfleet and replaced it with a parlor car (High-level in place of the SSL) and a superliner diner. In the case of the photo, ALC is right. My fault for not noticing the age of the photo (and with the F40 and mix of single level and double level, its an inexcusable mistake!!).

Actually, it's an incorrect point, as is yours. Why his point is wrong: the Heritage car is not a diner, but a 10R-6DB Sleeper. Why your point is wrong: according to an acquaintance who works for Amtrak, the removal of Amfleet and non-Hi-Level Heritage cars occurred in the 1980s, not the 1990s.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Good point. I forgot about the age of the photo. In the early 90s (when they where getting the superliner 2 cars), they took off the heritage diner and the amfleet and replaced it with a parlor car (High-level in place of the SSL) and a superliner diner. In the case of the photo, ALC is right. My fault for not noticing the age of the photo (and with the F40 and mix of single level and double level, its an inexcusable mistake!!).

Actually, it's an incorrect point, as is yours. Why his point is wrong: the Heritage car is not a diner, but a 10R-6DB Sleeper. Why your point is wrong: according to an acquaintance who works for Amtrak, the removal of Amfleet and non-Hi-Level Heritage cars occurred in the 1980s, not the 1990s.

Regardless the High-level is a 68 seat transition coach.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Good point. I forgot about the age of the photo. In the early 90s (when they where getting the superliner 2 cars), they took off the heritage diner and the amfleet and replaced it with a parlor car (High-level in place of the SSL) and a superliner diner. In the case of the photo, ALC is right. My fault for not noticing the age of the photo (and with the F40 and mix of single level and double level, its an inexcusable mistake!!).

Actually, it's an incorrect point, as is yours. Why his point is wrong: the Heritage car is not a diner, but a 10R-6DB Sleeper. Why your point is wrong: according to an acquaintance who works for Amtrak, the removal of Amfleet and non-Hi-Level Heritage cars occurred in the 1980s, not the 1990s.

Regardless the High-level is a 68 seat transition coach.

It looks like the train consisted of a Heritage sleeper, an Amfleet food service car, the hi-level transition car and two Superliner coaches.

 

[Donctor]

It looks like the train consisted of a Heritage sleeper, an Amfleet food service car, the hi-level transition car and two Superliner coaches.

It most certainly does.

 

[NativeSon5859]

The thing I don't like about all of these studies is that when word gets out to the local press in the cities along route, usually it makes it seem like the service will start in four months, not four years! I don't know if it's just bad reporting or if people actually expect expansions like this to happen sooner than later. Let's be honest...nothing happens very fast at Amtrak...especially anything related to route expansion.

I hope the Pioneer does get restored but I hope the folks pushing this to get done make it well known that it will be several years, at least, before the train takes to the tracks again.

 

[DET63]

The Pioneer was probably a short train because it was a part of The California Zephyr service (which also split off The Desert Wind to L.A. At one time, I believe all three services ran daily, but later there was some sort of alternate day service, with daily service only operating as far as Denver, where The Pioneer was cut off and sent through Wyoming to Portland and Seattle. I don't recall how the Oakland/San Francisco and Los Angeles services were divvied up.

My guess is that, unless Amtrak wants to invest in more Superliner equipment, which others have indicated is not in the works in the foreseeable future, a revival of either The Pioneer or The Desert Wind is unlikely. If the states of Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Nevada and California were willing (and able) to chip in to buy equipment, however, a more-or-less stand-alone service (i.e., not as part of the CZ) running from Portland (or even Seattle) to Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, and L.A. might be feasible. This would probably be run as one service between the Northwest and Salt Lake City, and another between Salt Lake, Vega$, and L.A. But the same vehicles could run all the way through, then be turned around at the other end.

 

[railiner]

weren't all the hi-level transition coaches converted into transition coach dorms by the time they were converted to HEP? Their coach capacity was reduced to only about 40 seats by then, all behind the stairway to the lower level. the transition end of the car had crew bunk rooms.

One thing I liked about the cars original all coach configuration, was there were a few single seats on each side of the transition end of the car. Really very comfortable and sort of semi-private for overnight travel. Wish I had a photo.

 

[railiner]

The Pioneer was probably a short train because it was a part of The California Zephyr service (which also split off The Desert Wind to L.A. At one time, I believe all three services ran daily, but later there was some sort of alternate day service, with daily service only operating as far as Denver, where The Pioneer was cut off and sent through Wyoming to Portland and Seattle. I don't recall how the Oakland/San Francisco and Los Angeles services were divvied up.
My guess is that, unless Amtrak wants to invest in more Superliner equipment, which others have indicated is not in the works in the foreseeable future, a revival of either The Pioneer or The Desert Wind is unlikely. If the states of Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Nevada and California were willing (and able) to chip in to buy equipment, however, a more-or-less stand-alone service (i.e., not as part of the CZ) running from Portland (or even Seattle) to Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, and L.A. might be feasible. This would probably be run as one service between the Northwest and Salt Lake City, and another between Salt Lake, Vega$, and L.A. But the same vehicles could run all the way through, then be turned around at the other end.

In the San Francisco Zephyr era, it ran CHI DEN CHY OGD OAK. The Rio Grande Zephyr ran DEN GJC SLC and briefly to OGD, but then cut back to SLC with a connecting bus to OGD for Amtrak connecting passengers.

Later on. the Pioneer started up as a SLC OGD PDX SEA service, with connections with the SFZ at OGD. Later still the Desert Wind started up as an OGD SLC LAX train.

In 1983, The SFZ and RGZ ended and the CZ started, CHI DEN GJC SLC OAK. Wyoming lost rail service. The CZ now ran with through cars from CHI to SLC for all three trains and split there. Later on the Pioneer split from the CZ at DEN and ran a 3 or 4 (I forgot), day a week service through Wyoming. Then when the budget axe fell, the Pioneer and Desert Wind ended.

 

[railiner]

Wait a minute, why didn't I read that link to the study before I tried to remember? All the correct data is in that study!

 

[bretton88]

All I know is that the study seemed to hint at a new superliner order coming at some point soon. It would be nice... I really want this train to be up and running again. If you combine it with the CZ to SLC you could have perhaps the most senic train in the system (though I'm still hoping for option 2)!

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

All I know is that the study seemed to hint at a new superliner order coming at some point soon. It would be nice... I really want this train to be up and running again. If you combine it with the CZ to SLC you could have perhaps the most senic train in the system (though I'm still hoping for option 2)!

If Superliner IIIs get ordered before Viewliner IIs... there will be hell to pay East of Chicago!

 

[AlanB]

All I know is that the study seemed to hint at a new superliner order coming at some point soon. It would be nice... I really want this train to be up and running again. If you combine it with the CZ to SLC you could have perhaps the most senic train in the system (though I'm still hoping for option 2)!

If Superliner IIIs get ordered before Viewliner IIs... there will be hell to pay East of Chicago!

That won't be happening.

Amtrak already has the plans and a Request For Proposal out on the Viewliner's. They will be first, unles Congress pulls the funding.

At best, Superliner III's are at least 2 to 3 years, and probably more, away from having a RFP issued. And that assumes that Congress continues to fund Amtrak at a level that would allow them to place such an order.

 

[bretton88]

I'm just surprised that Amtrak can't put out an RFP for more superliners, say next year after they accept bids for the viewliners. In that way, they can get the viewliners ordered and in production while getting the ball rolling on new superliners. But, I guess that would be asking too much of Amtrak.

 

[wayman]

I'm just surprised that Amtrak can't put out an RFP for more superliners, say next year after they accept bids for the viewliners. In that way, they can get the viewliners ordered and in production while getting the ball rolling on new superliners. But, I guess that would be asking too much of Amtrak.

Amtrak can't put out an RFP for something not included in an appropriations bill. Congress needs to authorize funding for Superliners before Amtrak can put out an RFP.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I'm just surprised that Amtrak can't put out an RFP for more superliners, say next year after they accept bids for the viewliners. In that way, they can get the viewliners ordered and in production while getting the ball rolling on new superliners. But, I guess that would be asking too much of Amtrak.

Amtrak can't put out an RFP for something not included in an appropriations bill. Congress needs to authorize funding for Superliners before Amtrak can put out an RFP.

And if they tried to sneak it into the appropriations bill Congress would accuse them of being greedy.

 

[DET63]

Since it all comes down to Congress, what is your Congressperson's voting record and stated positions (not necessarily the same thing) when it comes to Amtrak?

(This is addressed to everyone who posts here.)

 

[bretton88]

I'm just surprised that Amtrak can't put out an RFP for more superliners, say next year after they accept bids for the viewliners. In that way, they can get the viewliners ordered and in production while getting the ball rolling on new superliners. But, I guess that would be asking too much of Amtrak.

Amtrak can't put out an RFP for something not included in an appropriations bill. Congress needs to authorize funding for Superliners before Amtrak can put out an RFP.

And if they tried to sneak it into the appropriations bill Congress would accuse them of being greedy.

Or more likely, what will happen (this is typical power politics, I'm not saying it is right) is that a coalition of all these state senators crying for more amtrak service (SSL east, North Coast Hiawatha, and the Pioneer, etc...) will authorize funding for new superliners on the condition that all their routes get restored. That wouldn't surprise me one bit. Now, amtrak may not like that, but politics is politics...

 

[Superliner]

I would definitely like to see The Pioneer restored. Many roundtrips were taken on this train from Iowa to Oregon. Lots of memories! Back then, it split from the CZ in SLC. The consist was usually 4 Superliners and one F40. F40--Diner/Lounge--Coach--Coach/Baggage--Sleeper. During peak travel periods a third coach was included. The CZ was rather lengthy back in the day and it would have to "spot" a couple of times at stations with shorter platforms. Cars at the front of the CZ were #5's, followed by #25's and the end #35's. I seem to remember the thru-cars on the CZ including a second Dining Car from Chi-Den that was part of the Pioneer's consist after it's route change. I never had the opportunity to ride The Pioneer through WY.

 

[bretton88]

What I liked about this study is that it seemed cautiously optimistic that the train would run again. So, I hold out good hope.

 

[delvyrails]

Politically, what are needed to buy more Superliners and foot other capital costs are more new services in more states. Unfortunately, service proposals and support for new routes seem to be largely found in low-population areas with few transportation alternatives which don't send many members to the House of Representatives.

LD proponents need to agree on and support a few well-thought-out route proposals linking larger population areas and states which DO have transportation alternatives. There are several important missing links and missing routes in the Amtrak national network. They cover areas which send hundreds of politiicians to Congress.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

It was used as a parlor car that was open for all passengers (not just sleeping car pax) because of Amtrak's shortage of SSLs.

Oh. I was thinking it was a coach. Doesn't seem like there would be 3 service cars on a 5 car train. I mean I guess maybe it was like that then, but it sure isn't that way now.

Yes its a coach... the Amfleet is a cafe. The Heritage car looks like a diner. The train had a diner and there were no diner-lites back then. So (to me) it looks like:

F40

Heritage Diner

Amfleet Cafe/lounge

High-level transition coach

Superliner (sleeper/coach)

Superliner (sleeper/coach)

Good point. I forgot about the age of the photo. In the early 90s (when they where getting the superliner 2 cars), they took off the heritage diner and the amfleet and replaced it with a parlor car (High-level in place of the SSL) and a superliner diner. In the case of the photo, ALC is right. My fault for not noticing the age of the photo (and with the F40 and mix of single level and double level, its an inexcusable mistake!!).

Jsut a note about the word "parlor car". I think you meant lounge car or high level lounge.

A true parlor car was a pre Amtrak creation that would resemble custom class or business class today. It was revenue space, that is something you bought a ticket for, not something you visited like a lounge. They ran all over the country sort of, but mostly in the northeast. They often had swivel seats, some had two long rows of swivel single seats.

Parlor cars were meant to be a more luxurious day accommodation than a coach. But as coaches became more and more comfortable through the long preAmtrak years parlor cars became sort of redundant.

What you are thinking of is the term Pacific Parlour Car' but that is a distinctive word usage Amtrak thought of for that one specialized fancy lounge car on the Coast Starlight. Amtrak does not use the term anywhere else.