Policy change for loophole trips?

[ALC Rail Writer]

Is ALC_Rail_Writer the last to do the KWD(KCY)-CBS LH? Did anyone make a LH reservation and not yet pickup tickets? What will AGR/Amtrak do in that situation? (I expect them to honor the rezzie)

Last one to book, but not take. My source assured me that anyone who booked before the change, like the traveller, will be grandfathered in... In other words they aren't going to go back and change existing rezzies.

 

[JayPea]

I just booked a Walnut Ridge-Seattle AGR trip a little while ago and when I requested the routing by way of the Texas Eagle to Los Angeles and the Coast Starlight from Los Angeles to Seattle, Jake, the very nice and personable (and knowledgeable) AGR agent said he'd have to check first as they use a "default" routing and it might cost more points to go another way. This was a straight 2-zone award that didn't involve crossing into a third zone, so I didn't see how I could get charged more points. It turned out fine as this is a legitimate routing, but it did make me wonder now about their policy. I'm taking the Eagle coach from Bloomington, IL to Walnut Ridge, and the only other routing I saw involved the Eagle from Walnut Ridge back to Springfield, a bus to Galesburg, the Zephyr to Sacramento and the Starlight to Seattle. That of course made no sense whatsoever for my trip. Thank goodness Jake decided the Walnut Ridge-Los Angeles-Seattle option was legitimate.

 

[Bigval109]

Is ALC_Rail_Writer the last to do the KWD(KCY)-CBS LH? Did anyone make a LH reservation and not yet pickup tickets? What will AGR/Amtrak do in that situation? (I expect them to honor the rezzie)

Last one to book, but not take. My source assured me that anyone who booked before the change, like the traveller, will be grandfathered in... In other words they aren't going to go back and change existing rezzies.

That good to know because I booked the lax to alt trip and I'm going for the ride. I'm going all the way down to alt and then use my purchased ticket from alt to rvr to end my vacation. Oh triple points. For me it will be 2 extra days vacation. Perhaps we should leave the loophole topic alone for a while and let things cool down. Perhaps when the dust settles it may not be as bad as we thought. :huh:

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The thing is they know ALL of the loopholes. They do, not talking about them changes nothing. The fact is AGR has to answer to its consciousness... after all, there are people who need to go from Omaha to Wolf Point, Atlanta to Los Angeles, and its not their fault there's no direct link or that they cross zone borders that, at times, seem arbitrarily placed.

I expect to see more stringent guidelines on ALL of these trips in the coming months-- AGR (more importantly, Amtrak) has to decide where to draw (or re-draw) the line.

 

[GoldenSpike]

Is ALC_Rail_Writer the last to do the KWD(KCY)-CBS LH? Did anyone make a LH reservation and not yet pickup tickets? What will AGR/Amtrak do in that situation? (I expect them to honor the rezzie)

It appears they will honor it. I made my KCY-CBS resv a month ago for August and have not picked my tickets up.

After this thread started I checked my account. So far it is a 20k trip.

 

[The Metropolitan]

The fact is AGR has to answer to its consciousness... after all, there are people who need to go from Omaha to Wolf Point, Atlanta to Los Angeles, and its not their fault there's no direct link or that they cross zone borders that, at times, seem arbitrarily placed.

A little (ok, perhaps very) overinflated in my opinion. The fine folks of Wolf Point (pop. 2663) have largely had the AGR world as their oyster for the past several years in that they could go to some 300 or so of Amtrak's 500 destinations for only a single zone redemption, and even a number more if using the more sketchy tactics of throwaway reward tickets. The same has been true for the fine folks of Denver, Albuquerque, Lamy, Trinidad, Atlanta, and Toledo. These same fine folks in these areas, by reason of their geographic placement also had the advantage of NEVER having to do any more than a 2 zone redemption to reach anywhere in the Amtrak service area.

So what's the solution to AGR inequities?

Good question that raises many others. Should sleeper or coach redemptions be pro-rated based on distance, cost, or travel time? That might get pretty complicated to the average user who won't know if their 24232 points are good for that Washington-Minneapolis redemption on the Cardinal versus the Capitol. Even segementing them into 24 hour blocks might be annoying to that Tampa-New York Penn patron whose redemption on the Star is only good up to Baltimore, at which point they get dumped out with the room unsellable for the final segment anyway. Should the rider going from St. Louis to Los Angeles be rewarded for a potentially more inconvenient trip up to Chicago to get the SWC instead of the more leisurely TE since this saves a day?

 

[transit54]

Man, I cashed in all my AGR points a while back for SDL-EMY via WAS & CHI. I'm counting the days till I leave late next month. Glad I did it when I did. While I'm sorry to see loopholes go, most of my future redemptions will be for non-loophole trips. I just don't always have the time to ride the train in loops around the country, as much fun as it may be.

There's got to be a better system for redemptions than zones. The inequities of it were always (in my mind) balanced by the potential of loophole trips. If we're discussing the potential revenue loss to Amtrak, there should be controls based on the peak/off peak nature of many of Amtrak's routes. I should be able to get more value for my points during off peak times, and it should probably be more accurately pegged to days on the train or distance traveled.

With these changes, I'd really like to see an overhaul of redemptions. Something that's equitable for both us and Amtrak.

 

[Ispolkom]

With these changes, I'd really like to see an overhaul of redemptions. Something that's equitable for both us and Amtrak.

Such a beast doesn't exist. What's equitable for you certainly isn't for me.

In any case, I have yet to see any evidence that anything has changed, except perhaps for the Kansas City - Columbus trip.

On the same day that Mister Toad had his problems booking his Kansas City - Columbus trip, April 1, I booked a Minot-Chicago-Washington-Slidell trip. Not quite as circular a trip as Mr. Toad's but one that:

a) went into a second zone,

b) had a more direct variant (Minot-Chicago-New Orleans), and

c) was booked as a one-zone award for 20k points (with the standard 2k Chase rebate).

oh, and

d) had a terminus in a notorious AGR award city.

If there is some big new set of rules, why did I not have any problems?

Is there any evidence, not extrapolation, not assumption, not things heard from "sources" but actual data from actual attempts to book AGR award trips that anything has changed, except on that one particularly long, particularly circuitous route?

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

So in quick summary would the Kansas City-Columbus "loophole" now be a 2 Zone Reward?

 

[Bob Dylan]

So in quick summary would the Kansas City-Columbus "loophole" now be a 2 Zone Reward?

Unfortunately yes! Its worse than Jefferson Lines canceling out for the KCY-OKC run so I missed the Heartland Flyer and had to ride a dog all the way from KCY to Austin! :angry: But there's still a few good deals for one zone awards and this one is not bad as a two zone as others have said! Whats the latest on the extension of the Flyer to Kansas? Jim

 

[J-1 3235]

So in quick summary would the Kansas City-Columbus "loophole" now be a 2 Zone Reward?

I just ended a call to AGR; I was trying to book the KCY to CBS trip next February. I was told it is now a THREE zone trip. I asked the agent to double check, he assured me it was a three zone now. I questioned when did this change; that I had recently read (on our forum, of course) that this reward had become a two zone. He was unable to give me any specifics, just that it's now three zones.

I realize the usual advice applies; call back and get a different answer

I'm sure I'll be in a better mood tomorrow, maybe I'll try again!

Mike

 

[The Metropolitan]

I guess that makes some sense as you travel twice (separately) in the central zone and once in the western zone.

Seems like Trinidad to Wolf Point will probably be the most potentially lucrative redemption left for the value/time hawks.

 

[Rail Freak]

So in quick summary would the Kansas City-Columbus "loophole" now be a 2 Zone Reward?

I just ended a call to AGR; I was trying to book the KCY to CBS trip next February. I was told it is now a THREE zone trip. I asked the agent to double check, he assured me it was a three zone now. I questioned when did this change; that I had recently read (on our forum, of course) that this reward had become a two zone. He was unable to give me any specifics, just that it's now three zones.

I realize the usual advice applies; call back and get a different answer

I'm sure I'll be in a better mood tomorrow, maybe I'll try again!

Mike

The agent may have been thinking " Cross a zone line, add another zone charge"!

EX. - KCY-DEN = 1 zone

DEN - WPT = 1 zone

WPT - CBS = 1 zone

????

RF

 

[rtabern]

Just wanted to confirm that the KCY-CBS loophole is DEAD... I tried to book the trip for February/March 2011. At first the AGR folks told me it was 30,000 points for a bedroom (2 zones)... then they called me back about 5 minutes later and told me it was 50,000 points for a bedroom (3 zones). They deducated 50,000 points right away. I decided to keep the reservation despite the lack of a loophole... I guess still not a bad deal... 50,000 points for 6 days and 5 nights in the deluxe bedroom.

 

[RRrich]

Just wanted to confirm that the KCY-CBS loophole is DEAD... I tried to book the trip for February/March 2011. At first the AGR folks told me it was 30,000 points for a bedroom (2 zones)... then they called me back about 5 minutes later and told me it was 50,000 points for a bedroom (3 zones). They deducated 50,000 points right away. I decided to keep the reservation despite the lack of a loophole... I guess still not a bad deal... 50,000 points for 6 days and 5 nights in the deluxe bedroom.

Its a WONDERFUL trip - ENJOY

 

[ceblack]

Wow... so would a Slidell to Seattle trip now be FOUR zones? How much do they charge for that?

The AGR site says that rewards are determined by the number of zones you travel across. a KCY-CBS trip travels across two zones (Western Region, Central Region). I don't think they should be "double-counting" a zone. Otherwise a trip from Cleveland, Ohio to Port Huron, Michigan becomes a three zone trip.

I don't mind AGR eliminating "loopholes" by no longer just looking at start and end points of a trip to determine number of zones, but I think they are going a step too far in counting a zone more than once just because travel across it is non-continuous. It seems to me they've gone from an interpretation that is too favorable for AGR members ("loopholes") to one that is too injurious to AGR members ("double-counting"). Of course, the terms and conditions state that any interpretation is theirs to make... and that they can change the terms and conditions at any time... so perhaps we just have to live with what they decide.

Still, I'd be tempted to call AGR back and ask why you were getting charged twice for travelling in the Central Region.

~~Coherent, semi-reasonable argument ends here, pointless "fight the power" rant continues below~~

Here's an experiment I'll leave to someone with more skill in/appetite for confrontation (and more available travel time): Call AGR and ask to book a deluxe bedroom award trip from Seattle to Miami. When they say they are going to charge you 50,000 points for the trip, beg to differ and say it should be a one-zone award for 20,000 points. If they object, tell them you looked at the rewards map and the only ZONE you travel through is the Northeast Zone. The others are all REGIONs. Since awards are based on the number of zones you travel across (emphasis theirs!), this should be a one-zone award. Yeah, you probably wouldn't get anywhere what with the whole "they make the rules, they interpret the rules, and they can change the rules whenever they want" thing, but maybe if you protest loud and long enough and demand to talk to enough supervisors and threaten legal action for false advertising... maybe they'd figure it's easier to just give you the one-zone award and then go back to correct the zone map (or the reward terminology to reflect regions).

 

[Guest]

Just wanted to confirm that the KCY-CBS loophole is DEAD... I tried to book the trip for February/March 2011. At first the AGR folks told me it was 30,000 points for a bedroom (2 zones)... then they called me back about 5 minutes later and told me it was 50,000 points for a bedroom (3 zones). They deducated 50,000 points right away. I decided to keep the reservation despite the lack of a loophole... I guess still not a bad deal... 50,000 points for 6 days and 5 nights in the deluxe bedroom.

3 zones, proof that AGR is still tripping over itself with this thing.

Now if EVERYONE stopped calling for like six months they might forget that they have something to trip over. There is always one that reminds them that they have something to trip over.

 

[AlanB]

Just wanted to confirm that the KCY-CBS loophole is DEAD... I tried to book the trip for February/March 2011. At first the AGR folks told me it was 30,000 points for a bedroom (2 zones)... then they called me back about 5 minutes later and told me it was 50,000 points for a bedroom (3 zones). They deducated 50,000 points right away. I decided to keep the reservation despite the lack of a loophole... I guess still not a bad deal... 50,000 points for 6 days and 5 nights in the deluxe bedroom.

3 zones, proof that AGR is still tripping over itself with this thing.

Now if EVERYONE stopped calling for like six months they might forget that they have something to trip over. There is always one that reminds them that they have something to trip over.

Calling AGR or not will not change anything. This change is permanent and it had nothing to do with people calling up and asking for awards.

 

[Ispolkom]

Calling AGR or not will not change anything. This change is permanent and it had nothing to do with people calling up and asking for awards.

I'm sure you're correct. It's still a bit of a shame that we don't know quite what the change is, when it went into effect, and whether it applies to all circuitous routings that cross zone boundaries.

But that's only fair. It wasn't as though the original policy that allowed such routings was ever spelled out to AGR members, if such a policy ever officially existed. After all, in January 2009 several AGR agents insisted that Atlanta-Washington-Chicago-Minot was a two-zone trip, while in April 2010, this very month, another clerk booked me Minot-Chicago-Washington-Slidell as a one-zone trip without any prompting on my part. If you want hard and fast rules, AGR surely isn't for you.

Me, I live in hope. When I'm once again in the market for long-distance AGR awards (sometime next year, I imagine) I expect that the picture will be rosier than it seems to some today, at least for those of us booking trips in flyover country. If not, it's no secret that all frequent-traveler programs reserve the right to change terms and conditions at any time, for any reason. AGR's secret charm is that it does this without actually bothering to let its customers know that anything has changed.

It's an odd way to run a railroad, but I find it entertaining.

 

[ceblack]

Pointless Question of the Day:

How many AGR zones is a trip on the Southwest Chief from Albuquerque, NM to Trinidad, CO?

a. One.

b. Two.

c. None... you're riding the zone boundary the whole way!!

d. It depends on how many times you switch between sides of the train. ("I'm sorry, I can't sit on that side of the dining car or it will cost me another 10,000 AGR points.")

 

[saxman]

Pointless Question of the Day:
How many AGR zones is a trip on the Southwest Chief from Albuquerque, NM to Trinidad, CO?

a. One.

b. Two.

c. None... you're riding the zone boundary the whole way!!

d. It depends on how many times you switch between sides of the train. ("I'm sorry, I can't sit on that side of the dining car or it will cost me another 10,000 AGR points.")

e. All the above. It just depends which AGR agent you get on the phone!

 

[Ryan]

f. It depends on which track the dispatcher routes you on (I'm assuming that parts of the route are double tracked).

 

[RRrich]

g. It doesn't really matter - if you don't like what the agent says hang up and call again until you get an answer you like

 

[manderson]

Calling AGR or not will not change anything. This change is permanent and it had nothing to do with people calling up and asking for awards.

Alan, you're a patient man.

(loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole)