Possible revival of the Boston North-South Rail Link Project

[Tlcooper44]

What a difference 30 years makes! Today requiring DEMU would be a non-issue since scads of them are available off the shelf. It was very different in the '80s. Heck US didn;t even have an off the shelf DMU available, let alone a DEMU or EDMU;

I suppose it might have been an issue if the project had gotten that far, but I was under the impression that the tunnel was vetoed for the sake it was a rail tunnel and that they did not want to fund rail infrastructure. If I’m wrong, let me know.

 

[jis]

I suppose it might have been an issue if the project had gotten that far, but I was under the impression that the tunnel was vetoed for the sake it was a rail tunnel and that they did not want to fund rail infrastructure. If I’m wrong, let me know.

I have no idea what happened back then I was barely involved in rail advocacy, just having joined NARP a few years before that. President Raegan was bit of a disaster for passenger railroad and specifically Amtrak specially in the Stockman era IIRC.

 

[Tlcooper44]

I have no idea what happened back then I was barely involved in rail advocacy, just having joined NARP a few years before that. President Raegan was bit of a disaster for passenger railroad and specifically Amtrak specially in the Stockman era IIRC.

I see.

At this point, if even the biggest rail advocates in Boston have trouble universally backing a N-S connector, there is NO way its gonna fly with general public, who already have a massive mistrust of anything transportation related in Boston.

We're already spending the big bucks on the Allston interchange. Lets spend small to medium bucks on electrification and EMU procurement.

 

[jis]

At this point, if even the biggest rail advocates in Boston have trouble universally backing a N-S connector, there is NO way its gonna fly with general public, who already have a massive mistrust of anything transportation related in Boston.

RPA incidentally, does actively support the N-S Rail Link. It has an active working group on the subject, and is on board with this attempt to get things moving again.

 

[Tlcooper44]

RPA incidentally, does actively support the N-S Rail Link. It has an active working group on the subject, and is on board with this attempt to get things moving again.

Yeah, I saw that. Transitmatters also supports the link.

I think that in a broad sense, with money, and the currency of political will being no object, I support it too.
Unfortunately, both of those things are in short supply.
If your average rail-friendly person has trouble completely backing it, how much more will the average person who knows nothing have trouble getting behind it.

 

[railiner]

It was very different in the '80s. Heck US didn;t even have an off the shelf DMU available, let alone a DEMU or EDMU;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000

 

[jis]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000

Yes. Though they were so unreliable that often they were unusable.

My big complaint with the ones I rode on MNRR is that they reeked of diesel exhaust inside. They also shook like a Whale in heat when accelerating

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Stupid question maybe, but wouldn't a rail tunnel be better (maybe I haven't dug deep enough into the proposals) be better if it ran beyond North Station to a point further north (obviously electrified) to avoid bridges and harbors, etc? It it was for commuter rail and only occasional Amtrak use then a lot of stations could be added. Perhaps even starting south of South Station as well? Obviously that's a crazy big long-term project idea.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Stupid question maybe, but wouldn't a rail tunnel be better (maybe I haven't dug deep enough into the proposals) be better if it ran beyond North Station to a point further north (obviously electrified) to avoid bridges and harbors, etc? It it was for commuter rail and only occasional Amtrak use then a lot of stations could be added. Perhaps even starting south of South Station as well? Obviously that's a crazy big long-term project idea.

The most recent proposal I read had the tunnel running from beyond the Charles River to just before Back* Bay station (southbound).

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

The most recent proposal I read had the tunnel running from beyond the Charles River to just before Bay Bay station (southbound).

Where's Bay Bay station? The Bay (the Canadian Store, from Hudsons Bay)? Hudsons Bay? Probably near Bank Banque Banc....



(Sorry, I couldn't resist)

 

[MARC Rider]

As far diesel or electric in the north-south tunnel my understanding was that stopping at a station underground and embarking and disembarking passengers with diesel fumes is the problem. Keep in mind these stations will be far underground. Also EMU's can climb at steeper grades than diesel trains thus shorting the tunnel which brings down costs. So rail electrification or duel mode engines were always required for the north-south tunnel. This was the reason the Dukakis administration dropped the North-South tunnel option from the Big Dig.

I think that maybe with Tier IV diesels, exhaust emissions aren't the problem they used to be.

BTW, MARC runs diesels through the Baltimore tunnels with no problems, doing this many times a day. And they were doing it 20 years ago when diesel fumes were a lot worse than they are now.

 

[George Harris]

As far diesel or electric in the north-south tunnel my understanding was that stopping at a station underground and embarking and disembarking passengers with diesel fumes is the problem. Keep in mind these stations will be far underground. Also EMU's can climb at steeper grades than diesel trains thus shorting the tunnel which brings down costs. So rail electrification or duel mode engines were always required for the north-south tunnel. This was the reason the Dukakis administration dropped the North-South tunnel option from the Big Dig.

Diesel trains in underground stations is done in other parts of the world. Good example: Taipei Main Station. At the time we were there the East Coast Line was diesel operated (it has since been electrified) and their top trains were 12 car DMU's. Secondary trains were diesel engine hauled. Yes, you could smell diesel smoke particularly with the DMU trains as they accelerated out of the station, but it was cleared out fairly promptly. It is a design issue, not a go / no go issue. Again, there is no real issue with grades between the two types if both are MU. Likewise, for locomotive powered trains there would also be no issue, other than it it desirable to have lower maximum grades with locomotive hauled trains due to a lower percentage of powered axles. The reasons given in this realm for dropping the tunnel option were excuses only.

 

[Fenway]

It SHOULD have been done as part of the Big Dig but Tip O'Neill never saw any merit to it.

Electrification of MBTA CR has to be taken in baby steps starting with procuring hybrid equipment for the Providence/Stoughton line and then exploring other lines that could be electrified.

But the bigger problem is trying to predict commuter traffic as the 21st Century evolves. The Seaport, Boston Landing and Assembly Row didn't exist 20 years ago and now they are thriving.

I was flabbergasted when the T released the fare entry stats of the 63 gated stations for October

Harvard (Red Line) was the busiest station out of 63 in October 2022.
South Station (Red Line, Silver Line) was the 2nd busiest station out of 63 in October 2022.
North Station (Green Line, Orange Line) was the 3rd busiest station out of 63 in October 2022.
Riverside (Green Line) was the 63rd busiest station out of 63 in October 2022.

North and South Stations need to have a direct connection.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Electrification of MBTA CR has to be taken in baby steps starting with procuring hybrid equipment for the Providence/Stoughton line and then exploring other lines that could be electrified.

I'm not sure why you say this has to be the case; I disagree.
I understand that you can't do something like this overnight, but I really don't understand why it can't be done in 5 years.
Furthermore, if its going to happen in the first place, it should be done right. Hybrid/battery options are unfavorable to overhead 90% of the time.

Worcester, Fitchburg, Rockport/Newburyport, Lowell, Haverhill, and South Coast Rail should all receive overhead. Needham Line should really just be an extension of the Orange Line, and Fairmont should probably resemble some form of rapid transit rather than commuter rail or even regional rail model. EMU's can achieve that (even DMU's can get the job done).

 

[BlackDiamond]

Worcester, Fitchburg, Rockport/Newburyport, Lowell, Haverhill, and South Coast Rail should all receive overhead. Needham Line should really just be an extension of the Orange Line, and Fairmont should probably resemble some form of rapid transit rather than commuter rail or even regional rail model. EMU's can achieve that (even DMU's can get the job done).

I agree with that list except for South Coast, I doubt if that will ever have the ridership to justify electrification, nor would any of the former Old Colony lines. Rockport/Newburyport at least as far as Beverly to start with more frequent service for that portion of the line.

I have heard talk of making the Fairmount a branch of the Red Line although that would probably result in too much congestion in the downtown and Cambridge tunnels with now 3 branches running through it. The Needham line conversion to heavy rail might be tough as I'm not sure the right of way can handle a second track.

 

[Fenway]

I'm not sure why you say this has to be the case; I disagree.
I understand that you can't do something like this overnight, but I really don't understand why it can't be done in 5 years.
Furthermore, if its going to happen in the first place, it should be done right. Hybrid/battery options are unfavorable to overhead 90% of the time.

Worcester, Fitchburg, Rockport/Newburyport, Lowell, Haverhill, and South Coast Rail should all receive overhead. Needham Line should really just be an extension of the Orange Line, and Fairmont should probably resemble some form of rapid transit rather than commuter rail or even regional rail model. EMU's can achieve that (even DMU's can get the job done).

The NIMBY's will fight overhead - good luck getting it approved in Concord near Walden Pond on the Fitchburg line.

 

[Tlcooper44]

The NIMBY's will fight overhead - good luck getting it approved in Concord near Walden Pond on the Fitchburg line.

funny, I grew up right there, and know nearly every person who lives in that immediate area.

I disagree with your assumption about them. Especially if it means quieter trains overall.

 

[jis]

It should also be remembered that just because there are NIBYs does not mean all projects should abandoned out of the gate. NIMBYs actually lose quite often too. Witness Brightline in Florida.

 

[MARC Rider]

The NIMBY's will fight overhead - good luck getting it approved in Concord near Walden Pond on the Fitchburg line.

Why should NIMBY's be all in a tizzy about overhead wire? The Baltimore Light Rail runs through some pretty fancy areas, and no one made a stink about that, and the overhead wires don't really make much of a difference in the viewshed, either. There was one station that was abandoned because of NIMBY concern about "loot rail," i.e., riff raff from the inner city riding up to rob all those fancy houses, which is silly, because, (1) a lot of the riff raff have cars, anyway, and don't need a light rail to come to the neighborhood, and (2) most robberies happen in the middle of the night, when the light rail isn't running.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I know there have been fights against electrification - iirc, CalTrain was one of them and there were objections in the UK on some historic bridges. Of course, Boston's 70's subway extension plans were written up as case history of NIMBY objections (and don't get me started on mindless YIMBYism...) in urban planning books. But I don't see why electrification would/should do that - unless more trains brings out fear of more development - which is pushed by some - and more crime. But generally more frequent, faster and quieter trains would be welcomed, especially in a more environmentally conscious part of the country.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Why should NIMBY's be all in a tizzy about overhead wire? The Baltimore Light Rail runs through some pretty fancy areas, and no one made a stink about that, and the overhead wires don't really make much of a difference in the viewshed, either. There was one station that was abandoned because of NIMBY concern about "loot rail," i.e., riff raff from the inner city riding up to rob all those fancy houses, which is silly, because, (1) a lot of the riff raff have cars, anyway, and don't need a light rail to come to the neighborhood, and (2) most robberies happen in the middle of the night, when the light rail isn't running.

Burglaries, however, happen during daytime hours since that's when people are out (spoken from knowledge as victim of burglary - in the inner city, however).

 

[Tlcooper44]

I know there have been fights against electrification - iirc, CalTrain was one of them and there were objections in the UK on some historic bridges. Of course, Boston's 70's subway extension plans were written up as case history of NIMBY objections (and don't get me started on mindless YIMBYism...) in urban planning books. But I don't see why electrification would/should do that - unless more trains brings out fear of more development - which is pushed by some - and more crime. But generally more frequent, faster and quieter trains would be welcomed, especially in a more environmentally conscious part of the country.

Moreover, the area in question (Walden Pond, and the couple miles between Lincoln and Concord) is extremely forested. Very few people live within house view of the tracks. I could and still can hear the the rumbling of diesels and the rattling of Comet cars twice an hour as trains go by, as far as miles away.

There will be no issues with NIMBY's for electrification in this area beyond a few environmental review things because of Walden park. Given that you're replacing diesel trains with electric ones though, its hard to argue against it.
In general, much the Fitchburg line is very removed.

 

[Rambling Robert]

I moved to Massachusetts when Mike Dukakis was governor the first time (1975 - 1979). He’s continuing stated that the MBTA has a big hole in it. Mike it’s not a hole - it’s a hub: the hub of the universe!!!

haha. What ever happened to calling Boston “The Hub of the Universe”?

But I’m not NIMBY BUT - the Rockport line was using busses for a YEAR and a half to build a new bridge THEN more busses during speed control installation and busses
,.. more stuff. But unless electrication was of the electrical overhead can be constructed without disrupting rail service - I think Rockport should get a pass for a while.

As far as north south connectivity - did you know that you can walk from the .Red line platform directly to and from the Orange line platform???

So from BOS to BON all you need is the Orange line.
Another quote that Dukakis made into an official Massachusetts bumper sticker - that would fit for all NIMBY folk: “A Little Courtesy Won’t Kill You”. Didn’t he retract it?

 

[BlackDiamond]

So from BOS to BON all you need is the Orange line.

Actually from BBY to BON. OK going northbound, if you are heading southbound on a Regional you miss the opportunity to get a good seat as you would by boarding at BOS. Also not great if you are shlepping lots of luggage. If I have the time and not much luggage I generally take the green or orange then red line to go to BOS for that reason and because BOS is a much nicer place to wait than the BBY dungeon.

However I don't think the NSRL is justified by the handful of Amtrak passengers transferring from Downeaster to NEC (or to commuter rail). It is more to provide connectivity between towns on the north and south sides plus the benefits of having trains run through instead of laying over which improves their productivity.

 

[MisterUptempo]

They also shook like a Whale in heat when accelerating

You make that sound like a bad thing...