Power "off and on" on Empire Builder

[Giftbox28]

My wife and I are riding the EB west from Chicago. We left yesterday. Around 10:30 last night we stopped and power was off 2 different times each about 10-15 minutes. We’re in the last sleeper car on the end. Seems like they did an engine change. Is this normal?

 

[Triley]

You all are running on time, so there's no way you have a freight engine, and there's no spare Amtrak engines sitting out around Minneapolis. It's possible they were resetting the engine(s) if there were computer problems, but even then...you've been so on time that it doesn't seem like there been enough of a delay to even have those issues.

Weird! Anyway, you have an absolutely amazing crew on that train, and I hope you have a good rest of your trip!

 

[TinCan782]

It happens during stops from time-to-time; not just the Empire Builder.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

The Genesis has a protection system , if a 480 volt jumper in train is loose or defective , once train speed gets below 10 mph the power drops out , so a person trying to correct the jumper issue won't get zapped

 

[niemi24s]

Did it ever occur to you to ask the on-board about it?

 

[tim49424]

Did it ever occur to you to ask the on-board about it?

It’s his first post and maybe his first experience on Amtrak. If that’s the case, no, it’s highly unlikely it occurred to him.



Welcome to the board Giftbox28!

 

[tim49424]

[QUOTE="Triley, post: 915071, member: 2509"

Anyway, you have an absolutely amazing crew on that train, and I hope you have a good rest of your trip!
[/QUOTE]

I was going to ask who the crew is, but in my opinion it doesn’t matter, they’re all amazing on the Builder…..especially the ones out of CHI and SCD, but I can’t be objective in that case. I know so many in those bases.

 

[west point]

If a non HEP producing loco fuel quantity gets higher than one producing HEP the engineer might switch locos providing power. To do this loco producing power is shut off and then other loco is then set to provide power. Engineer has to physically climb into loco to change HEP from off to on to off. I have seen this twice in Orlando when track ahead was blocked for 2 - 3 hours to keep one of the locos from running out of fuel.

A loco providing HEP is using quite a bit of fuel providing HEP as it is running at 900(?) RPM instead of idle when stopped at station or out on road.. Your case a long station stop may have caused engineer to shut off lead HEP and go to second engine for HEP. . Then before leaving station may have switched back to lead loco. That way engineer can monitor HEP where as cannot if another loco is running HEP.

Has anyone ever noticed this when a long delay is happening out on the road ?

NOTE: Only know this for P-42s. The new ALCs since they do not need the high RPMs for HEP may be different ?

 

[jis]

A loco providing HEP is using quite a bit of fuel providing HEP as it is running at 900(?) RPM instead of idle when stopped at station or out on road.. Your case a long station stop may have caused engineer to shut off lead HEP and go to second engine for HEP. . Then before leaving station may have switched back to lead loco. That way engineer can monitor HEP where as cannot if another loco is running HEP.

In the standby HEP mode a P42 prime mover would be operating at 700rpm, not 900rpm. In the standby mode one of the traction alternators is used to deliver HEP hence no traction power is available. In the normal mode a separate HEP alternator is used for delivering HEP.

Usually when it is determined that a stop will be a long one the Engineer will change the HEP mode from normal mode to standby mode (to save fuel and reduce noise). To do so they have to shut HEP down and then restart it in the other mode. Similarly just before starting to move from a long stop, the HEP will go off momentarily as it is transitioned from standby mode to normal mode. This will happen irrespective of how many locos there are in the lashup. Afterall there is only one that will be running in any HEP mode.

 

[Triley]

I was going to ask who the crew is, but in my opinion it doesn’t matter, they’re all amazing on the Builder…..especially the ones out of CHI and SCD, but I can’t be objective in that case. I know so many in those bases.

I meant the OBS crew. I haven't the faintest idea of the scheduling of the operating crews any more, aside from when Josh posts about heading to work. lol

 

[tim49424]

I meant the OBS crew. I haven't the faintest idea of the scheduling of the operating crews any more, aside from when Josh posts about heading to work. lol

I’ve only made my opinions on personal interactions I’ve had when riding. I have less of an idea on who’s working than you, since I pay far less attention to Josh, (is there any way you can go below zero attention?). Just kidding there, he’s one of a kind and one anyone would wish they hadn’t broken the mold on when he was born. But the rest of his crew base, I can pretty much say the same about. As far as OBS from either end of the route goes, they are superior to any route I’ve ridden. Again, I can’t be objective. By far, the Empire Builder is my favorite, as you can see! Now I have to manage to meet you someday. That’s been too long in the making. When I’m in the sleepers I don’t make it your way much or at all (if you’re still working cafe car). I never know when you are working anyway else I’d come see you and introduce myself in person.

 

[Triley]

Unfortunately I'm back working the Cascades. I was hoping to be able to get back in the diner this fall when we bid in a month or so, but it sounds like we'll be cutting a crew (as are most other LD trains) to try and free up extra manpower for the extra board.

I appreciate the comments about the Builder crews, by the way! Though there are still bad eggs in either crew base, thankfully it's been changing over the recent years, and most of us take great pride in what we do. The same can be said for the majority of the T&E crews on the Builder as well. Josh of course is a prime example! I miss working with him.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Still have staffing shortages in Seattle? Saw a posting for extra board a while back, nobody applied?

 

[tim49424]

Unfortunately I'm back working the Cascades. I was hoping to be able to get back in the diner this fall when we bid in a month or so, but it sounds like we'll be cutting a crew (as are most other LD trains) to try and free up extra manpower for the extra board.

I appreciate the comments about the Builder crews, by the way! Though there are still bad eggs in either crew base, thankfully it's been changing over the recent years, and most of us take great pride in what we do. The same can be said for the majority of the T&E crews on the Builder as well. Josh of course is a prime example! I miss working with him.

I’m sorry to hear about your being transferred to the Cascades. I guess I’ll have to take another trip on that train. I’ve done the Cascades a couple of times. My first time was with my mom and sister PDX-SEA. It was mine and my sister’s first time ever in Seattle on my mom’s final trip of any kind in June, 2017. My mom died less than a year later.

My sister and I took the same trip in 2019. We have a cousin in PDX. I came up with the idea to do the mini triangle trip because I’m not too crazy about the catered box dinners departing on 28, so we’ve done the Cascades up to Seattle to get “real food” on the Builder.

 

[Cal]

because I’m not too crazy about the catered box dinners departing on 28

Last October that boxed meal was the best meal served on the train for me. Wasn't bad.

 

[tim49424]

Last October that boxed meal was the best meal served on the train for me. Wasn't bad.

The rest for you was flex meals, I’d imagine.

Clarifying a bit about what I said above, the fact I said I wasn’t fond of those boxed meals out of PDX, that was a vague and general statement. What I really meant to say is that with the boxed meal, you pretty much get what you’re served. I’m a picky eater and have left uneaten food in said box. I hate not cleaning my plate and wasting food. Now that traditional dining is back (and in my opinion better, although I miss a few things from the old menu) I will do the “triangle” again, because that way I get to experience the Empire Builder at it’s best. I get to see the Columbia and Puget Sound in one trip, have the dining car with the exception of 27, which I’m fine with the continental breakfast and I get the bonus of heading to Seattle on the Cascades. For a Michigan boy like me, it’s a few steps away from pure heaven! Add in the fact that I see my family in Portland, I’m one satisfied puppy when I’m out in the great northwest, probably my favorite region of our country.

 

[Cal]

The rest for you was flex meals, I’d imagine.

Clarifying a bit about what I said above, the fact I said I wasn’t fond of those boxed meals out of PDX, that was a vague and general statement. What I really meant to say is that with the boxed meal, you pretty much get what you’re served. I’m a picky eater and have left uneaten food in said box. I hate not cleaning my plate and wasting food. Now that traditional dining is back (and in my opinion better, although I miss a few things from the old menu) I will do the “triangle” again, because that way I get to experience the Empire Builder at it’s best. I get to see the Columbia and Puget Sound in one trip, have the dining car with the exception of 27, which I’m fine with the continental breakfast and I get the bonus of heading to Seattle on the Cascades. For a Michigan boy like me, it’s a few steps away from pure heaven! Add in the fact that I see my family in Portland, I’m one satisfied puppy when I’m out in the great northwest, probably my favorite region of our country.

Understandable! I've never been on the Cascades or Seattle section of the Builder, definitely on my bucket list.

 

[user 14106]

Unfortunately I'm back working the Cascades. I was hoping to be able to get back in the diner this fall when we bid in a month or so, but it sounds like we'll be cutting a crew (as are most other LD trains) to try and free up extra manpower for the extra board.

I appreciate the comments about the Builder crews, by the way! Though there are still bad eggs in either crew base, thankfully it's been changing over the recent years, and most of us take great pride in what we do. The same can be said for the majority of the T&E crews on the Builder as well. Josh of course is a prime example! I miss working with him.

Good luck with the bid. I haven’t been on the Builder - but hope to take it on my next cross country trip in another few years. I had some great OBS crews on the Zephyr, Coast Starlight, and Southwest Chief on my trip back in June both in the diner and my sleeping car attendants. While I see some reports of poor service online - I have had mostly good experiences with Amtrak OBS - you guys do a great job. Have certainly seen some belligerent fellow passengers out there though - particular on a recent Auto Train trip where I was quite impressed how cool both the dining car staff member and conductor kept.

 

[Triley]

Still have staffing shortages in Seattle? Saw a posting for extra board a while back, nobody applied?

Indeed we are. I don't know how many applicants they were able to get for SA/TAs, but I highly doubt it'll be "enough".

When we return to having china on the train, we need an extra SA on each train just to handle dishes. Assuming that they stay on the train from SEA-MKE and turn back there (instead of spending the night in CHI), that's we'll say....9 jobs. We need 11 TAs so we can go back to staffing the 711/811 coach (it's currently being crewed by CHI). So that's 20 SA/TAs. We really need 2 SAs upstairs in the diner during the summer/holidays, so we need to plan ahead for that. 31 SA/TAs. Plus we need a reasonable amount to cover the extra board, so I'll say maybe....42? We have 5 that just graduated classroom training (congrats Steve AKA Acela150!), plus 8 on the extra board. So once Steve's class completes the on-the-job training, we'll have 13 on the extra board, and still need another 29. As much as people hate coach not being able to be accommodated in the diner, this is why. Most crew bases are struggling like this.

We also only have 6 food specialists, and we're suppose to have 13-14. We just got caught up on the number of Chefs we have, but only because we pulled LSAs and Food Specialists to crosstrain them.

I’m sorry to hear about your being transferred to the Cascades. I guess I’ll have to take another trip on that train. I’ve done the Cascades a couple of times. My first time was with my mom and sister PDX-SEA. It was mine and my sister’s first time ever in Seattle on my mom’s final trip of any kind in June, 2017. My mom died less than a year later.

Eh...I'm happy to be over on the Cascades, but I'm also not happy, if that makes sense? I've been happy to see the crews I use to work with all the time, again. (I went over 3 years without working south of Portland to Eugene.) But the commute is killing me. No buses/trains across the border yet, and I don't drive, so I literally have to fly between Vancouver and Seattle. It's a super short flight, but it's expensive. Then I have 2 nights of hotels I have to pay for in Seattle. So, I'll really be pushing to go back to the Builder for the winter.

I'm sorry about the loss about your mom. Hopefully you remember all the good times and think of her when you're back on the Cascades.

Understandable! I've never been on the Cascades or Seattle section of the Builder, definitely on my bucket list.

Do iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit! After working Boston to all points on the corridor (except past Lynchburg to Roanoke), SEA-CHI, and between VAC-EUG on the Cascades, (as well as personal travel between DEN-CHI on the Zephyr, BOS/NYP-CHI on the LSL, and WAS-CHI on CL), the scenery in the Pacific Northwest is still at the top of the chart for me. I love heading home on 7, during breakfast in Washington. Simply amazing scenery, and I still find myself glued to the windows (when I have time to sit). Seattle to Everett is awesome as well, though if I were to recommend a short trip for someone, I would definitely say to continue north towards Canada. If you stay onboard to Vancouver, you'll spend almost 3 hours along the water, and can see some amazing views along the way.

Please try it, it won't disappoint.

Good luck with the bid. I haven’t been on the Builder - but hope to take it on my next cross country trip in another few years. I had some great OBS crews on the Zephyr, Coast Starlight, and Southwest Chief on my trip back in June both in the diner and my sleeping car attendants. While I see some reports of poor service online - I have had mostly good experiences with Amtrak OBS - you guys do a great job. Have certainly seen some belligerent fellow passengers out there though - particular on a recent Auto Train trip where I was quite impressed how cool both the dining car staff member and conductor kept.

Thank you! It's certainly not an easy job, but someone's got to do it, and I love it!

 

[Cal]

Indeed we are. I don't know how many applicants they were able to get for SA/TAs, but I highly doubt it'll be "enough".

When we return to having china on the train, we need an extra SA on each train just to handle dishes. Assuming that they stay on the train from SEA-MKE and turn back there (instead of spending the night in CHI), that's we'll say....9 jobs. We need 11 TAs so we can go back to staffing the 711/811 coach (it's currently being crewed by CHI). So that's 20 SA/TAs. We really need 2 SAs upstairs in the diner during the summer/holidays, so we need to plan ahead for that. 31 SA/TAs. Plus we need a reasonable amount to cover the extra board, so I'll say maybe....42? We have 5 that just graduated classroom training (congrats Steve AKA Acela150!), plus 8 on the extra board. So once Steve's class completes the on-the-job training, we'll have 13 on the extra board, and still need another 29. As much as people hate coach not being able to be accommodated in the diner, this is why. Most crew bases are struggling like this.

We also only have 6 food specialists, and we're suppose to have 13-14. We just got caught up on the number of Chefs we have, but only because we pulled LSAs and Food Specialists to crosstrain them.

Wow, I never really thought about all that. It's good to know Amtrak is still trying to get china back, and we know the reason why. I was quite surprised to see that train 7/8 (not including 27/28) is being crewed by two different bases, must irritating for scheduling.

 

[user 14106]

Indeed we are. I don't know how many applicants they were able to get for SA/TAs, but I highly doubt it'll be "enough".

When we return to having china on the train, we need an extra SA on each train just to handle dishes. Assuming that they stay on the train from SEA-MKE and turn back there (instead of spending the night in CHI), that's we'll say....9 jobs. We need 11 TAs so we can go back to staffing the 711/811 coach (it's currently being crewed by CHI). So that's 20 SA/TAs. We really need 2 SAs upstairs in the diner during the summer/holidays, so we need to plan ahead for that. 31 SA/TAs. Plus we need a reasonable amount to cover the extra board, so I'll say maybe....42? We have 5 that just graduated classroom training (congrats Steve AKA Acela150!), plus 8 on the extra board. So once Steve's class completes the on-the-job training, we'll have 13 on the extra board, and still need another 29. As much as people hate coach not being able to be accommodated in the diner, this is why. Most crew bases are struggling like this.

We also only have 6 food specialists, and we're suppose to have 13-14. We just got caught up on the number of Chefs we have, but only because we pulled LSAs and Food Specialists to crosstrain them.

I didn’t realize there was such a shortage - I just assumed the bean counters wanted to keep the crew smaller with just one SA since there’s no coach passengers and I figured they weren’t going to do anything that would cause a need to add more staff to the diner. I guess that’s why you never assume. I wonder if this is also part of why some routes have not added any coaches - not enough attendants.

 

[PaTrainFan]

Indeed we are. I don't know how many applicants they were able to get for SA/TAs, but I highly doubt it'll be "enough".

When we return to having china on the train, we need an extra SA on each train just to handle dishes. Assuming that they stay on the train from SEA-MKE and turn back there (instead of spending the night in CHI), that's we'll say....9 jobs. We need 11 TAs so we can go back to staffing the 711/811 coach (it's currently being crewed by CHI). So that's 20 SA/TAs. We really need 2 SAs upstairs in the diner during the summer/holidays, so we need to plan ahead for that. 31 SA/TAs. Plus we need a reasonable amount to cover the extra board, so I'll say maybe....42? We have 5 that just graduated classroom training (congrats Steve AKA Acela150!), plus 8 on the extra board. So once Steve's class completes the on-the-job training, we'll have 13 on the extra board, and still need another 29. As much as people hate coach not being able to be accommodated in the diner, this is why. Most crew bases are struggling like this.

We also only have 6 food specialists, and we're suppose to have 13-14. We just got caught up on the number of Chefs we have, but only because we pulled LSAs and Food Specialists to crosstrain them.

The logistics of this is confounding (at least to a simpleton like me!). My take from your detail is that this could be the single biggest reason for shorter consists on many trains and thus driving up fares.

But the commute is killing me. No buses/trains across the border yet, and I don't drive, so I literally have to fly between Vancouver and Seattle. It's a super short flight, but it's expensive. Then I have 2 nights of hotels I have to pay for in Seattle. So, I'll really be pushing to go back to the Builder for the winter.

No one, least of all me, wants to get into your finances but I don't know how you survive with this kind of commuter expense. Thank you for being so dedicated to your passengers and to Amtrak!

 

[tim49424]

Eh...I'm happy to be over on the Cascades, but I'm also not happy, if that makes sense? I've been happy to see the crews I use to work with all the time, again. (I went over 3 years without working south of Portland to Eugene.) But the commute is killing me. No buses/trains across the border yet, and I don't drive, so I literally have to fly between Vancouver and Seattle. It's a super short flight, but it's expensive. Then I have 2 nights of hotels I have to pay for in Seattle. So, I'll really be pushing to go back to the Builder for the winter.

I'm sorry about the loss about your mom. Hopefully you remember all the good times and think of her when you're back on the Cascades.

It makes very good sense Thomas. The Cascades is a fantastic route but when you have to expend your hard earned money to finance your job, it’s counterproductive. The shorter the domestic trip the more costly for the ticket. I’ve never understood that. Do you have to get a special exemption for the flight across the border?


She’d ridden a few other trains in her short Amtrak time. I think of her all the time whenever and wherever I’m going. Her only trip on the Cascades was part of a triangle trip with us where she’d suggested going to Seattle since my sister and I’ve never been. But the three of us had previously traveled on the California Zephyr, Coast Starlight, the Portland leg of the Builder, the Hiawatha, the Wolverine and of course the Pere Marquette, where she knew quite a few conductors, thanks to me, and even rode with some. She even experienced two busses, one from SPK to PDX and the other from Chicago to Holland. We had (and I always) will have fond memories of our train trips together.

 

[west point]

Is there any way we can get numbers of shortages thru out the Amtrak system? Would not want you to disclose unless no retribution.

 

[Triley]

Wow, I never really thought about all that. It's good to know Amtrak is still trying to get china back, and we know the reason why. I was quite surprised to see that train 7/8 (not including 27/28) is being crewed by two different bases, must irritating for scheduling.

Honestly, it's not that bad, from the scheduling point of view at least. To us it's no different than the crew split between 7/27, except now the crew splits after the diner, not the coach on 7/8. The biggest concern I have is that it is a slippery slope as far as crewing goes. CHI and SEA crew bases have fought over Builder before, and there's always a threat that the Builder could get turned back in to a CHI crewed train, and SEA only would retain LSAs for the Cascades.

We're using their TAs to crew the coach car on 7/8, and we have so few Food Specialists that we're only running ours to Havre and back (same day), while CHI is sending theirs to Shelby and back (laying overnight).

I didn’t realize there was such a shortage - I just assumed the bean counters wanted to keep the crew smaller with just one SA since there’s no coach passengers and I figured they weren’t going to do anything that would cause a need to add more staff to the diner. I guess that’s why you never assume. I wonder if this is also part of why some routes have not added any coaches - not enough attendants.

It's easy to assume it, based on how things have appeared in the past. But nope, with the current sleeper passenger counts, we would always have 2 SAs. Now we get 1 SA, and if the extra board can handle it, they'll try to get us a second SA when possible. Of course, with many patrons being suggested to take orders to go again, I don't know what staffing needs really look like. Someone has to pack the to go orders though, and the sleeper attendants would likely be running crazy with taking orders back and forth.

As far as the coach situation goes, I really can't speak on why that's happening. 1 TA has taken care of up to 3 coach cars in the past (though we have fought that from a cleanliness and safety standpoint). 1 TA can reasonably be expected to take care of 2 coaches.

The logistics of this is confounding (at least to a simpleton like me!). My take from your detail is that this could be the single biggest reason for shorter consists on many trains and thus driving up fares.

No one, least of all me, wants to get into your finances but I don't know how you survive with this kind of commuter expense. Thank you for being so dedicated to your passengers and to Amtrak!

It's hard to wrap your head around, unless you're familiar with the situation. It was all rather mindblowing when I started, but now I rather enjoy thinking about the logistics of the operations of Amtrak, or even other transit companies. Honestly, I think I would be great at equipment and personnel scheduling. I even came up with a few proposals for potential job schedules for the LSAs on the Cascades once we get one of the Canada trains back.

Honestly, it's a rough situation these days. As I mentioned, it sounds like almost every western long distance train is going to be losing a day of rest at home, to try and help the staffing shortage. It will be a very small difference, but at this point, every bit helps. Hopefully once things stabilize, consist lengths will return to normal!

I won't lie, it's expensive and has been a bit of a struggle these days, but nothing that can't be handled. This past week I found out that our medical covers the cost of any Covid tests, yesterday I filed claims to get reimbursed for the 11 Covid tests I've taken so far (in fact, I have my 12th test scheduled in a little over 4 hours from now), so that'll help. Everything else will be a travel expense for work when it comes to tax time, though it hardly makes a difference. Honestly, I applied to Canadian Pacific as a conductor in the Vancouver BC area, and ended up turning the job down due to things in the contract that didn't sit well with me (the possibility of "forced temporary relocation" anywhere up to 1600 miles away, for example). I also have been looking at BC Ferries, and our local bus/subway system in Vancouver, but haven't seen anything that's worth it.

The trick to me getting through this is reminding myself that it's only temporary, and eventually the border will reopen, and I can resume taking the thruway bus or train across the border. The schedules will be changed, and I won't have to keep staying in a hotel forever!

Thanks once again for the compliments, by the way!

It makes very good sense Thomas. The Cascades is a fantastic route but when you have to expend your hard earned money to finance your job, it’s counterproductive. The shorter the domestic trip the more costly for the ticket. I’ve never understood that. Do you have to get a special exemption for the flight across the border?

She’d ridden a few other trains in her short Amtrak time. I think of her all the time whenever and wherever I’m going. Her only trip on the Cascades was part of a triangle trip with us where she’d suggested going to Seattle since my sister and I’ve never been. But the three of us had previously traveled on the California Zephyr, Coast Starlight, the Portland leg of the Builder, the Hiawatha, the Wolverine and of course the Pere Marquette, where she knew quite a few conductors, thanks to me, and even rode with some. She even experienced two busses, one from SPK to PDX and the other from Chicago to Holland. We had (and I always) will have fond memories of our train trips together.

It's crazy how expensive short flights are, isn't it? Suddenly demand was so high on the Seattle to Vancouver flights that Alaska Airlines was up to charging $399 for the 59 minute flight (again, only about 25 minutes in the air) for last minute bookings! Thankfully additional flights are coming available starting tomorrow, so prices have come down considerably, though it's still more than I'm paying per night for a hotel.

As an American citizen, I'm allowed entry in to the US at all times, I just have to provide a negative Covid test prior to boarding my flight. For the return to Canada it was a bit more complicated, but for myself being considered a "frequent cross-border worker", I do not have to provide a Covid test for entry back in to Canada. I did have some issues with the airlines not knowing this exemption, and was denied boarding 3 times. Twice with Delta, I got them to reimburse the cost of the Covid test and hotel. With Air Canada I just cancelled and walked over to the Alaska counter. Because of these issues I was flying Alaska exclusively from Seattle back to Vancouver, but now that the Canadian government has spelled it out quite clearly that someone in my position is exempt, starting next week I'm going back to flying whoever was reasonably priced with the right departure time.

The good news out of all this? I got Delta to match my Air Canada elite status. Then I got Alaska to match Delta. lol So now I've got low level elite status with Air Canada, Alaska, and Delta. Free checked bags, priority boarding, upgrades to First Class. I've also got a growing number of reward points/miles between the three reward programs, so when it comes time for a vacation or any "extra" trips I need to make, they may be free as well.

Is there any way we can get numbers of shortages thru out the Amtrak system? Would not want you to disclose unless no retribution.

I don't have access to anything like that. Best I can do is make guesses based on what I'm hearing from other crew bases. If I had to guess? I'd say a minimum of 75 OBS short, just between CHI/LAX/SEA. But I believe CHI was working on a large class, but whether they have the applicants they need or not.....