Pricing of Rooms

[trainfan]

I have be travelling by sleeper once a year for about the last 10 years on one of the

western routes. I could pick up a deluxe room for six to eight hundred using am-snag

Now , as I plan a March trip on the "EB" I see the low bucket at $1053 CHI to SEA

Have prices been increased that much?

THANKS for any info or advice on this subject!!!

Trainfan

 

[Ryan]

Yep.

 

[roadman3313]

They will sometimes go down again closer to the time of departure based on sales numbers and demand. The prices are more market-based that they have been historically in the past IME. The base price tends to go up a few dollar per year but not by hundreds generally.

 

[Ispolkom]

Yes, now on the Empire Builder sleeper space isn't often sold in the lowest bucket. I travel from St. Paul to Minot half a dozen times a year, and I've seen the price especially of bedrooms and family bedrooms soar. The family bedroom, for instance, which used to be occasionally available for $169, is now almost always $548 or more.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Test Bookings on most of the LD Routes Show Bedrooms going for High Buckets Most Days due to Supply and Demand!

I see Prices over $1,000 on lots of Trains on Most Days including some of the Routes in the East (LSL especially)which Generally are Shorter Trips than the Western LD Trains!

Roomettes, while Mostly Starting in Higher Buckets, are still Fairly Reasonable on Most Trips and Days, that's where amsnag.net comes in Handy if you're Travel Time is Flexible! And Remember, the Room Charge is Based on the Approved Occupancy of the Room Including Meals in the Diner,Not Per Person! Each Person Pays the Low Bucket Rail Fare with any Discounts Due!

 

[dlagrua]

This has been discussed before and the best answer that I can give is that sleeper prices now use a complex formula that considers factors such as sales history (for a particular train), current sales , rates at which those sales are occurring, time of the year, and forecasted demand. Take all of these components and plug them into a dynamic graph that develops the price on a given day.

 

[Nathanael]

Yes, Amtrak uses a fairly complex formula. But at its base the high prices are simple: there is huge, huge demand for rooms now, and Amtrak only has so many sleeper cars.

 

[zephyr17]

As long as they have the formulas right and rooms aren't going empty, more power to them. They are maximizing the return on a limited resource, as they should.

 

[trainfan]

Thanks for the Info ! If some someone could point me to a previous thread on this subject

it might help me from asking worn out questions!!!



Trainfan

 

[Guest]

This has been discussed before and the best answer that I can give is that sleeper prices now use a complex formula that considers factors such as sales history (for a particular train), current sales , rates at which those sales are occurring, time of the year, and forecasted demand. Take all of these components and plug them into a dynamic graph that develops the price on a given day.

This has always been the formula. Demand has changed while supply has not.

 

[Ispolkom]

This has been discussed before and the best answer that I can give is that sleeper prices now use a complex formula that considers factors such as sales history (for a particular train), current sales , rates at which those sales are occurring, time of the year, and forecasted demand. Take all of these components and plug them into a dynamic graph that develops the price on a given day.

This has always been the formula. Demand has changed while supply has not.

That is not my perception. Five years ago,at least on the routes I traveled, prices moved stepwise, from lowest bucket to highest, as tickets were sold. Now pricing seems much more dynamic, starting higher, dropping if demand isn't there, even plunging shortly before date of travel. Demand is certainly up, but when you buy a roomette priced in the second bucket, and are assigned Roomette 2 in the sleeper closest to the dining car, it seems to me that the lowest bucket is gone, regardless of demand.

 

[dlagrua]

The problem is that the current formula is not filling up all the sleepers all of the time. On our trip to CHI on the CL in mid June 2013, (arguably the beginning of vacation season) the sleepers were not sold out. On the return trip they were sold out only because EB passengers missed their connection the previous day. I don't know if we can say the current Amtrak system works best. To me its like "lets put the price out there and see who bites". On some trains like the LSL and CDL they almost always sell out but on others many rooms can sometimes be available. IMO the current system no longer provides any incentive to those who used to book and pay early. I would say that some of these passengers are being lost but maybe not.

 

[tonys96]

I tend to agree. In every other case (planes/hotels/tours, etc) booking early gets you the lowest price, therefore us lemmings have been trained to believe that if we are looking six to 12 months out, we sre seeing the best possible price. So if the price quoted is too high six to 12 months out, we will believe that it can only go higher, and will look elsewhere. I believe Amtrak loses potential customers this way. Loses them forever.

 

[me_little_me]

Airlines often work in a similar way - especially for domestic First Class and International First/Business class which are much more limited than coach seats. Prices start high, drop as the date gets closer if demand is low then jump in the weeks before the flight as they fill up. The difference is that unless those tickets are refundable, you are stuck with the price or have to pay a big penalty to have them re-issued at a lower price and often that penalty would exceed the savings. I priced 1st class tix to Alaska last year - starting price 8 months out was $2600, then dropped to $2100 at 3 months. At 6 weeks, I bought at $1300. They went up from there.

 

[tonys96]

Airlines often work in a similar way - especially for domestic First Class and International First/Business class which are much more limited than coach seats. Prices start high, drop as the date gets closer if demand is low then jump in the weeks before the flight as they fill up. The difference is that unless those tickets are refundable, you are stuck with the price or have to pay a big penalty to have them re-issued at a lower price and often that penalty would exceed the savings. I priced 1st class tix to Alaska last year - starting price 8 months out was $2600, then dropped to $2100 at 3 months. At 6 weeks, I bought at $1300. They went up from there.

I have never been able to fly first class, nor international, so I have no comment about that.

Coach seems to be cheaper way out in advance, unless SWA starts a sale, which is hit and miss.

 

[zephyr17]

Usually the best time to book airline coach tickets is 6-8 weeks in advance (except holiday periods). Much earlier than that and usually the discounts aren't there yet.

 

[AlanB]

The problem is that the current formula is not filling up all the sleepers all of the time. On our trip to CHI on the CL in mid June 2013, (arguably the beginning of vacation season) the sleepers were not sold out. On the return trip they were sold out only because EB passengers missed their connection the previous day. I don't know if we can say the current Amtrak system works best. To me its like "lets put the price out there and see who bites". On some trains like the LSL and CDL they almost always sell out but on others many rooms can sometimes be available. IMO the current system no longer provides any incentive to those who used to book and pay early. I would say that some of these passengers are being lost but maybe not.

Well ridership in sleepers was up 4.8% in 2012 vs. 2011, going from 663,947 people in sleepers in 2011 to 691,776 in 2012. And Revenue was up 5.9%, so clearly it isn't hurting ridership or revenues.

 

[Guest]

This has been discussed before and the best answer that I can give is that sleeper prices now use a complex formula that considers factors such as sales history (for a particular train), current sales , rates at which those sales are occurring, time of the year, and forecasted demand. Take all of these components and plug them into a dynamic graph that develops the price on a given day.

This has always been the formula. Demand has changed while supply has not.

That is not my perception. Five years ago,at least on the routes I traveled, prices moved stepwise, from lowest bucket to highest, as tickets were sold. Now pricing seems much more dynamic, starting higher, dropping if demand isn't there, even plunging shortly before date of travel. Demand is certainly up, but when you buy a roomette priced in the second bucket, and are assigned Roomette 2 in the sleeper closest to the dining car, it seems to me that the lowest bucket is gone, regardless of demand.

It would not be prudent of Amtrak to offer lowest bucket fares for rooms which they know they could sell at higher fares. I did revenue management at Amtrak a dozen years ago and I would often not offer the lowest bucket or two for peak travel periods, but on the other hand, would need to offer half or more of my inventory at the lowest bucket for off-peak travel periods to increase ridership and revenue. Of course, we always managed dynamically -- changing inventory allocations as demand materialized, or not. Additionally, if we happened to be able to add additional equipment to a specific departure, that would often warrant an adjustment. Remember, demand on each individual route varies as well.
Room assignments are not necessarily any indication of inventory allocations. I always ask for lower level when I book and with Amtrak's liberal cancellation policy, someone else's favorite room may come available close to departure during a peak period at the highest bucket.

 

[SarahZ]

Room assignments are not necessarily any indication of inventory allocations. I always ask for lower level when I book and with Amtrak's liberal cancellation policy, someone else's favorite room may come available close to departure during a peak period at the highest bucket.

True. A roomette opened up on the SWC the weekend before Christmas, and it was #6 on the upper level of car 330. 330 #5 and #6 are our favorite rooms and in a really good location, so I was surprised it was available, but I figured someone must have canceled their trip.

 

[Ispolkom]

It would not be prudent of Amtrak to offer lowest bucket fares for rooms which they know they could sell at higher fares. I did revenue management at Amtrak a dozen years ago and I would often not offer the lowest bucket or two for peak travel periods, but on the other hand, would need to offer half or more of my inventory at the lowest bucket for off-peak travel periods to increase ridership and revenue. Of course, we always managed dynamically -- changing inventory allocations as demand materialized, or not. Additionally, if we happened to be able to add additional equipment to a specific departure, that would often warrant an adjustment. Remember, demand on each individual route varies as well.

Room assignments are not necessarily any indication of inventory allocations. I always ask for lower level when I book and with Amtrak's liberal cancellation policy, someone else's favorite room may come available close to departure during a peak period at the highest bucket.

Your description of how sleeper space was priced is congruent with mine. You write that on peak demand periods space was more expensive, while you "would need to offer half or more of my inventory at the lowest bucket for off-peak travel periods." That's how I remember it. If you weren't traveling at Christmas or during the summer, it was not difficult to book a sleeper at the cheapest price, especially if you could buy far in advance. Now almost no inventory is offered at the lowest bucket at any time on the route I'm most familiar with. Look at the month of March for the city pair MSP-MOT, surely not a peak travel time for the Hi Line. The lowest bucket for a roomette between those cities is $98. There is not one day in the month of March that a roomette in either train #7 or #27 is offered at that price. Not one day. Everything is at least $144. Roomettes are occasionally offered at $98 (Amsnag indicates that the price for 11/20 is at $98, for instance), but it's very much a rarity now.

I won't argue that the present dispensation isn't better for Amtrak. I'm willing to pay the increased price for a roomette, so they're making more money off of me, and as AlanB points out, both revenue and ridership is up.

What I am saying is that my experience in booking tickets on the trains I ride (and I average more than 20 nights in Amtrak sleepers each year) is different now than it was 5 years ago, and is generally more expensive, even when I'm traveling at off-peak periods.

 

[chakk]

This has been discussed before and the best answer that I can give is that sleeper prices now use a complex formula that considers factors such as sales history (for a particular train), current sales , rates at which those sales are occurring, time of the year, and forecasted demand. Take all of these components and plug them into a dynamic graph that develops the price on a given day.

This has always been the formula. Demand has changed while supply has not.

That is not my perception. Five years ago,at least on the routes I traveled, prices moved stepwise, from lowest bucket to highest, as tickets were sold. Now pricing seems much more dynamic, starting higher, dropping if demand isn't there, even plunging shortly before date of travel. Demand is certainly up, but when you buy a roomette priced in the second bucket, and are assigned Roomette 2 in the sleeper closest to the dining car, it seems to me that the lowest bucket is gone, regardless of demand.

Not necessarily so. For example, I booked an award trip many months ago (on the first date of availability to book, actually) for a planned trip in 2014. I was assigned Roomette 2 in the sleeper closest to the dining car on all segments. I have since had to cancel the trip. So those roomettes 2 went back into the pool. I would not be surprised if they have since been sold at a price one or more steps above the lowest bucket, since many (most?) of the other roomettes for those dates were already sold to others when I was obliged to cancel my award trip.

It is what it is.

 

[chakk]

I tend to agree. In every other case (planes/hotels/tours, etc) booking early gets you the lowest price, therefore us lemmings have been trained to believe that if we are looking six to 12 months out, we sre seeing the best possible price. So if the price quoted is too high six to 12 months out, we will believe that it can only go higher, and will look elsewhere. I believe Amtrak loses potential customers this way. Loses them forever.

I certainly am not one of the "lemmings" to believe this to be the case (i.e., booking early will always get you the lowest price). Airlines are always offering discounted prices from what has been the norm at many times of the year. There is probably some "skill" in determining when those times will be. But for me, it is probably more luck than skill in finding them. And as for rental cars, I ALWAYS check my rental car reservations for lower rates several times before the actual date of car pickup. Just last month, I was able to save more than $100 on a compact car rental in Hawaii that I had booked six weeks before the date of pickup, when I went back to the same rental car company website two weeks before the pickup and discovered the lower rate.

 

[trainfan]

So, if you buy your ticket and later Amtrak lowers the fare at a later date beause of low demand

for that day will they refund you ? (If you point it out to them )

Trainfan

 

[J-1 3235]

Yes, in full to a voucher, less 10% otherwise.

 

[tonys96]

I tend to agree. In every other case (planes/hotels/tours, etc) booking early gets you the lowest price, therefore us lemmings have been trained to believe that if we are looking six to 12 months out, we sre seeing the best possible price. So if the price quoted is too high six to 12 months out, we will believe that it can only go higher, and will look elsewhere. I believe Amtrak loses potential customers this way. Loses them forever.

I certainly am not one of the "lemmings" to believe this to be the case (i.e., booking early will always get you the lowest price). Airlines are always offering discounted prices from what has been the norm at many times of the year. There is probably some "skill" in determining when those times will be. But for me, it is probably more luck than skill in finding them. And as for rental cars, I ALWAYS check my rental car reservations for lower rates several times before the actual date of car pickup. Just last month, I was able to save more than $100 on a compact car rental in Hawaii that I had booked six weeks before the date of pickup, when I went back to the same rental car company website two weeks before the pickup and discovered the lower rate.

Ya know, there is always anecdotal evidence to prove just about everything under the Sun. One time I had to cancel a SWA flight to Florida, and was able to get another two days later for about 60% of the fare, due to a three-day SWA sale.

But, I am not going to be expecting this all the time from now on. And I am not going to depend on luck to plan/finance a vacation.

I still say that putting higher prices on fares way out early makes riders look elsewhere if they are priced out of the trip, and those customers will not come back, after finding alternate transport. They will assume Amtrak's pricing is ALWAYS too high.

Those of us here who are aware of the idiosyncrasies of the fares might wait to make our plans, Joe and Joan Sixpack will simply book another form of travel. Lost customers...forever.