Private intercity railway starts out in New York

[trainviews]

I actually don't know in which forum to put this as there has been no need for a forum on private intercity rail up until now, so it doesn't exist...

But apparently a New private intercity rail service has started out in upstate New York. From progressiverailroading.com:

On July 23, Iowa Pacific Holdings subsidiary Saratoga and North Creek Railway (SNC) launched passenger-rail service between North Creek and Saratoga Springs, N.Y. — the first privately operated, for-profit and regularly scheduled intercity passenger-rail service in the United States in more than 40 years, Iowa Pacific officials said in a prepared statement.

...

Regularly scheduled trains will stop at several intermediate stations along the route and connect with the Amtrak Ethan Allen Express in Saratoga Springs. The service — which features full-length dome cars — currently is available Thursday through Monday.

Full article:

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/Iowa-Pacific-introduces-intercity-passengerrail-service-in-New-York--27386

This is very interesting although I think it is odd to pick two small towns to launch out the service between (even if the area is pretty touristy). But lets hope for a success here!

Has anyone got more info?

 

[Anderson]

This is a head-scratching operation: The site implies full dining car service, which is (regrettably) a bigtime loss leader. Iowa Pacific (the overarching company) has run a number of passenger operations for a while. However, I can't make heads or tails of their pricing model: They're charging about a third less than they charge on their Rio Grande operation over trackage that...well, is there any precedent for even a tourist service in the area?

Looking over Iowa Pacific's holdings, I suspect they know what they're doing...my best guess is that they're expecting to run a cross-platform transfer operation with Amtrak and attract NYC-based tourists to upstate New York. Will it work? No idea, but there seems to be a model here...even if I can't quite sort how they're going to turn a profit. I will say I'd love to look over their books once this gets running and see how they make it work (or don't!).

Edit: Let me say that I don't consider this to be "real" intercity rail unless you also consider their Rio Grande operations to be such. Also as an annoying nitpick, as operators of a line out in Colorado, these folks should know that the Rio Grande was still running the Rio Grande Zephyr in 1983, 28 years ago (and if you want to discount that, Southern was still running the Crescent in '79). Oops.

 

[JeffW]

As an upstater, I can say that there is quite a tourist draw for seeing nature throughout the year (especially the fall--this is the right time to get started). This might be trying to pull from that crowd, or perhaps provide scenic rides. The Thursday through Monday travel days, along with dome cars, makes me think that they're really going for the scenic scene!

 

[rrdude]

It's "intercity" only technically and/or "in name only". It gets nice PR. It's still just a route for tourists. ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that. And, to their credit, they share the station with Amtrak, so if I were in their shoes, (and I once was) I'd do the same thing.

No such thing as "bad PR".

Once I saw it, I looked up "connections" from Amtrak 69, but found that their Hudson Explorer leaves SAR about two hours prior to 69's arrival..............

Ride 'em while they are running...............

 

[the_traveler]

As one who grew up 13 miles north of Saratoga, I know that area well. That line is very scenic, running thru mountains and woods up to North Creek!

(And for a little history, North Creek was where IIRC Teddy Roosevelt took the oath of office after the previous President died in office!)

One question I have is where does it say it will have dining cars?

All I saw in the article is that it will have full length dome cars. (Like The Great Dome.) That is not a Dining Car, though.

 

[had8ley]

This is very coincidentally the start of a seven week run at the horse track Saratoga Springs. Those Westhamptoners that get tired of the fun, sun and suds head upstate for a breather(although it looks hotter up north than New Orleans!). I can't see anybody riding, with snow shoes, in the middle of February "Just" to say they did it. :lol:

 

[Rail Freak]

One question I have is where does it say it will have dining cars?

All I saw in the article is that it will have full length dome cars. (Like The Great Dome.) That is not a Dining Car, though.

They have food service on the upper level of the Dome Car

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

OK, my dumb questions for today is, I thought no passenger rail service is legally allowed to complete with Amtrak? That Amtrak has a monopoly.

 

[rrdude]

OK, my dumb questions for today is, I thought no passenger rail service is legally allowed to complete with Amtrak? That Amtrak has a monopoly.

Nope. No such law. Just that no one in their right mind would attempt to do so, without SOME form of Govt. support, be it infrastructure, operating subsidy, etc., etc.

 

[Pat Harper]

OK, my dumb questions for today is, I thought no passenger rail service is legally allowed to complete with Amtrak? That Amtrak has a monopoly.

rrdude beat me to this. My opinion is that if Amtrak doesn't run between Saratoga Springs and North Creek, then there wouldn't be any competition.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

This is what has me thinking this way.

Bush Plan Would End A Monopoly For Amtrak

Was Bush successful?

 

[the_traveler]

What do you think?

I don't see any schedules from CSX, NS, UP or BNSF.

After all, didn't the railroads want to get out of the passenger carrying business, and that is why Amtrak was formed in 1971?

And Saratoga to North Creek has no competition - not even with Greyhound! And as said, The Saratoga Horse Racing season (the oldest track in the country) runs during July and August! Could it be a coincidence that they decided to start running now?

(And my guess it will only run in the summer and fall - and maybe spring - but not winter.)

 

[the_traveler]

One question I have is where does it say it will have dining cars?

All I saw in the article is that it will have full length dome cars. (Like The Great Dome.) That is not a Dining Car, though.

They have food service on the upper level of the Dome Car

Not in the Great Dome, or any other dome I've been on. The Great Dome does have a snack bar on the lower level, but is is not used. And it is a far cry from a "Full Service Dining Car. (It is not like a Superliner Dining car where food is prepared on the lower level and served on the upper level!)

 

[Anderson]

What do you think?

I don't see any schedules from CSX, NS, UP or BNSF.

After all, didn't the railroads want to get out of the passenger carrying business, and that is why Amtrak was formed in 1971?

And Saratoga to North Creek has no competition - not even with Greyhound! And as said, The Saratoga Horse Racing season (the oldest track in the country) runs during July and August! Could it be a coincidence that they decided to start running now?

(And my guess it will only run in the summer and fall - and maybe spring - but not winter.)

Well, remember that most notably Southern and DRG&W (as well as the Rock Island and Central of Georgia) stayed in the intercity business for a while. The DX project isn't Amtrak, and neither are a number of other proposals that've been mooted for LA-LV service. Amtrak is a monopoly only because the field has been conceded by others, not because it is a legal monopoly (like, say, British Rail).

 

[cirdan]

OK, my dumb questions for today is, I thought no passenger rail service is legally allowed to complete with Amtrak? That Amtrak has a monopoly.

I doubt it. After all there are several places where commuter rail services could be considered to be competing with Amtrak.

 

[jis]

Actually a tourist service operated between North Creek and Riverside by Upper Hudson Railroad from 1998 till last year. UHRR lost its contract with Warren County, which owns the track between Hadley and North Creek, last year, and the new contractor is Iowa Pacific. As part of their contract they are committed run a certain number of trains each season. They also decided to run the service all the way from Saratoga Springs to North Creek covering the entire line owned by Warren County from Hadley to North Creek, plus running on CP owned trackage from Hadley to Saratoga Springs.

The claim about first scheduled intercity blah blah is a bit of a hyperbole IMHO since similar schedule service around weekends in season has been run by Adirondack Scenic from Utica Amtrak Station to Thendera for many years. They have also run service on the north end of the line between Tupper Lake and Lake Placid off and on.

 

[transit54]

OK, my dumb questions for today is, I thought no passenger rail service is legally allowed to complete with Amtrak? That Amtrak has a monopoly.

Nope. No such law. Just that no one in their right mind would attempt to do so, without SOME form of Govt. support, be it infrastructure, operating subsidy, etc., etc.

Correct. IMO, this is one of the major reasons that Mica's attempt privatization attempt is either a thinly veiled attempt to kill Amtrak entirely or is simply inexcusably misinformed. If there was a market for regular scheduled intercity passenger service, there's no reason that private companies couldn't get into it now. The fact that Amtrak has a nearly complete monopoly on intercity service speaks to the economics of the matter, not the alleged inefficiency of Amtrak.

 

[Guest]

Yeah, looks like a scenic railroad offhand. The second paragraph in the article says that there are stricter rules for passenger railways that they are going to be operating under. What are these rules and why would they choose to operate under them instead of the rules a scenic railroad operates under?

 

[MikefromCrete]

Actually a tourist service operated between North Creek and Riverside by Upper Hudson Railroad from 1998 till last year. UHRR lost its contract with Warren County, which owns the track between Hadley and North Creek, last year, and the new contractor is Iowa Pacific. As part of their contract they are committed run a certain number of trains each season. They also decided to run the service all the way from Saratoga Springs to North Creek covering the entire line owned by Warren County from Hadley to North Creek, plus running on CP owned trackage from Hadley to Saratoga Springs.

The claim about first scheduled intercity blah blah is a bit of a hyperbole IMHO since similar schedule service around weekends in season has been run by Adirondack Scenic from Utica Amtrak Station to Thendera for many years. They have also run service on the north end of the line between Tupper Lake and Lake Placid off and on.

I had the pleasure of riding the Upper Hudson River Railroad several years ago and it was a nice tourist train ride. Iowa Pacific is taking over the franchise and has extended service all the way to Saratoga Springs. I'm sure it will be a nice ride, but the whole "intercity" service seems a bit of a stretch. Except for the fact that it uses a station also served by Amtrak, it looks to be the same as, say, the Grand Canyon Railroad or any number of other tourist railroads. Iowa Pacific seems to be a creative outfit, so hopefully this will be a success.

 

[the_traveler]

Hadley

Does our had8ley own a town too!

I don't know how Jay can operate J&J Saloon in Beaumont and also run a town in NYS!

 

[jis]

Yeah, looks like a scenic railroad offhand. The second paragraph in the article says that there are stricter rules for passenger railways that they are going to be operating under. What are these rules and why would they choose to operate under them instead of the rules a scenic railroad operates under?

It maybe because CP insists on that for running on their trackage.

 

[Rail Freak]

One question I have is where does it say it will have dining cars?

All I saw in the article is that it will have full length dome cars. (Like The Great Dome.) That is not a Dining Car, though.

They have food service on the upper level of the Dome Car

Not in the Great Dome, or any other dome I've been on. The Great Dome does have a snack bar on the lower level, but is is not used. And it is a far cry from a "Full Service Dining Car. (It is not like a Superliner Dining car where food is prepared on the lower level and served on the upper level!)

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Passenger will receive a Baggage Check when picking up tickets or if they get on lineside, the conductor will issue Baggage Check. Space is limited.

 

[Ispolkom]

They have food service on the upper level of the Dome Car

Not in the Great Dome, or any other dome I've been on. The Great Dome does have a snack bar on the lower level, but is is not used. And it is a far cry from a "Full Service Dining Car. (It is not like a Superliner Dining car where food is prepared on the lower level and served on the upper level!)

Then you haven't seen the Friends of the 261's Super Dome. I just had dinner on Tuesday on it, as it was shuttled on the back of #7 traveling from Chicago to St. Paul. That dome car has a full kitchen on the lower level, and a bar on the upper level. Usually the food is plated downstairs and served to diners up top, sort of like on a Superliner diner, though without the dumbwaiter. This time there were so few passengers (5) that the food was put out buffet style in the lower lounge.

 

[bretton88]

They have food service on the upper level of the Dome Car

Not in the Great Dome, or any other dome I've been on. The Great Dome does have a snack bar on the lower level, but is is not used. And it is a far cry from a "Full Service Dining Car. (It is not like a Superliner Dining car where food is prepared on the lower level and served on the upper level!)

Then you haven't seen the Friends of the 261's Super Dome. I just had dinner on Tuesday on it, as it was shuttled on the back of #7 traveling from Chicago to St. Paul. That dome car has a full kitchen on the lower level, and a bar on the upper level. Usually the food is plated downstairs and served to diners up top, sort of like on a Superliner diner, though without the dumbwaiter. This time there were so few passengers (5) that the food was put out buffet style in the lower lounge.

I've been on the Iowa Pacific dome. I took it 2 years ago when it was running on the La Veta- Alamosa route in Colorado. Its a very well kept car, and has full dining facilities (kitchen, etc) on the lower level. The menu that we got offered was fairly limited, but they do have the ability to send food up to the bar that is up top. Iowa Pacific is a great operation, they keep their equipment in top shape. It was great to ride this dome. They now have several more ex ATSF full domes that they have acquired for their operations, but the dome that I traveled on was this dome that they keep traveling around the country (it was at Trainfest last weekend). With the notable exception of the Ski Train, whatever Iowa Pacific does is highly successful. They know how to run a railroad.

 

[Gratt]

It's "intercity" only technically and/or "in name only". It gets nice PR. It's still just a route for tourists. ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that. And, to their credit, they share the station with Amtrak, so if I were in their shoes, (and I once was) I'd do the same thing.

No such thing as "bad PR".

Once I saw it, I looked up "connections" from Amtrak 69, but found that their Hudson Explorer leaves SAR about two hours prior to 69's arrival..............

Ride 'em while they are running...............

It looks like it is meant to connect with the Ethan Allen not the Adirondack. Even still with the 291 getting into SAR at 6:52 and their train leaving it at 7:00

they seem to be cutting it close.

https://www.sncrr.com/schedules.html