Proposal for more passenger rail in Saskatchewan

[danasgoodstuff]

FAQ – Sask ReConnect I don't know much about this, but I do know the geography and it seems at least theoretically feasible.

 

[Willbridge]

FAQ – Sask ReConnect I don't know much about this, but I do know the geography and it seems at least theoretically feasible.

Saskatchewan always produces such well-written and reasonable proposals. Then...

Federal aid was used to get Quebec City, Ottawa and Saskatoon passengers out of central stations into modern, remote locations.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

Saskatchewan always produces such well-written and reasonable proposals. Then...

Federal aid was used to get Quebec City, Ottawa and Saskatoon passengers out of central stations into modern, remote locations.
View attachment 33504

The CN Freight Yard at the edge of Saskatoon is a rotten place for a passenger station. It only sort of made sense when the CN was still running the passenger trains, but now that they're not...

You can see, sort of, that Saskatoon's Via station is in pretty much the worst possible place.

 

[Urban Sky]

[sarcasm]Yes, I’m very confident that the same province which didn’t want to spare the pocket money which paid for a rather modest intercity bus service will spend the big bucks to restore intercity passenger rail service…[/sarcasm]

 

[danasgoodstuff]

[sarcasm]Yes, I’m very confident that the same province which didn’t want to spare the pocket money which paid for a rather modest intercity bus service will spend the big bucks to restore intercity passenger rail service…[/sarcasm]

Yes, I'm pretty sure it will take a change in governing party to get the province onboard with any expansion of passenger rail. I'm surprised the end of STC bus service wasn't an issue in the last provincial election. But the rural ridings seem wedded to the SK Party no matter what. Disclaimer, I know people active in the NDP in SK and elsewhere and one of the SK NDP MLAs is from a family whose older members I know quite well.

 

[Urban Sky]

Yes, I'm pretty sure it will take a change in governing party to get the province onboard with any expansion of passenger rail. I'm surprised the end of STC bus service wasn't an issue in the last provincial election. But the rural ridings seem wedded to the SK Party no matter what. Disclaimer, I know people active in the NDP in SK and elsewhere and one of the SK NDP MLAs is from a family whose older members I know quite well.

I don’t know, the only thing which seems to create any excitement in Central and Western Canada for the revival of intercity passenger services seems to be the expectation that federal (rather than: provincial) tax money would cover the costs…

 

[danasgoodstuff]

I don’t know, the only thing which seems to create any excitement in Central and Western Canada for the revival of intercity passenger services seems to be the expectation that federal (rather than: provincial) tax money would cover the costs…

I think that's true of the relation of states or provinces to the federal government pretty much everywhere, maybe just a little more in western Canada and maybe with a little variation in how much so across the political spectrum. An NDP provincial government would be a little more receptive, but I'm sure they would have bigger priorities than reviving passenger rail. Given that it's been a long time since there was anything approaching good service in the province.

 

[jiml]

I don’t know, the only thing which seems to create any excitement in Central and Western Canada for the revival of intercity passenger services seems to be the expectation that federal (rather than: provincial) tax money would cover the costs…

You're right, although part of the thought process must be why they shouldn't be the same as vote-rich Ontario (east of Toronto) and Quebec.

 

[Urban Sky]

You're right, although part of the thought process must be why they shouldn't be the same as vote-rich Ontario (east of Toronto) and Quebec.

Saskatoon and Regina are roughly the same size (150-300k CMA) as Peterborough, Trois-Rivières and Sherbrooke and they enjoy the same (Regina) or even less (Saskatoon) intercity passenger rail service level as/than all three of these cities located within the Quebec-Windsor Corridor…

 

[jiml]

Saskatoon and Regina are roughly the same size (150-300k CMA) as Peterborough, Trois-Rivières and Sherbrooke and they enjoy the same (Regina) or even less (Saskatoon) intercity passenger rail service levels as all three of these cities located within the Quebec-Windsor Corridor…

I'm not sure how 3 cities within a 90-minute drive of frequent VIA service are relevant to the situation in Saskatchewan. Heck, Peterborough even has a direct bus to the station. That said, I was simply agreeing with you about Saskatchewan voters looking for federal participation. I think intercity train services that operate wholly within one province should be a provincial responsibility, however most westerners would disagree.

 

[Willbridge]

Even if intraprovincial services are considered to be a provincial responsibility, the flimsy legal status of VIA Rail as a partner would make provincial leaders uneasy. Amtrak has some problems with its relations with states; VIA could have similar problems compounded by the arbitrary power of the PMO.

Saskatchewan would have to set up its own operating agency or contract entity and deal directly with CN and CPKC.

 

[jiml]

Saskatchewan would have to set up its own operating agency or contract entity and deal directly with CN and CPKC.

The precedent already exists.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

Given that the current governing party of SK shut down the STC bus service in 2017, it is unlikely that they would back new rail service, but that other party might very well support it. As I said above, I have shirt tail connections to the SK CCF/NDP and am a huge admirer of Tommy Douglas. Not at all sure how much support there would be for either new passenger rail service or a revived STC. I visit often enough to know it's not the province I used to live in.

 

[Urban Sky]

I'm not sure how 3 cities within a 90-minute drive of frequent VIA service are relevant to the situation in Saskatchewan. Heck, Peterborough even has a direct bus to the station. That said, I was simply agreeing with you about Saskatchewan voters looking for federal participation. I think intercity train services that operate wholly within one province should be a provincial responsibility, however most westerners would disagree.

My apologies for the very late reply. My point was that the example of these three cities proves that cities approximately the size of Saskatoon and Regina are not automatically guaranteed intercity rail service, even when they are located within the Quebec-Windsor Corridor. What matters is the distribution and total size of population centers served along potential intercity rail corridors - and that is where virtually all Canadian cities outside the Q-W Corridor (and even some in the Q-W Corridor itself!) are at a massive disadvantage…

 

[jiml]

My apologies for the very late reply. My point was that the example of these three cities proves that cities approximately the size of Saskatoon and Regina are not automatically guaranteed intercity rail service, even when they are located within the Quebec-Windsor Corridor. What matters is the distribution and total size of population centers served along potential intercity rail corridors - and that is where virtually all Canadian cities outside the Q-W Corridor (and even some in the Q-W Corridor itself!) are at a massive disadvantage…

Understood. Without straying too far off-topic, at least two of those cities you mentioned are slated to receive service if the billion-dollar reroute survives the budget cuts and the next election. Doesn't help Saskatchewan though.

 

[Urban Sky]

Understood. Without straying too far off-topic, at least two of those cities you mentioned are slated to receive service if the billion-dollar reroute survives the budget cuts and the next election. Doesn't help Saskatchewan though.

Indeed, but neither Trois-Riviéres nor Peterborough are end points (or considered major stops) along the HFR route. They are just lucky to be located along the most feasible dedicated (i.e. passenger-only) alignment between cities which actually count (and Saskatchewan sorely lacks)…

 

[Anderson]

Indeed, but neither Trois-Riviéres nor Peterborough are end points (or considered major stops) along the HFR route. They are just lucky to be located along the most feasible dedicated (i.e. passenger-only) alignment between cities which actually count (and Saskatchewan sorely lacks)…

I mean, Regina is probably "happily" located between Calgary and Winnipeg (and Red Deer is "happily" between Calgary and Edmonton on that front).

 

[danasgoodstuff]

For the benefit of those not familiar with where things are in SK, I think the dotted line south of Hwy 16 is the way the Canadian goes, so it misses the Battlefords, Yorkton, and Lloydminster. I think rail or at least row exists to reroute that way but I'm not sure how feasible it would be. None of which are huge but they are bigger than the towns on that route. But it might not be worth it since the current route is close enuff? An E-W train on the CP mainline would provide service to Regina, Moose Jaw, and Swift Current. And a Regina to Saskatoon (which together are half the population of the province) train could be extended to Prince Albert. I'm not sure demographics, geography, existing or readily restorable rail, or sanity would support anything more than that. And two daily transcontinentals and a daily N-S intraprovincial are probably a pipedream since there's still only about 1.2 million people in the whole darn province. I love SK and am glad I can take the train to Saskatoon at least, but substantially more passenger service is going to be a struggle.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

I believe this is a current or near current rail map for SK, the existing rail is meant to move grain and potash, not people, and limits what can reasonably be done.

 

[railiner]

I have also wondered why VIA Rail chose the CN route over the CP route for its remaining western service. I am thinking that it may have been for similar reasons Amtrak chose its former GN route over the more populated NP route across the west, because it served an area lacking a good highway and thru bus service as well as air service. Could be because VIA Rail was a creation of CN, and was staffed mainly by former CN officials. Could be for political reasons, as well...

 

[jiml]

I have also wondered why VIA Rail chose the CN route over the CP route for its remaining western service. I am thinking that it may have been for similar reasons Amtrak chose its former GN route over the more populated NP route across the west, because it served an area lacking a good highway and thru bus service as well as air service. Could be because VIA Rail was a creation of CN, and was staffed mainly by former CN officials. Could be for political reasons, as well...

You have most of the answer in your question regarding CN's role in VIA. It is also important to remember that CN wasn't fully privatized until 1992, so the government certainly had influence there that was lacking at CP. Of course CP was a willing participant in being relieved of its passenger services at the time.

In the ensuing years both railroads have seen multiple management and philosophy changes, and now it's CN that is likely the less passenger-friendly of the two. Both have lines that could be part of any rail revival in Saskatchewan, with conditions and conflicting usage being part of any discussion.

 

[MARC Rider]

I just looked at the imagery on Google maps at both the Route 11 corridor between Saskatoon and Regina and the corridors in Ontario and Quebec. Also looked at similar corridors in the US. There's a lot more suburban sprawl and built-up territory between the big-city endpoints in the eastern provinces than there is in Saskatchewan. In corridor service, intermediates stops provides as much business as the end-to end traffic. Once you get out of Saskatoon, there's basically empty country all the way to Regina. I suspect there's not a whole lot of traffic outside the cities, either, which would require any rail service to operate at at least 200 km/hr max (maybe 100-120 km/hr average) in order to be competitive with driving. But I don't see the business being there. If the province wants to support intercity public transit, they would probably be better with something the Colorado's Bustang bus service. It would be a lot cheaper to have frequent fast service between more points than just Saskatoon and Regina.

 

[Willbridge]

I just looked at the imagery on Google maps at both the Route 11 corridor between Saskatoon and Regina and the corridors in Ontario and Quebec. Also looked at similar corridors in the US. There's a lot more suburban sprawl and built-up territory between the big-city endpoints in the eastern provinces than there is in Saskatchewan. In corridor service, intermediates stops provides as much business as the end-to end traffic. Once you get out of Saskatoon, there's basically empty country all the way to Regina. I suspect there's not a whole lot of traffic outside the cities, either, which would require any rail service to operate at at least 200 km/hr max (maybe 100-120 km/hr average) in order to be competitive with driving. But I don't see the business being there. If the province wants to support intercity public transit, they would probably be better with something the Colorado's Bustang bus service. It would be a lot cheaper to have frequent fast service between more points than just Saskatoon and Regina.

Saskatchewan had the provincially-owned STC, similar to Colorado's Bustang, but at one time more comprehensive. It was started by a democratic socialist government and hated by Western Canadian Greyhound Lines, Ltd., so that even though there was little of either remaining when party control shifted to the right, it was a target.

In Summer 1974, when there still was a lot of rail passenger service in the Canadian Prairies, STC ran:

• Regina-Estavan-Carnduff-Gainsborough
• Regina-Melfort-Nipawin
• Saskatoon-Prince Albert-Hudson Bay
• Prince Albert-La Ronge
• Saskatoon-Biggar ("New York may be big, but this is...")-Unity
• Regina-Saskatoon-Prince Albert (2x express and 2x local)
• Saskatoon-Swift Current
• Saskatoon-Alsask-Calgary (cooperating on GLC in Alberta).
• Saskatoon-North Battleford-Meadow Lake
• North Battleford-Loon Lake
• North Battleford-Neilburg
• Regina-Yorkton-Preeceville
• Regina-Yorkton-Swan River
• Regina-Esterhazy
• Regina-Moose Jaw-Gravelbourg-Ponteix
• Regina-Moose Jaw-Coronach
• Prince Albert-Big River
• Saskatoon-Watson-Norquay
• Saskatoon-Watson-Canora-Yorkton
• Canora-Swan River
• Prince Albert-Nipawin-Arborfield
• Regina-Lanigan

GLC in that year ran 8 daily trips between Winnipeg and Regina on Trans-Canada schedules, plus some shorter turns. 7 continued to Calgary. Three Winnipeg - Edmonton trips ran the Yellowhead route to Edmonton through Yorkton and Saskatoon. One GLC trip made its way between Winnipeg and Regina via Redvers.

So, it was basically the same old story. The STC was focused on regional schedules into the three cities (Regina, Saskatoon and Prince Albert). GLC was focused on long-hauls and any service for Sask. was because it was in the middle. And most of GLC's business was scavenged from the CPR.

As a bonus in terms of different ways of seeing the world, GLC executive level decisions were being made in Phoenix. STC decisions were being made in Regina.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

Moose Jaw > Regina > Saskatoon > PA would give you the 4 biggest cities and 6 different segments. or you could construct some new rail and bridge the gap and go Regina > Moose Jaw > saskatoon > PA but I'm not sure there would be enuff advantage to doing that to make it worthwhile. Getting passenger service out of Chappel yard and back to the former CP station on the edge of downtown Saskatoon would be necessary to make any of this work. and itr would be a good excuse to put 22nd St. under the current grade crossing - In S'toon's weird numbering 22nd is the N/S divide on house numbers and the main E-W route on the west side of town. The CP crossing it at just above grade is a colossal pain.

 

[Urban Sky]

Moose Jaw > Regina > Saskatoon > PA would give you the 4 biggest cities and 6 different segments. or you could construct some new rail and bridge the gap and go Regina > Moose Jaw > saskatoon > PA but I'm not sure there would be enuff advantage to doing that to make it worthwhile. Getting passenger service out of Chappel yard and back to the former CP station on the edge of downtown Saskatoon would be necessary to make any of this work. and itr would be a good excuse to put 22nd St. under the current grade crossing - In S'toon's weird numbering 22nd is the N/S divide on house numbers and the main E-W route on the west side of town. The CP crossing it at just above grade is a colossal pain.

Given that a comparison of the per-timetable-km cost of Ontario Northland and VIA Rail suggests that the costs of operating rail services is at least 10 times that of a bus doing the same, the crucial question will always be what exactly such a rail service could possibly achieve what a bus couldn’t achieve at much lower cost (and most likely also: faster and more reliably)…