It looks like Penny and I were in the station and just never noticed one another. I was on 92; at about 11, I zapped my ticket and got a hotel. There were a few factors - the mounting meltdown was obviously high on the list, but the fact that my ability to make the RPA Board Meeting in person was dead (and that my roommate for the RPA conference pulled out at about 9, leaving me facing an unexpectedly large net hotel bill) was high on the list. I'm flying up on...Monday or Tuesday, depending on how the Chase booking system cooperates (or doesn't).
PTC "Server disruption" service issue (March 2023)
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The Southwest issue has been about as fully documented as one can expect, and it has zero to do with contract negotiations: Southwest Airlines operations meltdown (Dec 2022)
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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Welcome back! You make a very good point!Indeed, Jis. They make the regulations that govern the (non)movement of trains under these circumstances.
This is EXACTLY why the FRA has EVERYTHING to do with this mess and has been directly involved in why some train have actually been allowed to depart. What you're leaving out is not too long ago, regulations stated a train COULD depart an initial terminal with initialization or partial initialization failure, as long as the host railroad allowed it. It could also depart an initial or turnaround location that isn't designated a PTC repair point with initialization failure.
It was the FRA's ruling that stated a train can no longer depart with initialization failure. Indeed, they even changed the definition of "initial terminal" for PTC, which flies in the face of other applications of initial terminal (e.g. cab signals, brakes, non-running gear defects.) This is likely due to the fact that despite being told otherwise, the FRA probably assumed that if a piece of equipment fails to initialize, there must be something wrong with said piece of equipment.
Anyone that is actually out in the field and not sitting in an office knows this isn't the truth, and they were warned.
The best part of this is a train can depart with PTC COMPLETELY cut out/failed state in certain locations, but if it doesn't initialize in the same area, it can't move.
Example:
A MARC train operates from Washington DC to Perryville, Maryland and turns for another train. Since Perryville has no facilities, no mechanical forces and no other equipment to swap with, Perryville is considered a "turnaround location." Considering the circumstances, the trains were previously allowed to depart. Now, the current rules state that same train cannot depart Perryville with initialization failure even though there are no forces to correct the problem and no other equipment to swap with. Meanwhile, if the same train has outright PTC failure and is in cut out/failed state, the same train CAN depart Perryville under PTC failure rules....as long as it can be initialized.
This episode will certainly help the battle that has been raging between the FRA and various railroads that want this rule amended.
Jis and I were inside on a bench. I did not notice you. There were families sitting across from us and to our right. We were in the southeast area of the station. I’m only going to one day of the meeting. I may miss you.
I think the PTC issue was resolved since we are traveling at speed and even made up a few minutes.
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When an engineer initializes and logs in am I correct that they only load up their part of the route (until the next crew change point) then when another engineer takes over they have to do the start up process again for their section of the route. Have experienced PTC startup delays at crew change points so assumed that must be what they do.
It’s something a little more than zero. Let’s just say I have seen how these things work in the airline world, but I also don’t want to expound further, which would also get me into off topic territory.
jis
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The CSX PTC issue got resolved when the relief crew came on 27 miles west of KIS. They had no problem with PTC on SunRail.
You may not be having PTC issues (don't think the east coast has had much, if any issues), but PTC issues are still a problem in CA. Lots of "local" trains are again cancelled this morning.
No 350/351Wolverines this morning. Guessing they have equipment out of place after yesterday, since 371 is operating.
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It sounds like it has to do with the integration between Amtrak and the various roads PTC back office systems - so basically it’s host railroad by host railroad. The problem has been more consistent for certain roads out west and appears to be more intermittent in the east (with the roads like CSX and NS) for whatever reason.
Thirdrail7
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You are correct when you say they initialize their route to the next crew change.
This is due to what you stated about. The train is initialized for the route of the crew. Out west, this may involve more railroads than it does in the East.
Here are a few examples.
The southbound Auto Train wants to depart Lorton, VA and head south. Prior to departure, the crew that operates to Florence, NC would have to initialize on Amtrak and CSX since those are the railroads it will traverse on their trip.
The northbound Auto Train wants to depart Sanford, FL and head north. Prior to departure, the crew that operates to Florence, NC would have to initialize on Amtrak, CFCR and CSX, since those are the railroads it will traverse on their trip.
So far, so good over in the east. We're initializing on two or three railroads.
Now, lets take train the Cardinal.
The westbound Cardinal want to depart WAS and head west to CHI. Prior to departure, the crew that operates train 51 from Washington DC to Huntington, WV would have to initialize on Amtrak, BBRR and CSX, since those are the railroads it will traverse on their trip. Once again, we're working with two or three railroads for a huge portion of the trip.
The eastbound Cardinal wants to depart Chicago and head east to WAS. Someone will correct me if I'm off with my count, but prior to departing CHI, the crew that operates to Indianapolis would have to initialize (in no particular order) on Amtrak, Metra, UP, CSX, NS and CN, while underground. These are the railroads the crew will traverse for their portion of the trip.
The Wolverines would have to initialize on at least 5 railroads for their trip. What I'm trying to say is it make a lot of sense that trains leaving Chicago would have a much harder time since they touch more railroads than the trains on the coasts. This is also why the lack of "partial initialization" is problematic. If the train doesn't initialize due to a problem with one railroad, you can attempt to initialize without that railroad. However, it becomes of a big issue if the railroad is the first one you'll encounter.
Going back to the Auto Train and its cancelation, the problem is if northbound 52 runs into initializing issues with CFCR, it doesn't matter if CSX initializes properly. This is because the CFCR is the first railroad it will encounter. This is a tiny portion of the trip and under the current FRA interpretation, the train is not allowed to leave. Meanwhile, 53 is initialized in Lorton and ready to go south and (as I understand) may not initialize on CFCR at the crew change at Florence. Yet, it could leave since by the time it entered CFCR territory, it would be considered "en route," so as long as host rules allowed it, the train would proceed at a reduced speed.
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Thanks for the great explanation.
Our EB trip to Seattle was cancelled 2 days in a row so we flew out last night. Amtrak staff (and would be passengers) at US Chicago were great and we were put in a nice hotel but their tech sector is an abysmal disgrace.
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I’m just getting so worried about CZ westbound on Tuesday. I know we just have no way to know when this is going to be resolved, right?
No way of been 100% sure of anything. Weekend problem seem to get fixed on Mondays though.
trimetbusfan
OBS Chief
Looks like things are getting better. #5 (26) and #21 (26) left Chicago right on time. Hiawathas are also running.
This is amazing news!
west point
Engineer
first question is where is the equipment that will arrive CHI Monday afternoon? as of now it is at Green River on the route from Salt Lake and Denver, 3 - 4 hours late. There of course is possibility that another set stranded in CHI could be used.
Yeah it going to be a mess get all this equipment back in service. Chicago has two LSL in the yard. Going to hot swap one in Albany maybe?
Someone is going to earning there paycheck straightening this out.
Someone is going to earning there paycheck straightening this out.
trimetbusfan
OBS Chief
I think Tuesdays departure is looking very likely (knock on wood).
It’s still heading toward California, not away from it?
I see #3, 5, 7, and 21 are all outbound from CHI this afternoon. (1340 hours PDT Sunday on transitdocs)
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trimetbusfan
OBS Chief
It’s heading away from California. Should arrive Chicago Monday afternoon. But they also have an extra zephyr set in Chicago so they should be able to run it out on Tuesday regardless.
We always like to have contingency plans worked out ahead of time should we ever need them. If we’re in Chicago and our westbound SWC to LA is cancelled, we’ll probably choose to fly back since the chance of getting another sleeping car bedroom anytime soon will be virtually nil. (We’re no longer up to making a long-distance train trip in coach or a roomette.) Would Amtrak put us up in a hotel the first day? What other assistance would they provide in helping us make our airlines reservations and/or get to the airport from CUS? What is the usual cab fare from CUS to the airport? Thanks in advance for your suggestions and advice.
Eric & Pat
dadonatrain
Service Attendant
Too soon to tell, of course, but I’m booked on the Palmetto 90 out of Savannah Monday April 3. I have not heard so far that trains like that have had this pblm but I do watch the Folkston railcam and last night I heard a lot of chat that some trains to/from FL were having issues. Has anyone else heard of pblms along the east coast south of Washington DC?
