PTC Showdown approaching (resolved)

[Palmetto]

The title of this thread should be changed, don't you think?

 

[PRR 60]

The title of this thread should be changed, don't you think?

I do, and it's done. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[CHamilton]

Resolved, but only temporarily. See the NARP blog for more. http://narprail.org/news/blog/congress-extends-deadline-for-train-safety-technology-well-find-out-why-on-nov-20/

 

[PRR 60]

Resolved, but only temporarily. See the NARP blog for more. http://narprail.org/news/blog/congress-extends-deadline-for-train-safety-technology-well-find-out-why-on-nov-20/

Not withstanding NARP's Amtrak advocacy position, the December 31, 2015 deadline for Positive Train Control has been extended to December 31, 2018. The immediate threat to rail service has been resolved.

I'd also like to know how they come up with "a total of 288 deaths and 6,574 people injured since the NTSB first issued its call (for PTC in 1970)." Have there really been that many casualties in rail accidents that could have been prevented by PTC since then? Are they including grade crossing accidents that would not be prevented by PTC? Are they including accidents like Big Bayou Canot that also would not have been prevented by PTC? NARP does not do themselves or their supporters any favors by citing false and misleading facts to support their advocacy. They come off as shrill and uninformed.

 

[jis]

What I find fascinating is that we keep complaining about "special interest carve outs" while asking for exactly the same thing for our interest. I don't understand how we can be on a solid ground asking for anything if we are opposed to "special interest carve outs". Just a confused me I guess.

 

[neroden]

Are they including accidents like Big Bayou Canot that also would not have been prevented by PTC?

Positive Barge Control would have prevented that. To be fair to the NTSB, they basically called for that too, and if I remember correctly, it's actually been implemented -- no more barges wandering around lost in the fog.

 

[neroden]

So it's back to keeping track of how the various railroads are doing. I expect most of them will make the 2018 deadline.

Any bets on who won't? I'm thinking MBTA and Pan Am have serious problems. The other NEC agencies seem to be in fairly good shape for a 2018 deadline, and the West Coast agencies are in even better shape. Metra will probably be rushing to make the deadline but I think they'll make it.

 

[jis]

MARC and VRE just have to equip their locomotives and cab cars with one or two systems, so that should not take them all that much time. SEPTA is more or less done already. NJT, LIRR and MNRR are scheduled to be done well before 2018. Actually at NJT Shirley DeLibero had originated a program for installing ASES after a collision in the meadows, but NJ Legislature and Governors made sure that no progress was made until their butts got kicked by the PTC deadline.

Shore Line East like MARC has to install ACSES on a few locos and cab cars. MBTA has a whole host of trackage to equip. More interesting question is what is happening in PanAm territory that the Downeaster runs on. Amtrak should be done installing ACSES between POU and Hoffmans. I suppose engines running through to the west will need to be equipped with both ACSES and I-ETMS?

I have heard that NS and/or CSX is funding the installation of I-ETMS in addition to ACSES on the NEC between Davis and Bayview (between Wilmington and Baltimore) so that they can run any of their equipment to the two yards of interest after coming down the Port Road. Maybe someone like Thirdrail and verify or refute based on more reliable info that they may have.

I am curious as to upto what highest max speed I-ETMS has been certified anywhere.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Shore Line East all cab cars and locomotives are equipped with ACSES, as New Haven to Boston has been active for years.

 

[west point]

What should be a worry. Almost all software and firmware in the IT networks become obsolete within ten years. What happens if it is true for PTC ? At least the Amtrak / PRR system has lasted for what 60+ years ?

 

[jis]

That is why the entire art of software updates on the fly was invented. Heck we have successfully done that to the deep space probes. Should not be an issue with devices that are network connected, which most components of PTC are. But even beyond that, it is fully expected that there will be wholesale updates of hardware technology as time goes on too. Some of that you already sse, like the ACSES transponders, they have already gone through two generations of technology update in the last 15 years. So no, it is not a worry. It is planned for.

Think telephone network. they have continued to work pretty transparently while all the switching technology has changed out three times or more. Heck I worked through about 2 times of that at Bell Labs in 12 years, and even hold a small patent for a part of one of those in the area of distributed digital switching control algorithms. One of the huge things that happened back then was conversion from analog (loop start and ground start) to digital (T1, T2, T3, T4) trunks, and analog to digital switches. Unless you were in the industry you wouldn't have a clue and would know nothing about it. Of course, since then there has been wholesale conversion to optical fiber, and again the lay user has known nothing about it.

 

[Thirdrail7]

MARC and VRE just have to equip their locomotives and cab cars with one or two systems, so that should not take them all that much time. SEPTA is more or less done already. NJT, LIRR and MNRR are scheduled to be done well before 2018. Actually at NJT Shirley DeLibero had originated a program for installing ASES after a collision in the meadows, but NJ Legislature and Governors made sure that no progress was made until their butts got kicked by the PTC deadline.

Shore Line East like MARC has to install ACSES on a few locos and cab cars. MBTA has a whole host of trackage to equip. More interesting question is what is happening in PanAm territory that the Downeaster runs on. Amtrak should be done installing ACSES between POU and Hoffmans. I suppose engines running through to the west will need to be equipped with both ACSES and I-ETMS?

I have heard that NS and/or CSX is funding the installation of I-ETMS in addition to ACSES on the NEC between Davis and Bayview (between Wilmington and Baltimore) so that they can run any of their equipment to the two yards of interest after coming down the Port Road. Maybe someone like Thirdrail and verify or refute based on more reliable info that they may have.

I am curious as to upto what highest max speed I-ETMS has been certified anywhere.

I believe NS and CSX have ACSES equipped engines at this time. P&W engines are also equipped and I think some NJT equipment is ACSES ready.

 

[west point]

JIS Bell labs always back engineered every advancement. Have 1920's Bell equipment that still works with present day equipment. IMO Unfortunately our present software & hardware engineers do not have that perfection.

 

[jis]

JIS Bell labs always back engineered every advancement. Have 1920's Bell equipment that still works with present day equipment. IMO Unfortunately our present software & hardware engineers do not have that perfection.

I think you are too pessimistic. I continue to be one of those engineers that continues in the work of creating and implementing backward compatible interface and communication standards when necessary. Things just have to match up at the interfaces. What they do elsewhere does not matter.

 

[neroden]

The Class Is will probably all make the 2018 deadline, though I expect BNSF to get there first. The really little passenger railroads (Sound Transit, etc.) mostly seem to be ready to go but waiting for the class Is to work out the I-ETMS details.

So really I guess the ones to watch are the MBTA and Pan Am, which are way behind the curve.

 

[John Bredin]

I would therefore expect Congress to dither and filibuster well past the date of the fund running out. Remember what they did with the "debt limit" ceiling? Three times? They've also allowed certain "must pass" tax policies, like the "AMT patch" to expire in the fall, and then reinstated them retroactively before April 15 -- many times. It's no way to run a government, but it's the government we've had most of my life.

And Congress did not make the last (beginning of 2015) "patch" of the parity between the transit and parking fringe benefit at all.* They did it late the previous time, at the beginning of 2014, but I guess this time it wasn't a "must pass." :angry2:

*In a nutshell for those who don't know: under the Internal Revenue Code, a taxpayer can use a certain amount of pre-tax dollars per month for parking or transit for work commuting. The underlying law has twice the amount for parking as for transit, but Congress had until 2015 annually passed a one-year-only "patch" law making them equal at the higher number. Now, the monthly benefit is $250 for parking but only $130 for transit. My monthly Metra pass -- and I live in a relatively inner suburb (D zone, with downtown as A and the farthest zone in the system being M) -- is over $20 more than that.