Rail returning to Phoenix
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jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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The Sunset was never in the running for extension to Florida in the proposal that was put forth by Amtrak to the Southern Rail Commission. That is the point I was making.
See http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5302778ee4b07a6f640874ef/t/5670735bd8af10d0d84e4965/1450210139160/Gulf+Coast+Initiative+Report+2015.pdf
See http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5302778ee4b07a6f640874ef/t/5670735bd8af10d0d84e4965/1450210139160/Gulf+Coast+Initiative+Report+2015.pdf
WoodyinNYC
Conductor
These timetables always slip. No big cause for alarm.
We've heard that talks with CSX have not gone well at all. It's the opening stages, of course, so maybe it will get worked out over time.
Meanwhile, Washington is almost in chaos. Until things get sorted out, it's hard to make any progress. That could follow the 2018 Congressional election, or later. Until then, we're lucky Amtrak hasn't taken a much bigger hit than just the restored Gulf Coast service being postponed.
Not least, when Amtrak promised it could find Superliner equipment needed for the City of New Orleans extension, we all expected to see new bi-levels come from Nippon-Sharyo. So Amtrak expected a few freed-up Superliners, and a lot of freed-up Horizon cars. The Horizons then could replace Superliners here and there. (The Heartland Flyer uses some. The Sunset Shuttle New Orleans-Houston-San Antonio could use Horizons after the Texas Eagle and Sunset Ltd combine to run daily CHI-San Antonio-L.A.)
So don't panic, but expect delays.
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There is a theme here of "why doesn't Amtrak management...?" The reality today and in the foreseeable future is that any service to Phoenix (or anywhere else for that matter) is going to cost a huge amount of money to establish the service, and the service will continue to suck money as it will not be able to generate enough money from fares to cover operating costs much less repay the start up costs.
So passenger rail has to be subsidized by taxes, as a perceived public benefit, as are all passenger and some freight modes of transportation including cars, trucks, airplanes, barges, ships.
As a national, interstate service, Amtrak is a federal concern and the responsibility of Congress.
Using the principals of management, condensed to a firefighters short attention span by Alan Brunacini (former Fire Chief of Phoenix)
1. Tell your people what you want them to do. Has congress provided Amtrak with a measurable and achievable set of goals... Ha!
2. Give them the tools to do the job. Funding for ample cars, locomotives, stations, tunnels etc... Ha!
3. Train them to use the tools to do the job. Amtrak has pretty much handled this itself.
4. Get the H@!! out of their way. If Congress could do that it would not be Congress!
5. Tell them how they did. Without # 1 this is an instant fail!
Given the lack of direction and funding by Congress, Amtrak's management has been and should continue finding the best results for what limited resources they have been given. While we can argue about a lot of decisions putting the SL through Phoenix is not going to be very high on Managements long long list.
So passenger rail has to be subsidized by taxes, as a perceived public benefit, as are all passenger and some freight modes of transportation including cars, trucks, airplanes, barges, ships.
As a national, interstate service, Amtrak is a federal concern and the responsibility of Congress.
Using the principals of management, condensed to a firefighters short attention span by Alan Brunacini (former Fire Chief of Phoenix)
1. Tell your people what you want them to do. Has congress provided Amtrak with a measurable and achievable set of goals... Ha!
2. Give them the tools to do the job. Funding for ample cars, locomotives, stations, tunnels etc... Ha!
3. Train them to use the tools to do the job. Amtrak has pretty much handled this itself.
4. Get the H@!! out of their way. If Congress could do that it would not be Congress!
5. Tell them how they did. Without # 1 this is an instant fail!
Given the lack of direction and funding by Congress, Amtrak's management has been and should continue finding the best results for what limited resources they have been given. While we can argue about a lot of decisions putting the SL through Phoenix is not going to be very high on Managements long long list.
fredmcain
Service Attendant
Karl,
Here is what I just posted on another forum. I am reposting it here 'cause it kinda touches on what you're saying. Regarding your comments on Congress, that is kinda what NARP has been saying for years.
"I think what you might be getting at here and, if so, I’d agree with wholeheartedly, is that moving the main Sunset Limited (SL) Phoenix stop to the remote location of Maricopa may have been more psychologically damaging than anything else.
Amtrak’s own statistics seem to show that ridership on the SL dipped after the change was made although I have not been able to secure the exact statistics.
The greater Phoenix area was, behind L.A. and Houston, probably the biggest market on the whole route. I should also add that before the SL got booted off the Phoenix sub, it stopped at BOTH Phoenix and Tempe. Tempe, especially, was a nice place to wait for a train and convenient to the uppity bedroom communities of Scottsdale, Tempe & Mesa.
It was kind of a sad tale that the community fought a long, hard, valiant battle to get an Amtrak stop and I believe even raised local funds to rehab the SPT Co’s old depot there. Amtrak really dragged their feet on this. Timetables for several years indicated that service to Tempe would begin on a date “to be announced”.
Tempe’s efforts finally paid off (or, so they thought at the time). Tempe was established as a stop but then was only used for a few years until the SL had to vacate the Phoenix sub altogether.
When the West Phoenix line finally gets reopened (and I’m hopeful it will) don’t expect Amtrak to jump back on there right away. Many of the things Amtrak does seem to move at a snail’s pace – if at all.
In fact, I’ll go out on a limb here: I suspect that getting Amtrak back on the Phoenix sub could well turn out to be more difficult and problematic than getting the Arlington-Roll segment rehabbed and reopened. Yeah, that’s right! I hope I’m wrong but……."
Here is what I just posted on another forum. I am reposting it here 'cause it kinda touches on what you're saying. Regarding your comments on Congress, that is kinda what NARP has been saying for years.
"I think what you might be getting at here and, if so, I’d agree with wholeheartedly, is that moving the main Sunset Limited (SL) Phoenix stop to the remote location of Maricopa may have been more psychologically damaging than anything else.
Amtrak’s own statistics seem to show that ridership on the SL dipped after the change was made although I have not been able to secure the exact statistics.
The greater Phoenix area was, behind L.A. and Houston, probably the biggest market on the whole route. I should also add that before the SL got booted off the Phoenix sub, it stopped at BOTH Phoenix and Tempe. Tempe, especially, was a nice place to wait for a train and convenient to the uppity bedroom communities of Scottsdale, Tempe & Mesa.
It was kind of a sad tale that the community fought a long, hard, valiant battle to get an Amtrak stop and I believe even raised local funds to rehab the SPT Co’s old depot there. Amtrak really dragged their feet on this. Timetables for several years indicated that service to Tempe would begin on a date “to be announced”.
Tempe’s efforts finally paid off (or, so they thought at the time). Tempe was established as a stop but then was only used for a few years until the SL had to vacate the Phoenix sub altogether.
When the West Phoenix line finally gets reopened (and I’m hopeful it will) don’t expect Amtrak to jump back on there right away. Many of the things Amtrak does seem to move at a snail’s pace – if at all.
In fact, I’ll go out on a limb here: I suspect that getting Amtrak back on the Phoenix sub could well turn out to be more difficult and problematic than getting the Arlington-Roll segment rehabbed and reopened. Yeah, that’s right! I hope I’m wrong but……."
Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
Maybe we should focus on initiatives that are likely to have broad appeal among a large number of activists and passengers (such as a daily SL between LAX and SAS/NOL) rather than targeting niche issues that provide a rather limited benefit to a relatively small number of people at great expense (such as moving from Maricopa to Phoenix). I live along the Sunset route and I have friends in Phoenix, in theory I'd be a big proponent of having Amtrak in Phoenix proper, but when I choose other forms of transit between us it's not because the train only stops in Maricopa. It's because the train only runs every few days in the middle of the night.
One of the biggest stumbling blocks preventing daily SL operation is UP's one-time schedule change fees. Perhaps those fees have come down a bit from the absurd amounts demanded previously, possibly all the way down to something semi reasonable, although I somewhat doubt that. Keeping the SL at a less than daily frequency is the easiest way to undermine current support levels and jeopardize future use. Another major impediment to taking the SL daily is a continuing lack of sufficient hardware. This includes rolling stock that was supposed to eventually be released for new uses as a result of the multiple state bi-level order that has apparently been lost to the ravages of time and space. In the years since the SL East was discontinued numerous examples of previously wrecked cars were repaired with special funds and then re-wrecked all over again thanks to commercial vehicle operators suffering from a case of cowboy logic. One step forward, two steps back.
One of the biggest stumbling blocks preventing daily SL operation is UP's one-time schedule change fees. Perhaps those fees have come down a bit from the absurd amounts demanded previously, possibly all the way down to something semi reasonable, although I somewhat doubt that. Keeping the SL at a less than daily frequency is the easiest way to undermine current support levels and jeopardize future use. Another major impediment to taking the SL daily is a continuing lack of sufficient hardware. This includes rolling stock that was supposed to eventually be released for new uses as a result of the multiple state bi-level order that has apparently been lost to the ravages of time and space. In the years since the SL East was discontinued numerous examples of previously wrecked cars were repaired with special funds and then re-wrecked all over again thanks to commercial vehicle operators suffering from a case of cowboy logic. One step forward, two steps back.
Did you actually contact Amtrak and/or review relevant documentation or did you start with a narrative and simply work backward from your conclusion? If you play fast and loose with the facts you'll be a hero in the Amtrak echo chamber but risk being eaten alive by the opposition when push comes to shove. Better safe than sorry and all that.
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west point
Engineer
How long and when was there a 4 trip SAS <> LAX using the Eagle from SAS ? Might affect ridership numbers. Maybe Amtrak could consider 4 days a week extending the Eagle in conjunction with the 3 times a week Sunset ? All depends on what ridership is ?
neroden
Engineer
Or a daily Cardinal, or getting South of the Lake built to expedite Chicago-(Indiana,Michigan,Ohio,New York,Massachusetts,West Virginia,Pennsylvania,Maryland,DC,Kentucky,Tennessee,Virginia) service...
brianpmcdonnell17
Conductor
Was there ever a consideration of expanding the South Shore Line and moving Amtrak onto that line? As of now, capacity is also a limiting factor there in the number of trains that can reach all the way to South Bend.
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Metra Electric Rider
Engineer
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Is the street running in Michigan City gone completely yet (I can't remember anymore)? I think that it's single track between Michigan City and South Bend (correct me if I'm wrong) and the connections to Union would be harder (I guess you could connect it to CN before it meets, as it crosses the CN tracks, Metra's tracks). I think that there's a lot more to it than that. They do run very closely or have, in some areas.
fredmcain
Service Attendant
"Is the street running in Michigan City gone completely yet (I can't remember anymore)?"
I live in northeastern Indiana and ride the South Shore line from time to time. There has been a lot of on again, off again, on again discussion about bypassing the street running in Michigan City (MC) but to the best of my knowledge, nothing has been etched in stone yet - kinda like restoring Amtrak service to Phoenix. They have now improved the track and installed CTC all the way east to a location near what the railroad refers to as "Bendex" just a couple or three miles west of the end of the line at South Bend Airport.
Along with bypassing M.C. there has also been rumors about a new entrance to the airport that would replace the side-of-the-road, numerous grade crossings and circuitous "hook" that the current line uses to enter the airport but I don't expect either of these plans to take shape in the immediate future. In fact, the last plan I heard about for M.C. would keep the tracks in the current location but segregate them from traffic somehow - don't have the details in front of me.
There is, however, another competing plan moving forward that would construct a new South Shore branch to Dyer, IN utilizing part of the abandoned Monon right of way. There has been a lot of discussion as to whether this new line would be electric or diesel. I'm not sure if that issue has been decided or not.
A number of years ago I wrote a letter to the editor of the Goshen, IN news suggesting that the South Shore line should be extended to Elkhart and then on through to Goshen. My article was very well received by the general public and it might actually come to pass someday but I don't expect to see it in my lifetime.
I live in northeastern Indiana and ride the South Shore line from time to time. There has been a lot of on again, off again, on again discussion about bypassing the street running in Michigan City (MC) but to the best of my knowledge, nothing has been etched in stone yet - kinda like restoring Amtrak service to Phoenix. They have now improved the track and installed CTC all the way east to a location near what the railroad refers to as "Bendex" just a couple or three miles west of the end of the line at South Bend Airport.
Along with bypassing M.C. there has also been rumors about a new entrance to the airport that would replace the side-of-the-road, numerous grade crossings and circuitous "hook" that the current line uses to enter the airport but I don't expect either of these plans to take shape in the immediate future. In fact, the last plan I heard about for M.C. would keep the tracks in the current location but segregate them from traffic somehow - don't have the details in front of me.
There is, however, another competing plan moving forward that would construct a new South Shore branch to Dyer, IN utilizing part of the abandoned Monon right of way. There has been a lot of discussion as to whether this new line would be electric or diesel. I'm not sure if that issue has been decided or not.
A number of years ago I wrote a letter to the editor of the Goshen, IN news suggesting that the South Shore line should be extended to Elkhart and then on through to Goshen. My article was very well received by the general public and it might actually come to pass someday but I don't expect to see it in my lifetime.
cirdan
Engineer
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I must admit my last (and first) visit to Michigan City was in 2011. I went at the time because I though relocation would imminent so i wanted to experience the old arrangement before it vanished.
it turns out my haste was not necessary.
My overall impression was that the NICTD was an efficiently operated system, very clean, orderly and punctual. I was very impressed.
We stayed in a bed and breakfast in Michigan City, and during the three days or so we were there we got to see many parts of the city. My impression is that many parts of the city were very run down. Some parts were Ok but in others we felt decidedly unconfortable. Lots of abandoned houses and clear signs of economic downturn. Despite that we also clearly saw that the city isn't about to give up but is working hard to reverse the decline, and some parts had been refurbished. In a situation like that I imagine the location of NICTD line and station are not just an issue of transportation but can become a catalyst for regeneration of an entire neighborhood. Get it right and the returns can be susbtantial, get it wrong and you bring a struggling town even closer to the brink.
it turns out my haste was not necessary.
My overall impression was that the NICTD was an efficiently operated system, very clean, orderly and punctual. I was very impressed.
We stayed in a bed and breakfast in Michigan City, and during the three days or so we were there we got to see many parts of the city. My impression is that many parts of the city were very run down. Some parts were Ok but in others we felt decidedly unconfortable. Lots of abandoned houses and clear signs of economic downturn. Despite that we also clearly saw that the city isn't about to give up but is working hard to reverse the decline, and some parts had been refurbished. In a situation like that I imagine the location of NICTD line and station are not just an issue of transportation but can become a catalyst for regeneration of an entire neighborhood. Get it right and the returns can be susbtantial, get it wrong and you bring a struggling town even closer to the brink.
fredmcain
Service Attendant
So, to reiterate and reflect back over and summarize this topic, will Amtrak ever return to Phoenix?
I would like to review what I think we know, what we clearly don’t know and what I personally happen to know.
First of all, based on the testimony of a Mr. Stanley Jefferson from Litchfield Park, AZ, he has stated that he was informed by the UP signal department that the UP had begun preliminary procedures to reopen the Phoenix West line back in 2013. Working west from near downtown Phoenix, the UP began replacing signals and rehabilitating the automatic block signal system. They worked their way west to about a mile west of a point known as “Crag” on the railroad which is nearly halfway between Arlington and Hyder.
Then, mysteriously, the worked was halted in its tracks (no pun intended).
That brings me to what we don’t know. WHY did the UP order this work done and WHY did they turn around and order it stopped. We just plain don’t know. I have a couple of good theories but why speculate when we really don’t have the facts?
This brings me, finally, to what I do know. There are at present AT LEAST five (count ‘em, 5) politically-oriented entities fighting to get this line rehabbed and reopened. I stress at LEAST because there could well be more than five – but those are the only ones I am aware of.
The focus on two of these groups is to get the Sunset Limited rerouted back into the Phoenix area proper as well as get is changed to a daily operation.
While the other three groups recognize this as well, they are also focused on the economic development that they believe a reopened Phoenix West Line would spark.
There are two groups whose presence on this short list is conspicuous by their absence: Amtrak and Union Pacific. Amtrak appears to be ambivalent at best and we really don't know what the UP's intentions are other than "keep it for future development/transportation".
But, in conclusion, I guess I feel that there is enough of a push on to get this done that I’m optimistic that it will happen. I just can’t say when. I don’t think any of can.
I would like to review what I think we know, what we clearly don’t know and what I personally happen to know.
First of all, based on the testimony of a Mr. Stanley Jefferson from Litchfield Park, AZ, he has stated that he was informed by the UP signal department that the UP had begun preliminary procedures to reopen the Phoenix West line back in 2013. Working west from near downtown Phoenix, the UP began replacing signals and rehabilitating the automatic block signal system. They worked their way west to about a mile west of a point known as “Crag” on the railroad which is nearly halfway between Arlington and Hyder.
Then, mysteriously, the worked was halted in its tracks (no pun intended).
That brings me to what we don’t know. WHY did the UP order this work done and WHY did they turn around and order it stopped. We just plain don’t know. I have a couple of good theories but why speculate when we really don’t have the facts?
This brings me, finally, to what I do know. There are at present AT LEAST five (count ‘em, 5) politically-oriented entities fighting to get this line rehabbed and reopened. I stress at LEAST because there could well be more than five – but those are the only ones I am aware of.
The focus on two of these groups is to get the Sunset Limited rerouted back into the Phoenix area proper as well as get is changed to a daily operation.
While the other three groups recognize this as well, they are also focused on the economic development that they believe a reopened Phoenix West Line would spark.
There are two groups whose presence on this short list is conspicuous by their absence: Amtrak and Union Pacific. Amtrak appears to be ambivalent at best and we really don't know what the UP's intentions are other than "keep it for future development/transportation".
But, in conclusion, I guess I feel that there is enough of a push on to get this done that I’m optimistic that it will happen. I just can’t say when. I don’t think any of can.
Anthony V
Lead Service Attendant
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One can only hope they finish the rehab of the West Line and allow Amtrak to return to Phoenix.
MikefromCrete
Engineer
If and when, the west line out of Phoenix is restored to service it won't be because of the Sunset Limited. Either some big industrial, mining or military facility that requires extensive rail freight service will locate on the line or Arizona will establish a commuter rail line serving Phoenix or start a multiple-train a day service between L.A.., Phoenix and Tucson. Even a daily Sunset won't be enough to restart that lengthy stretch of track.
fredmcain
Service Attendant
Mike,
This, I believe is probably true. I think you're right about this.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
In reading the discussion about passenger rail returning to Phoenix; we obviously won't be able to convince Washington to expand Amtrak service to all major cities any time soon. There is undoubtedly demand for rail service in cities without Amtrak service and IMO this opens the door to state funded commuter lines to develop. Many cities already have nice rail stations and many remain unused.. If the political will is there these cities can connect to an Amtrak main line with commuter or regional rail. Perhaps that is the answer to getting rail service back to Cheyenne, Sioux Falls, Nashville, Louisville, Boise, Sioux City, Augusta, and other cities.
fredmcain
Service Attendant
You know, I don't understand *WHY* some of these new services have to be so darned expensive. It makes it really hard to expand service to anywhere. I have a couple of cases in point:
A few years ago Congress passed legislation mandating Amtrak to at least study the restoration of rail service over the former Northern Pacific Railway line across southern North Dakota and Southern Montana. This line actually had Amtrak service until around 1978. Well, Amtrak "studied" then came back to Congress with a price tag of over well over $2 BILLION ! I was shocked. Two BILLION, for what? Of course Congress wasn't about to pony up that kind of money to restore service on that line. I mean, the tracks were there (and in fairly good shape at that) and there were automatic block signals throughout. Most of the stations were still there although they would probably need some minor refurbishing. Would that add up to 2 billion? New equipment? Maybe. But even allowing for 2 million per new superliner car it's hard to see how that ran up to 2 billion. Somebody please enlighten me here.
Case # 2: Amtrak approached Union Pacific about converting train numbers 1 & 2 the Sunset Limited to daily operation. Well, the UP came up with a similar figure. Huh? That was the UP coming up with that instead of Amtrak, BUT!
What both of these cases (and there are more examples) have in common is that both the UP and Amtrak possibly just didn't want to do this so they intentionally came up with some highly bloated figures.
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong but as a passenger rail supporter I have to admit I'm getting very discouraged. We still have the same, overly-skeletalized "system" that we started out with in 1971. We have newer, better equipment but not more extensive service. There have been a few bright spots in California, North Carolina,Oklahoma and Maine but weighted against those is the loss of the North Coast Ltd, a third New York-Florida train, the "Lone Star", the "Floridian", the Desert Wind & the Pioneer.
Depressing and discouraging indeed in my view.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
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west point
Engineer
Over-skeletonized system is a very good analogy. Can we use it ? That may be the case since Amtrak is so short of equipment to properly provide LD service. That is enough equipment on present trains and multiple services.
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