Really - How much could a new coach cost?

[user 1215]

OK, so they delivered the first of 64ish coaches to be refurbished with stimulus cash - only using a pawltry $80M of the $1.5M promised. That's about $1.2M each to refurbish an Amcan. How much would a new coach cost? If Colorado Railcar were still in existence (which I think they are in some form or fashion), powered DMUs were going for around $2M each. I figure they could probably build a nice, comfortable coach for little more than half of that...

 

[stntylr]

The numbers I've seen for the Superliner II's are 140 costing 340 million in 1993. Which means each car cost a little over 2.4 million dollars in 1993 money.

 

[MikeM]

If Colorado Railcar were still in existence (which I think they are in some form or fashion), powered DMUs were going for around $2M each. I figure they could probably build a nice, comfortable coach for little more than half of that...

Big difference in construction quality, however. Colorado Railcar built out of steel, which has that nasty habit of rusting. All of the Amfleet, ugly though they may be, are built out of stainless steel, which means they'll be with us for a long time, at least until metal fatigue sets in at some future distant point.

But I'm with you on why don't we buy more cars. I think I read that there are 20 cars in Beach Grove pending rebuild which I'd guess would be superliners, then what Bear has for single level cars. Not really enough to fill in the holes in the Amtrak route map with converting tri-weekly trains to daily, some capacity increases in LD trains, maybe adding a few additional routes. I would think restarting a Bombardier line to build more superliners would be a very effective stimilus myself...

 

[the_traveler]

I would think restarting a Bombardier line to build more superliners would be a very effective stimilus myself...

I'm with you! Although it's not the same, with many auto plants closing down and with unemployment near or above 10%, I think reopening some plants and hiring workers to build new and better cars would be a good stimulus!

 

[jis]

I would think restarting a Bombardier line to build more superliners would be a very effective stimilus myself...

I'm with you! Although it's not the same, with many auto plants closing down and with unemployment near or above 10%, I think reopening some plants and hiring workers to build new and better cars would be a good stimulus!

But there is already an active line at Alstom building Surfliners. Is another line really required at Bombardier, specially when all that Amtrak plans to order near term are 100 and something bilevel commuter/short distance cars like say..... Surfliners?

 

[transit54]

I would think restarting a Bombardier line to build more superliners would be a very effective stimilus myself...

I'm with you! Although it's not the same, with many auto plants closing down and with unemployment near or above 10%, I think reopening some plants and hiring workers to build new and better cars would be a good stimulus!

But there is already an active line at Alstom building Surfliners. Is another line really required at Bombardier, specially when all that Amtrak plans to order near term are 100 and something bilevel commuter/short distance cars like say..... Surfliners?

I wouldn't mind having two competing manufactuers in the United States...and I especially wouldn't mind seeing Bombardier reopen their Barre, VT plant, which produced the Acelas and a number of subway and light rail cars. Though I think part of that plant is now occupied by a wind turbine manufacturer.

Where is Alstrom's plant located?

 

[MikeM]

Didn't realize the Surfliners were still in production. Are they made in the states, or Canada? I've ridden them in California, they are nice cars, pretty comfortable, although last year the ones I rode looked pretty bedraggled. Again, time for typical refurb.

BTW, if you haven't read the California zephyer / Coast starlight travelogue that recently went up, might be worth a gander. Peeling paint in the shower room, observation car, the bathroom of the bedroom car looked like it needed repair of leaks, torn curtains, etc. Amtrak needs to look at expanding new purchases so it can pull some of the rolling refuse out of service and give it a good servicing.

 

[jis]

Where is Alstrom's plant located?

Hornell NY

 

[jis]

Didn't realize the Surfliners were still in production. Are they made in the states, or Canada?

There is a new follow-on order for some 15 or 20 more to be used half and half in Southern and Northern California. So Strictly speaking half are Surfliner and the other half are so called California Cars, but theya re really no different other than livery perhaps.

They are assembled Alstom's plant in Hornell NY. Why would they be built in Canada? Does Alstom Transportation have a Canadian plant? I know Alstom Power has a significant facility in Canada, but am not aware of any Transportation related stuff. But that could just be my ignorance too.

 

[the_traveler]

Where is Alstrom's plant located?

Hornell NY

I thought I heard a long time ago that the Hornell plant closed? :huh:

 

[dart330]

The numbers I've seen for the Superliner II's are 140 costing 340 million in 1993. Which means each car cost a little over 2.4 million dollars in 1993 money.

According to an inflation calc:

What cost $2,400,000 in 1993 would cost $3,532,875.87 in 2008.

What cost $140,000,000 in 1993 would cost $206,084,425.64 in 2008.

I am sure it would cost more than that, but how many billions did they get? Seems like they could easily place a new order...

 

[jis]

Where is Alstrom's plant located?

Hornell NY

I thought I heard a long time ago that the Hornell plant closed? :huh:

Take a look at the following press release for example to disabuse yourself of that impression:

http://www.transport.alstom.com/pr_transp_...amp;cookie=true

 

[the_traveler]

My mistake. I thought the Alstrom/Kawasaki partnership and/or plant closed. Maybe what I heard was about the building of the cars.

I'm glad they are there! Let's give them some more work!

 

[Gord]

The numbers I've seen for the Superliner II's are 140 costing 340 million in 1993. Which means each car cost a little over 2.4 million dollars in 1993 money.

According to an inflation calc:

What cost $2,400,000 in 1993 would cost $3,532,875.87 in 2008.

What cost $140,000,000 in 1993 would cost $206,084,425.64 in 2008.

I am sure it would cost more than that, but how many billions did they get? Seems like they could easily place a new order...

Hmm. Roughly 3 million for a new car versus the actual cost of the recent Bear rebuild, $687,000. I'd say the rebuild program is a bargain. Rail equipment in the US and Canada was designed and built to last and to be rebuilt. This is exactly why Via chose to rebuild their fleet of 54 year old, ex-CPR, Budd equipment, still going strong. I do however agree that new cars will also be required.

Gord

 

[Gord]

I would think restarting a Bombardier line to build more superliners would be a very effective stimilus myself...

I'm with you! Although it's not the same, with many auto plants closing down and with unemployment near or above 10%, I think reopening some plants and hiring workers to build new and better cars would be a good stimulus!

But there is already an active line at Alstom building Surfliners. Is another line really required at Bombardier, specially when all that Amtrak plans to order near term are 100 and something bilevel commuter/short distance cars like say..... Surfliners?

I wouldn't mind having two competing manufactuers in the United States...and I especially wouldn't mind seeing Bombardier reopen their Barre, VT plant, which produced the Acelas and a number of subway and light rail cars. Though I think part of that plant is now occupied by a wind turbine manufacturer.

Where is Alstrom's plant located?

Welcome to the Global economy.

Bombardier is, and always was a Canadian company headquartered in Montreal, Quebec with branch plants worldwide, including the US.

Alstom is not a US company either, I believe it's hq is in England, again with branch plants everywhere, including the US.

Gord

 

[battalion51]

Even though the companies may not be American, I still think we'd all still rather see something be built in Barre, VT or Hornell, NY vs. Thunder Bay, ON. The corporation may not be American, but they're employing American workers and you can say, "Made in America."

 

[sportbiker]

Alstom is not a US company either, I believe it's hq is in England

It's a French company.

 

[stntylr]

Is there a Buy American requirement for Amtrak? I know that the Buy American clause is in the stimulus package.

 

[jis]

Alstom is not a US company either, I believe it's hq is in England

It's a French company.

Yep. Alstom is a French company.

However, I believe one half of Alstom came from England way back when. If you look into the history of Alstom it was the result of the merger of Alsace and Thompson to form Alsthom, which then went through a French government forced joint operation with Alcatel as Alcatel-Alsthom, and then was again separated out as Alsthom which then changed its name to Alstom.

Incidentally, the Alcatel of Alcatel-Alsthom then went on to merge recently with Lucent - the remains of what used to be Western Electric, to become Alcatel-Lucent. So technically, the remains of what used to Western Electric is now technically a French company. Welcome to globalization.

 

[MikeM]

Hmm. Roughly 3 million for a new car versus the actual cost of the recent Bear rebuild, $687,000. I'd say the rebuild program is a bargain. Rail equipment in the US and Canada was designed and built to last and to be rebuilt. This is exactly why Via chose to rebuild their fleet of 54 year old, ex-CPR, Budd equipment, still going strong. I do however agree that new cars will also be required.
Gord

I don't think it's so much a question of if it's cheaper to rebuild / rehab existing cars as it is that it's hard to rehab cars that don't exist. Right now, Amtrak lacks any real reserve quantities of cars that could be used to expand existing services or start new services. Moreover, lots of cars in the current fleet really could benenfit from some TLC which hasn't been forthcoming due to lack of rebuild funding and capacity constraints. My point earlier in the thread was that we need some additional cars so that Amtrak can take advantage of opportunities to offer new services, not to mention expand consists during peak times.

 

[jackal]

Is there a Buy American requirement for Amtrak? I know that the Buy American clause is in the stimulus package.

Amtrak has always had a requirement for final assembly domestically, but they count Canada for domestic purposes. So any company building components for Amtrak must open a plant in the U.S. or Canada to put the items together.

(It may be a NAFTA thing, in which case Mexico would be included, but I haven't heard of any Amtrak equipment being built in Mexico...)

 

[Green Maned Lion]

What you guys are missing is that there aren't any suitable medium/long distance single level car producers at the moment. Everything is bi-level which doesn't work for amtrak NEC work- you need a no-stair pass through point, two vestibules, and automatic doors for SD/Regional work.

The cost of building a Amfleet III or Horizon II or Corridorliner or whatever is that a producer needs to tool up to build it. The Viewliner IIs aren't going to actually cost $3.5 million a unit to build. They are gonna cost more like $1.8-2.5 million marginal cost. The rest of that is distributing fixed cost over the number units. The more they build, the cheaper they get.

Due to the tooling costs, simply repairing these cars make more sense.

 

[AlanB]

No, simply repairing these cars doesn't make total sense. Yes, I agree that repairing the cars is important and needs to be done. But it does nothing to address the needs for expanded service on existing routes, as well as new routes.

Best to get started now with some plans, get things tooled up to turn out new cars for expanded service, and then by the time that's done they can start rolling out new cars to replace what will then be 40 to 50 year old cars that will need to be retired.

Yes VIA has kept their cars rolling, but at considerable expense both in terms of actual repairs and in terms of reduced ridership because the public wants modern conviences that those cars can't provide.

 

[printman2000]

Yes VIA has kept their cars rolling, but at considerable expense both in terms of actual repairs and in terms of reduced ridership because the public wants modern conviences that those cars can't provide.

Alan, what is a modern convenience that those cars cannot provide? I would assume anything could be retrofitted (for a price).

 

[Green Maned Lion]

No, simply repairing these cars doesn't make total sense. Yes, I agree that repairing the cars is important and needs to be done. But it does nothing to address the needs for expanded service on existing routes, as well as new routes.
Best to get started now with some plans, get things tooled up to turn out new cars for expanded service, and then by the time that's done they can start rolling out new cars to replace what will then be 40 to 50 year old cars that will need to be retired.

Yes VIA has kept their cars rolling, but at considerable expense both in terms of actual repairs and in terms of reduced ridership because the public wants modern conviences that those cars can't provide.

I don't disagree, although I think the current fleet has more life in it. But they should be replacing cars and allowing the older cars to run less often- instead of having 25 Amfleets protecting 22 required slots, have 40 Amfleets protecting 22 slots.

But you have to admit, adding 62 cars worth of capacity for $80 million is a heck of a lot cheaper then the $540 million it'll take to add 125 Viewliners worth of capacity.