Refund procedure for cancelled train unacceptable . . .

[Bolt]

I purchased tickets online for my parents for travel on February 20th from Yemassee, SC (Palmetto, #90) to Wilson, NC, transferring to the Carolinian SB (#79) to Durham, NC. The Palmetto, however, was cancelled that day due to a collision between two trains and a dump truck south of Savannah, GA (see: http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/sto...h_savannah.html ). My parents are in their mid-80s and drove up to the Yemassee station from Hilton Head, about an hour drive. Amtrak didn't cancel the train for over 4 hours past the scheduled departure, and then a bus showed up (while the train was still posted on the internet and the 800 number as delayed, not cancelled) -- the bus driver couldn't promise to go to Wilson, NC, much less any connection to Durham, and couldn't provide any information on expected arrival times, so my parents gave up and returned to Hilton Head.

Now I don't blame Amtrak, of course, for tragic bad luck that day. But my parents and I are also not responsible, and I would expect first class service in processing my full refund promptly. But instead, this is what I encountered:

1. I may return the unused tickets by mail by certified first-class mail, return-receipt-requested (at my expense) to request a refund.

2. My parents or I may return the tickets to a ticket agent at an Amtrak station to request a refund.

3. The refund may take a couple of months to process and apply as a credit to my credit card account.

My objections and concerns:

(1) Why should I have to incur several dollars of expenses mailing the tickets back to Amtrak by certified mail, return-receipt-requested, when we were victims of circumstance here, and the ticketed service was not provided? The mailing cost amounts to several percent of the ticket price. Amtrak refused to provide me with a postage prepaid envelope or to agree to reimburse mailing expenses.

(2) My parents are nearly an hour from the nearest manned Amtrak station in Savannah (and in their mid-80s, so driving is challenging as well as expensive and time consuming). The nearest station to me is Union Station in DC, where I rarely go. So the option of returning the tickets to an agent at a station is burdensome and costly for either of us.

(3) Most merchants refund returns to credit cards immediately. Why does Amtrak plan to retain our payment for up to two months without paying interest? My payment should not be used by Amtrak as an interest-free loan for a sixth of a year.

I don't think Amtrak's policy or practice in this circumstance is reasonable or responsive to its good customers who have been seriously inconvenienced through no fault of their own. I have seen that others have also posted grievances in this forum about what they encountered from Amtrak in similar circumstances, including one who finally received a check with 10 percent deducted improperly, despite his refund request arising because of cancelled service. I know Amtrak emphasizes its commitment to its customers, but I feel more as if I'm dealing with an unresponsive and tone-deaf government agency then with an entrepreneurial enterprise concerned about nurturing long term good will with its customers. :angry:

Reactions? Experiences of others? I would be interested to hear from you!

 

[Upstate]

Yeah, that sucks. My local station is unstaffed so I always pay on the train when I travel out of there to avoid any situations like this. As long as there is not a printed ticket involved refunds are easy.

 

[printman2000]

The certified mail is not actually required, but it is to protect you so you can prove they received it.

Not sure why they told you a couple of months. I have never heard of anyone taking that long.

 

[Bolt]

The certified mail is not actually required, but it is to protect you so you can prove they received it.
Not sure why they told you a couple of months. I have never heard of anyone taking that long.

Well, the mail-in refund procedure exposes the requester to a risk. The question is, who bears the cost of mitigating that risk? In our circumstances, Amtrak should bear that cost under any reasonable policy or practice.

In addition to the instructions I received by phone, I notice that Amtrak instructs mail refund requests to be sent by certified mail, return-receipt-requested on its refunds web page:

"Mail Refunds

Amtrak can process your unused ticket refund by mail. Send original tickets via certified mail with return receipt requested to: Amtrak Customer Refunds, Box 70, 30th St. Station, 2955 Market Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104-2898" (Source: http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServe...57&ssid=363 )

As for the time required to process a refund to a credit card, I am apparently not the only one who has been told that. See Post #1 in this thread: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?...5&hl=refund .

 

[AlanB]

As for the time required to process a refund to a credit card, I am apparently not the only one who has been told that. See Post #1 in this thread: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?...5&hl=refund .

Different circumstances than yours. In the case above, the person was already traveling and therefore had handed in the tickets, prior to the interuption of service. It takes Amtrak time to verify that the tickets were indeed taken by the conductor. Otherwise the OP could have turned around later and used those tickets to get a second refund or perhaps in trade for a new reservation.

I'm not quite sure why you got told that it should take that long to process a refund since you have the original tickets, unless the agent misunderstood something. But I suppose that it's also possible that Amtrak has just slashed the department that handles these things trying to comply with Congress' desire for profit and that they are understaffed.

As for what to do about the tickets, it is what it is and Amtrak won't budge on your choices to get the tickets to them. As far as Amtrak is concerned, those tickets represent cash. If you loose cash on the street, you are out that money. If you loose those tickets, you are out that money. Anyone who finds them can trade them in for new tickets on another train and Amtrak won't know that it wasn't you.

So you have a choice of paying the 5 bucks or so to send them certified, or somehow getting them to a station for a refund. You're only other choice might be, if you know that you or your parents are going to take another trip within a year, you could trade those tickets to pay for the new ones. The only thing that you need to be careful about is did you book business class seats, as that could change the rules.

 

[Bolt]

As for what to do about the tickets, it is what it is and Amtrak won't budge on your choices to get the tickets to them. . . . So you have a choice of paying the 5 bucks or so to send them certified, or somehow getting them to a station for a refund.

No doubt -- those are my choices. My point is that those choices result from a policy Amtrak established as a matter of its business judgment and discretion. It has exercised poor and unacceptable judgment, in my view. I have tried to explain why.

Different circumstances than yours. In the case above, the person was already traveling and therefore had handed in the tickets, prior to the interuption of service. It takes Amtrak time to verify that the tickets were indeed taken by the conductor. Otherwise the OP could have turned around later and used those tickets to get a second refund or perhaps in trade for a new reservation.

Does it really take two months for the conductor to turn in the tickets and for them to be entered in a database? How late does Amtrak expect the train that conductor is on to be? (And I hope you're right, that the refund in fact takes far less than two months to actually process and credit. Your knowledge on this score gives me cause to hope. )

 

[Tony]

Different circumstances than yours. In the case above, the person was already traveling and therefore had handed in the tickets, prior to the interuption of service. It takes Amtrak time to verify that the tickets were indeed taken by the conductor. Otherwise the OP could have turned around later and used those tickets to get a second refund or perhaps in trade for a new reservation.

In the other tread where I was whining about being stuck on a non-moving Silver for 24 hours, I can mention here that the very next workday morning (Monday morning in this case), Amtrak called me to apologize and offer compensation. So, clearly, if Amtrak wants to, it can verify tickets, and therefore passengers, quite quickly.

BTW, they called me at work, which totally surprised me since I don't remember ever giving them my work number.

 

[Everydaymatters]

It's unfortunate that your parents had to go through the stress of the poor way Amtrak handled the situation at the station and in not telling people up front what was happening. I hate hearing of that happening to anyone and it happens way too often.

I'm wondering how you would want Amtrak to handle the refund? If I have to get a refund for something I buy at a store, I have to either return it in person or mail it to the store. They say it will take 2 months for the credit to be on my credit card, but that's because it could be issued at the wrong part of the credit card's billing cycle. As far as credit for the postage for returning the ticket, if I was paying $5 or so, I would request that they refund my expense. Most stores would do so if the problem was their fault and hopefully, Amtrak would be honorable enough to also refund your mailing fees.

I don't know how else Amtrak could issue credit unless you return the ticket by mail or in person.

 

[yarrow]

bolt, you correctly understand amtrak's refund procedure. i am sure amtrak put in a ton of top administrator hours coming up with it and i bet they think it is great. amtrak doesn't care much about you and your parents trip. they don't care if you get a refund or if you ever ride the train again. also, i wouldn't wasted my time asking for a postage refund. to you and me, it seems the way a business should be run but it's not in amtrak's procedure so it won't happen. smooth running amtrak trips are a joy. amtrak trips that go otherwise can be a nightmare and that doesn't seem to greatly bother the corporation

 

[Bolt]

I'm wondering how you would want Amtrak to handle the refund? If I have to get a refund for something I buy at a store, I have to either return it in person or mail it to the store. They say it will take 2 months for the credit to be on my credit card, but that's because it could be issued at the wrong part of the credit card's billing cycle. As far as credit for the postage for returning the ticket, if I was paying $5 or so, I would request that they refund my expense. Most stores would do so if the problem was their fault and hopefully, Amtrak would be honorable enough to also refund your mailing fees.

I would be very happy if Amtrak would simply agree to reimburse my cost of returning the tickets via certified, return receipt requested mail. That's all. I agree with you that most companies would do the same, for instance, if their product were recalled due to a product defect (in fact, I have had that experience myself when returning a recalled product, after calling the consumer 800 number and discussing how I could handle it while incurring the least possible inconvenience and expense.) The thing about returning it to the "store" in my situation is that the store was Amtrak's online purchase web site. Frankly, I think that a refund should be handled through the internet. The tickets are in the name of specific passengers, and Amtrak's computer system should confirm they were never used. Amtrak can cancel them, assuring it won't refund or honor them in the future. I don't pretend to have considered all of the details of how to set up such a system, but I'm confident that if it were important to Amtrak to treat it's good customers who have suffered a serious inconvenience in a first-class manner, it would solve those challenges.

 

[PRR 60]

I'm wondering how you would want Amtrak to handle the refund? If I have to get a refund for something I buy at a store, I have to either return it in person or mail it to the store. They say it will take 2 months for the credit to be on my credit card, but that's because it could be issued at the wrong part of the credit card's billing cycle. As far as credit for the postage for returning the ticket, if I was paying $5 or so, I would request that they refund my expense. Most stores would do so if the problem was their fault and hopefully, Amtrak would be honorable enough to also refund your mailing fees.
I don't know how else Amtrak could issue credit unless you return the ticket by mail or in person.

Actually, it coulld be done very easily without returning the physical ticket for a reservation where the travel date has passed. All Amtrak would have to do is:

- Cancel the reservation in the computer. That, in turn, would..

- Block the ticket from being accepted for exchange of value to future travel. Then,

- Issue the refund to the ticket holder's credit card account.

Seems pretty simple to me. A ticket is not like a toaster. It has no intrinsic value. It s just a piece of paper. The value assigned to that paper is assigned by Amtrak. If Amtrak removes that value, then it's just paper again.

This does assume that the date of travel has passed and the ticket was not lifted. Given that there is no real-time way for a conductor on a train to validate a ticket, there is no way to block a cancelled ticket from being accepted on a train. However, a week or so after the date of travel should clear all used tickets from the system. Once Amtrak knows the ticket was not used on the date of travel, it really should be easy for them to cancel it and issue the refund without having to have the paper in hand. Why they put customers through this kind of nonsense is a mystery to me. This is 2009, not 1979.

I think the 2-month stuff is just to buy them time to handle the ticket and process the refund. In my one and only experience with cancelling a paper ticket (turned in at a station), it only took about a week for the refund to hit my credit card account.

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

Place a call to your credit card company that will stop interest being charged while the process goes on.

 

[AlanB]

This does assume that the date of travel has passed and the ticket was not lifted. Given that there is no real-time way for a conductor on a train to validate a ticket, there is no way to block a cancelled ticket from being accepted on a train.

And therein lies the problem, the fact that the conductor has no way to validate a ticket.

First, too many conductors don't look at the dates of the ticket when they collect it. So unless you're holding a ticket for a sleeper, where a conflict would quickly arrise, the conductor could unwittingly accept a ticket that has been refunded. Now I will grant that the conductor probably should be checking the tickets more carefully, but the simple reality is that many times they just don't have the time to do that.

Second, while they are few and far between, there are still routes where unreserved tickets are in use. Those tickets really are good for an entire year. So in that case, even a conductor who was checking would get burned.

Now perhaps as the electronic ticket collection program comes online, this issue will be fixed. But for the moment, Amtrak has to treat tickets like cash.

 

[printman2000]

This does assume that the date of travel has passed and the ticket was not lifted. Given that there is no real-time way for a conductor on a train to validate a ticket, there is no way to block a cancelled ticket from being accepted on a train. However, a week or so after the date of travel should clear all used tickets from the system. Once Amtrak knows the ticket was not used on the date of travel, it really should be easy for them to cancel it and issue the refund without having to have the paper in hand. Why they put customers through this kind of nonsense is a mystery to me. This is 2009, not 1979.

Not sure if they still do, but it was not too long ago I saw Southwest Airlines doing the exact same thing (on that reality TV show they use to have). If you lost the ticket, you are out of luck. Even though you info is in their system and it shows you bought the ticket, if you lose it, you are out.

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

Also by using certified mail Amtrak has proof of who sent in the ticket and can match that addresses in case of a lost ticket claim.

 

[transit54]

This does assume that the date of travel has passed and the ticket was not lifted. Given that there is no real-time way for a conductor on a train to validate a ticket, there is no way to block a cancelled ticket from being accepted on a train. However, a week or so after the date of travel should clear all used tickets from the system. Once Amtrak knows the ticket was not used on the date of travel, it really should be easy for them to cancel it and issue the refund without having to have the paper in hand. Why they put customers through this kind of nonsense is a mystery to me. This is 2009, not 1979.

Not sure if they still do, but it was not too long ago I saw Southwest Airlines doing the exact same thing (on that reality TV show they use to have). If you lost the ticket, you are out of luck. Even though you info is in their system and it shows you bought the ticket, if you lose it, you are out.

Any company that uses paper tickets does the same exact thing. Most airline tickets now are e-tickets, but most airlines retain the ability to print paper tickets. Paper tickets are like cash and treated as such.

Anyway, I think the thing to do here is to call Amtrak, explain your situation, and simply ask that they refund you the mailing cost of the tickets. I don't think that's an unreasonable request and I'm sure if you're civil about it, but insistent, it will happen.

 

[Bolt]

Anyway, I think the thing to do here is to call Amtrak, explain your situation, and simply ask that they refund you the mailing cost of the tickets. I don't think that's an unreasonable request and I'm sure if you're civil about it, but insistent, it will happen.

I agree that that makes sense, but I was civil and quite insistent -- and it didn't happen. Today I drove over 10 miles to Union Station in DC (and the same distance back home) to return the tickets for a refund, but I also learned something about the limits on Amtrak's commitment to its customers. My father reminded me that Amtrak had not communicated adequately with the folks who waited over four hours in a parking lot in Yemassee, SC waiting for the train while the recording on 1-800-USA-RAIL continued to indicate the train was delayed, and that with each call, the expected arrival time was pushed back further. The Palmetto was originally scheduled in Yemassee at 9:08 am, yet according to press accounts the accident that closed the tracks south of Savannah occurred at 7:30, over an hour and a half earlier. My dad pointed out that if an airline fails its customers in this way (poor communications, not the act-of-God accident), it would usually offer some compensation, such as a voucher for a free ticket. Plainly, a different ethos regarding customer relations applies at Amtrak.

 

[Upstate]

My dad pointed out that if an airline fails its customers in this way (poor communications, not the act-of-God accident), it would usually offer some compensation, such as a voucher for a free ticket. Plainly, a different ethos regarding customer relations applies at Amtrak.

Have you asked yet? I have had a few trips that were several hours late and when I called up amtrak they gave me a travel voucher. They would have done nothing had I not asked.

 

[Upstate]

Today I drove over 10 miles to Union Station in DC (and the same distance back home) to return the tickets for a refund...

Wow, over ten miles. I have to drive that distance just to get to my local unstaffed station. I would have to drive over 30 miles (and the same distance back home) to get to a ticket counter if I wanted to take tickets back.

 

[Bolt]

Today I drove over 10 miles to Union Station in DC (and the same distance back home) to return the tickets for a refund...

Wow, over ten miles.

Rush hour traffic on Mass. Ave. is no fun and takes the better part of an hour. But all along, I have emphasized the principle that when Amtrak cancels a train, it ought to reach out to facilitate a refund in the manner that is least burdensome on its affected customers -- paying for the requisite premium mail service, processing refund applications over the internet, or so on. I don't contend I've been grossly put upon -- I'll live. But the simple fact is that Amtrak has made it extremely easy and convenient to purchase a ticket on its internet web site -- a transaction from which it benefits. But when it fails to provide the promised service (perhaps, as here, through no fault of its own), Amtrak makes it costly and time-consuming for a customer to apply for a refund, as I have documented. Driving 20+ miles through a major city on city streets on my dime in no way compares to the 2 minutes it took me to purchase the useless tickets initially. The costs might not be back-breaking, but they are significant in comparison with how easy it is to buy the tickets in the first place. And under circumstances where Amtrak didn't provide the service, there is no excuse for that.

Addressing and resolving this problem by improving its refund policy is in Amtrak's own interest, in investing in a strong relationship with its good customers who often do have attractive transportation alternatives.

The reason I started this thread was not in the expectation that I would benefit from a customer-service epiphany on Amtrak's part. But I do hope that over the longer haul Amtrak management takes note and re-thinks its inadequate policy in circumstances such as mine, and that others may, in fact, benefit in the future.

 

[jackal]

I would be very happy if Amtrak would simply agree to reimburse my cost of returning the tickets via certified, return receipt requested mail. That's all. I agree with you that most companies would do the same, for instance, if their product were recalled due to a product defect (in fact, I have had that experience myself when returning a recalled product, after calling the consumer 800 number and discussing how I could handle it while incurring the least possible inconvenience and expense.) The thing about returning it to the "store" in my situation is that the store was Amtrak's online purchase web site. Frankly, I think that a refund should be handled through the internet. The tickets are in the name of specific passengers, and Amtrak's computer system should confirm they were never used. Amtrak can cancel them, assuring it won't refund or honor them in the future. I don't pretend to have considered all of the details of how to set up such a system, but I'm confident that if it were important to Amtrak to treat it's good customers who have suffered a serious inconvenience in a first-class manner, it would solve those challenges.

Many online stores do not reimburse the cost of shipping a return back to them regardless of the reason, and some don't even refund the original shipping charge (i.e. they'll return the $29.99 you spent on the product but not the $5.99 they charged to ship it to you or the $8 you spent to ship it back to them).

I agree that in a circumstance like this, Amtrak should do this for you, but I just wanted to point out that there isn't necessarily a precedent for this action.

 

[Bolt]

Many online stores do not reimburse the cost of shipping a return back to them regardless of the reason, and some don't even refund the original shipping charge (i.e. they'll return the $29.99 you spent on the product but not the $5.99 they charged to ship it to you or the $8 you spent to ship it back to them).
I agree that in a circumstance like this, Amtrak should do this for you, but I just wanted to point out that there isn't necessarily a precedent for this action.

I suspect most companies would bend over backwards out of self-interest to refund a customer purchase when the company itself has failed entirely to deliver the service that was purchased. And even if some companies might be as insensitive as Amtrak is on this score, the best ones -- the ones that care about building a long term relationship based on loyalty with their customers -- would do so. So Amtrak must decide which type of company it will be. The "precedent" is established by the many excellent companies that would do what is right in a similar situation, and does not require such a business practice to have achieved universality throughout the corporate world.

 

[p&sr]

Today I drove over 10 miles to Union Station in DC...Rush hour traffic on Mass. Ave. is no fun and takes the better part of an hour.

Wow, city traffic! How unusual. If only there were some way to get to the Train Station by Rail instead of driving. Maybe some kind of Metro system or something?

 

[Everydaymatters]

I can't help but to feel that you wouldn't be half as angry about the refund procedure if Amtrak had been up-front with the passengers about the delay. They are sorely lacking in communication.

 

[Bolt]

I can't help but to feel that you wouldn't be half as angry about the refund procedure if Amtrak had been up-front with the passengers about the delay. They are sorely lacking in communication.

That's a good point. The initial communications failure, and the burden it imposed on my parents and other would-be prepaid passengers waiting in Yemassee, SC, on the one hand, and the inadequacy of the refund procedure, on the other, are two separate issues, and both constitute disappointing attention to customers by Amtrak. Both are part of what my parents and I experienced here. I would wish to bring both aspects of that experience to Amtrak's attention. The only relation between the two is that the worse the service Amtrak provides its customers, the greater is its responsibility in any normal business context to reach out and do whatever is necessary to make the situation right, especially avoiding adding insult to injury by imposing continuing costs and inconvenience on its customers. At the same time, however, even absent the communications failure, Amtrak should not impose needless additional costs as part of a refund procedure when it has not provided the underlying service covered by the tickets for which the refund is sought. As for my reaction, yes, a bit of anger, especially at first, but to be honest, mostly just disappointed surprise and hope that this will be a learning opportunity for Amtrak going forward. That's the watchword for America these days, isn't it? Hope.

Today I drove over 10 miles to Union Station in DC...Rush hour traffic on Mass. Ave. is no fun and takes the better part of an hour.

Wow, city traffic! How unusual. If only there were some way to get to the Train Station by Rail instead of driving. Maybe some kind of Metro system or something?

Metro goes to Union Station, but not to my house, and parking near a Metro station in the burbs is not easy until well into rush hour in the afternoon (the only time generally available to me to make the trip) when people begin returning from work downtown and driving off. One could avoid driving, but the Metro trains are crowded and not pleasant during afternoon/evening rush, especially on the return trip. So each to their own. Neither way is a panacea. In any event, my point was to compare the 2 minutes online it takes to purchase a ticket, a convenient system Amtrak invested in providing its customers -- and the mess involved in returning tickets for a refund when Amtrak has failed to provide the service covered by those tickets. Had I taken well over an hour by Metro to go to and from Union Station, paying fares even greater than the premium postage required to return the tickets by mail, it would still have been a comparative mess.