Reminiscing about SFZ/CZ, Pioneer and Desert Wind

[Willbridge]

Back when the Pioneer was combined with the California Zephyr several customers told me that the Seattle diner was better than the Chicago diner. I couldn't compare them because I was always eating as a Pioneer passenger.

 

[Cal]

Back when the Pioneer was combined with the California Zephyr several customers told me that the Seattle diner was better than the Chicago diner. I couldn't compare them because I was always eating as a Pioneer passenger.

Could one choose which diner they could eat in? Or did the LSA's just go around to their respective trains.

 

[Willbridge]

Could one choose which diner they could eat in? Or did the LSA's just go around to their respective trains.

I think that the comparisons came from regulars on the common segment who sometimes were sold tickets as Trains 5/6 and other times as Trains 25/26. Or 35/36! Or from breakfasts.

 

[zephyr17]

Could one choose which diner they could eat in? Or did the LSA's just go around to their respective trains.

When diners ran through on the Zephyr, you could eat in any of them.

I don't recall a Pioneer diner, but I definitely recall a Desert Wind diner running through.

 

[Dakota 400]

but I definitely recall a Desert Wind diner running through.

I don't remember that. I recall the Desert Wind diner was dropped when the train connected with the California Zephyr. We had dinner out of Los Angeles; the next morning, when we went for breakfast, we were in a different diner. I am remembering that the Desert Wind diner was a Diner/Lounge type car while the Zephyr's diner was a regular dining car. But, that was many years ago and my memory may be wrong,

 

[jis]

I don't remember that. I recall the Desert Wind diner was dropped when the train connected with the California Zephyr. We had dinner out of Los Angeles; the next morning, when we went for breakfast, we were in a different diner. I am remembering that the Desert Wind diner was a Diner/Lounge type car while the Zephyr's diner was a regular dining car. But, that was many years ago and my memory may be wrong,

I seem to recall that the Desert Wind got an ex El Cap Hi Level Diner between Los Angeles and Ogden/SLC. But it was a while back and I may be remembering wrong. The Hi Level Diners were HEP-ed around 1981 to operate in conjunction with Superliners. I also remember riding a Hi Level Coach on the Desert Wind which did not get transferred to the Zephyr. I had to walk over to a different (Superliner) Coach.

 

[zephyr17]

The Desert Wind operated a bunch of different ways. I remember the diner/lounges, that was a good car layout but this was before they were put into that configuration and used on the DW (and I do remember those didn't stay in the consist once combined). The trip I am recalling was in 1984, I remember the year specifically because it was to escape LA during the Olympics. And I recall both diners as Superliners.

 

[railiner]

When diners ran through on the Zephyr, you could eat in any of them.

I don't recall a Pioneer diner, but I definitely recall a Desert Wind diner running through.

IIRC, when they began to run the CZ, Pioneer, and Desert Wind as a combined train from Chicago to Salt Lake City, and then split them all there, the "Chicago Diner" ran on the CZ to Oakland, and the "L A Diner" ran thru to Los Angeles. A SSL was added to the Pioneer cars at SLC to SEA. When the operation was changed to splitting the Pioneer off at Denver and running it thru Wyoming, the Pioneer may have picked up its own diner or SSL at Denver...not sure about the latter.

 

[Willbridge]

IIRC, when they began to run the CZ, Pioneer, and Desert Wind as a combined train from Chicago to Salt Lake City, and then split them all there, the "Chicago Diner" ran on the CZ to Oakland, and the "L A Diner" ran thru to Los Angeles. A SSL was added to the Pioneer cars at SLC to SEA. When the operation was changed to splitting the Pioneer off at Denver and running it thru Wyoming, the Pioneer may have picked up its own diner or SSL at Denver...not sure about the latter.

The only thing more complicated than the history of some Amtrak routes recounted in Fifty Years of Amtrak Trains would be the dining/lounge/cafe history of Trains 5/6/25/26/35/36. I'll violate my dad's rule against absolute statements about rail history and say that SSL's were never used on the Pioneer. They should have been, but even then Amtrak was short on equipment.

During the service cutbacks that produced the ridership figures that justified discontinuing the Pioneer and Desert Wind here is a non-CZ consist.

 

[railiner]

The only thing more complicated than the history of some Amtrak routes recounted in Fifty Years of Amtrak Trains would be the dining/lounge/cafe history of Trains 5/6/25/26/35/36. I'll violate my dad's rule against absolute statements about rail history and say that SSL's were never used on the Pioneer. They should have been, but even then Amtrak was short on equipment.

During the service cutbacks that produced the ridership figures that justified discontinuing the Pioneer and Desert Wind here is a non-CZ consist.

View attachment 28213

Your most likely correct about that…They used a “diner/lounge” from SLC to Seattle when the Pioneer cars were split there, as well as when it split at Denvet, later on.
I transferred out of Denver in 1989, so don’t have memories of the 90’s operations Thanks for the correction.

 

[jruff001]

The only thing more complicated than the history of some Amtrak routes recounted in Fifty Years of Amtrak Trains would be the dining/lounge/cafe history of Trains 5/6/25/26/35/36. I'll violate my dad's rule against absolute statements about rail history and say that SSL's were never used on the Pioneer. They should have been, but even then Amtrak was short on equipment.

During the service cutbacks that produced the ridership figures that justified discontinuing the Pioneer and Desert Wind here is a non-CZ consist.

View attachment 28213

Wait, maybe I am not understanding what this is, but where are # 5's cars?

 

[zephyr17]

Wait, maybe I am not understanding what this is, but where are # 5's cars?

The page is from 1997 during the idiotic Mercer cuts when none of the long distance trains ran daily.

The pattern for the under the Mercer cuts for 5/6,25/26,35/36 was 5/6 ran 4 days a week, 25/26-35/36 ran 3 days a week, providing daily service CHI-DEN.

5's cars aren't there because 5 isn't part of the consist.

 

[Amtrak709]

The only thing more complicated than the history of some Amtrak routes recounted in Fifty Years of Amtrak Trains would be the dining/lounge/cafe history of Trains 5/6/25/26/35/36. I'll violate my dad's rule against absolute statements about rail history and say that SSL's were never used on the Pioneer. They should have been, but even then Amtrak was short on equipment.

During the service cutbacks that produced the ridership figures that justified discontinuing the Pioneer and Desert Wind here is a non-CZ consist.

View attachment 28213

I was on the Desert Wind the last day it ran in 1997--sleeper LAX-CHI. While I have no real recollection of the consist that day, I DO remember what the sleeping car fare was: Deluxe Bedroom E = $525.00. I will stay off my soap-box about high sleeper bedroom prices these days. I remember the fare because I still have the original ticket receipt plus the conductor on the train sold two passengers the Bedroom D right next to mine before the train left LAX for about $200 less than the $525.00 I had paid months before. Actually, truth be know, I really did not care. I was just happy to be on that train.

 

[Sidney]

Hard to believe it will be 25 years since we lost the Desert Wind and Pioneer. I rode the Wind twice and had plans to ride the Pioneer in 1998. Another "hard to believe"..25 years with no train service to Las Vegas. The Desert Wind stopped at the Plaza downtown. Got off the train and into the lobby in minutes.

 

[Dakota 400]

The Desert Wind stopped at the Plaza downtown.

I vividly remember the train stopping in downtown Las Vegas with all of its glitz and lights. We were having dinner at that time. I still recall a diner/lounge type car.

I seem to recall that the Desert Wind got an ex El Cap Hi Level Diner between Los Angeles and Ogden/SLC

Would this type of Diner been a Diner/Lounge as I am remembering?

 

[jis]

Would this type of Diner been a Diner/Lounge as I am remembering?

That is what they called them back then AFAIK. There were also the Hi-Level pure Lounges too which eventually became the PPCs before retirement. The Hi-Level Diners were retired much earlier.

 

[zephyr17]

I vividly remember the train stopping in downtown Las Vegas with all of its glitz and lights. We were having dinner at that time. I still recall a diner/lounge type car.



Would this type of Diner been a Diner/Lounge as I am remembering?

They reconfigured the Hi Level Diners into Diner Lounges used on the Desert Wind. One thing I recall about them is they had a serving counter you see in buffets with a place to slide a tray along. Passengers never used it, I won't discount the possibility the server used it to assemble items, but I don't recall it.

 

[Dakota 400]

One thing I recall about them is they had a serving counter you see in buffets with a place to slide a tray along. Passengers never used it,

I don't recall that, but, it could have been there and I never noticed it.

Thanks zephyr17 and jis! My memory still seems to be working!

 

[jiml]

I have 4 Desert Wind trips to draw on - 3 westbound and 1 eastbound. The ex-Santa Fe diner/lounge as described in Post #17 above was added westbound in SLC. (One trip the train might have been split in Ogden - can't be sure.) The only time we got a Superliner diner was eastbound out of LA. The menu choices on the westbounds were unique to that train - things like scrambled egg hash and blueberry muffins at breakfast and a BBQ-style dish for lunch. They were arranged in steam trays behind the glass as described, but served by the attendant. Seconds were offered - the only time I've ever seen that on an Amtrak train.

As a sidebar note, one time westbound the Pioneer was separated at Denver. The Desert Wind remains my favorite Amtrak train of all time. I still have the t-shirt I bought at the little on-board "shop" set up between mealtimes and the DW baseball cap I won playing trivia. For a 4-5 car train it had a lot of "personality".

 

[Dakota 400]

One trip the train might have been split in Ogden

I wish I could remember where the split took place. I am sure my traveling companion and I were asleep; probably, the reason I can't remember that.

The Desert Wind remains my favorite Amtrak train. For a 4-5 car train it had a lot of "personality".

Agree! And, I am just unsure why. If I could accurately remember the year I rode the train; if I could remember what journey I was on that got us to Los Angeles and on that train, I think, that would help explain why the Desert Wind looms large in my travel memory.

 

[jruff001]

The page is from 1997 during the idiotic Mercer cuts when none of the long distance trains ran daily.

The pattern for the under the Mercer cuts for 5/6,25/26,35/36 was 5/6 ran 4 days a week, 25/26-35/36 ran 3 days a week, providing daily service CHI-DEN.

5's cars aren't there because 5 isn't part of the consist.

Thanks.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Its sad of all the expansion talk this really isn’t on the radar. Lot of bang for the buck with these three trains. The other possibility that would work is a Desert Wind/Pioneer route that has nothing to do with the CZ. A daily LAX-SEA train via SLC. Hopefully when Gardner and Board are replaced new ideas will emerge and appropriate equipment ordered, if it’s not too late by then.

 

[zephyr17]

One of the problems is that they retired all the Hi Level coaches, diner/lounges and transition cars during the Mercer cuts. When they went back to daily the fleet was simply too small to resume daily service on all the the trains. It was either keep less than daily operation or cut trains, and the less than daily operation had proven a ridership and financial disaster. With wreck damage (not to mention the cars still laid up due to lack of maintenance and inspection during COVID) the current Superliner fleet is smaller still.

There isn't enough equipment to resume them, even if you could get UP to agree.

 

[west point]

I was in Portland station when the engineer inbound on Pioneer had his first trip on a F-40. I forget what locos were used before. He was very unhappy and made it clear to everyone that he thought the ride was almost unsafe. A few weeks later saw him again and he had calmed down quite a bit. Only said problem was solved.

 

[lstone19]

I rode 5 CHI-OAK departing CHI on 9/9/83. This was about a month into the D&RGW routing following the Thistle mudslide but before it was re-routed onto the ex-WP west of SLC so after SLC it was up to OGD. 35's cars came off in SLC, 25's cars in OGD. IIRC (and I very well might not), we passed the D&RGW SLC station, then backed over to the UP and their SLC station. Unfortunately, I did not get off to see what cars were waiting at SLC or OGD for 35 and 25.

Our consist out of CHI (all to OAK unless noted) was:
F40 (to 35 at SLC)
F40
F40
Baggage
Baggage
SF Transition Coach-Dorm
SL Sleeper 0531
SL Sleeper 0532
SL Diner
SL SSL
SL Coach
SL Coach
SL Coach
SL Coach (to 25 at OGD)
SL Sleeper (to 25 at OGD)
SL Coach (to 35 at SLC)
SL Sleeper (to 35 at SLC)
Private Car CRNJ 97 (to 35 at SLC)

After departing CHI 0:37 late, we arrived OAK 0:39 late so only lost two minutes enroute. 5 was held for 49 which I had been on and hit a truck at a grade crossing near Bryan, OH - 0:19L out of TOL but then 2:05L out of Bryan. In a good show, my notes say 49 arrived CHI at 3:08p and 5 departed at 3:27p so 19 minutes from one to the other (perhaps I was the slow poke going from the Slumbercoach on the rear of 49 to one of the sleepers on the front of 5).