Repaired Superliners

[Hanno]

A friend of mine was trying to book at bedroom on the SWC to FLG this summer and was surprised that either none were available or at very high prices (I'm not sure what dates he was looking at but I believe him about the high prices if available). He was aware of the fact that Superliners were being rebuilt at Beech Grove and asked me if they were being allocated to trains like the SWC or CZ. I don't know but said I would ask the "experts" on the forum.

Any information would be appreciated!

 

[Rail Freak]

A friend of mine was trying to book at bedroom on the SWC to FLG this summer and was surprised that either none were available or at very high prices (I'm not sure what dates he was looking at but I believe him about the high prices if available). He was aware of the fact that Superliners were being rebuilt at Beech Grove and asked me if they were being allocated to trains like the SWC or CZ. I don't know but said I would ask the "experts" on the forum.
Any information would be appreciated!

Everyone has their own level of "expensive" but, you can usually get them cheaper the farther out you book. Get on Amtrak.Com & do a little checking on different Booking Dates!!!

RF

SORRY HANNO,

I just noticed I didnt tell you anything new

RF

 

[EB_OBS]

Summertime is peak season. It's that simple. Even six months may not be enough advance to find low fares for certain trains on peak season dates.

The Superliner cars being rebuilt aren't projected to increase capacity on any LD trains. They will just barely fill in gaps caused by maintenance and allow other cars to be pulled in for more than just routine repairs.

 

[AlanB]

No, the Superliner's being repaired won't just help fill in gaps and what not. Amtrak announced way back when, that once the wrecks were repaired that the Capitol Limited would get its diner back, instead of a CCC that functions as a diner. Additionally big changes are in the works for the Empire Builder, and they will include capacity improvements. At a minimum, the Portland section is scheduled to receive a second sleeper and a CCC car to provide full meals Portland to Spokane. This would see the Sightseer lounge running to/from Seattle to provide cafe service there, along with full meals in the existing diner.

There was also some serious talk that the Seattle section may also see another sleeper (Eagle could preempt this) and rumors that perhaps another coach might be added.

I'm not aware of any plans for the Southwest Chief at all. There had been some talk of once again restoring the short turn Chicago-Denver sleeper to the Zephyr.

Some of the remaining equipment may well end up on the "new" Texas Eagle, if that plan ever happens. And of course whatever is left would go for gap maintenance and such.

 

[MattW]

Forgive me, but aside from creating jobs for the switching/maintenance/cleaning/whatever crew, what does dropping cars off mid-route do? For instance, the Empire Builder drops a car off at St. Paul in the summer, why not keep it all the way to Seattle or Portland and just sell seats in the extra capacity? It's one thing IMHO if they connect like the Eagle/Sunset does, but just leaving a revenue-generator sitting somewhere unused?

 

[AlanB]

Forgive me, but aside from creating jobs for the switching/maintenance/cleaning/whatever crew, what does dropping cars off mid-route do? For instance, the Empire Builder drops a car off at St. Paul in the summer, why not keep it all the way to Seattle or Portland and just sell seats in the extra capacity? It's one thing IMHO if they connect like the Eagle/Sunset does, but just leaving a revenue-generator sitting somewhere unused?

In some cases it's a matter of just not having enough passengers to regularly fill the cars for the full run. In other cases like the short turn sleeper, it's partly not having enough people to fill the car west of Denver, but also partly that Amtrak simply doesn't have enough sleepers to run the extra sleeper all the way to Cali. So by dropping it in Denver going west in the morning, they collect extra revenue CHI-DEN, and then in the evening the eastbound picks the sleeper up again and brings it back to Chicago and again maximized revenue.

In the case of the St. Paul coach, it's done largely to guarantee that there are always at least 75 seats available to the large numbers of people traveling between Chicago and Minneapolis/St. Paul. If they ran the car all the way through to the west coast, then ARROW would sell those seats to anyone traveling west of Minn/St. Paul.

 

[Ispolkom]

In the case of the St. Paul coach, it's done largely to guarantee that there are always at least 75 seats available to the large numbers of people traveling between Chicago and Minneapolis/St. Paul. If they ran the car all the way through to the west coast, then ARROW would sell those seats to anyone traveling west of Minn/St. Paul.

Not only does it increase capacity, but it does it in a manner that doesn't interfere with operations. Whenever I've taken coach east from St. Paul, that coach has been reserved strictly for passengers going St. Paul - Chicago, so there's no need to make a double stop at a station with a short platform, like Wisconsin Dells. I've never actually been in coach heading west from Chicago to St. Paul when the extra coach car is attached, so I'm not sure how things work in that direction.

 

[EB_OBS]

The CL is slated to get it's dining car back at some point in the near future. That I am aware of. I've been a part of several conferences and the RPI last year where we did indeed discuss the expansion of the EB consist by at least one sleeper and a CCC and possibly one coach. I've also spoken with one Amtrak VP who is very much pro EB expansion. Additionally, marketing has promised they can sell the space. However, as far as I'm aware of, adding capacity to the EB never progressed beyond general discussion and dreaming of the future. Many other plans are proposed and discussed and have initiated departmental reviews, budgeting and much more in depth planning. Adding cars to the EB never even made it into the 2nd round of the RPI last year. All I'm trying to point out is that, from my own involvement with the EB, increasing capacity hasn't yet reached a serious level of planning.

If I remember correctly, there are something around 36 superliners involved in the stimulus funded repair work going on at Beachgrove? I can tell you that just the EB, don't know about other LD trains, but just the Builder is constantly battling equipment shortages. We seem to go through cycles where whenever a car is b/o there's a good chance there isn't a replacement for it. Doesn't matter if it's in Seattle or Chicago. I also see too much get sent out in less than ideal condition because there likely isn't anything better to switch it out with. In Chicago, with the number of trains coming and going each day, I regularly see the yard crews having to wait for a train to arrive in order to take cars from it so another train can be readied for departure.

IMO, Amtrak is 100 to 150 cars short of superliners to accommodate routine PM efficiently and to see real increased capacity, 36 cars isn't going to pad the inventory enough I don't think.

Now, having said that, there is the consideration that some of the single level equipment being repaired and built could replace superliners on some routes and free up even more.

 

[EB_OBS]

In the case of the St. Paul coach, it's done largely to guarantee that there are always at least 75 seats available to the large numbers of people traveling between Chicago and Minneapolis/St. Paul. If they ran the car all the way through to the west coast, then ARROW would sell those seats to anyone traveling west of Minn/St. Paul.

Not only does it increase capacity, but it does it in a manner that doesn't interfere with operations. Whenever I've taken coach east from St. Paul, that coach has been reserved strictly for passengers going St. Paul - Chicago, so there's no need to make a double stop at a station with a short platform, like Wisconsin Dells. I've never actually been in coach heading west from Chicago to St. Paul when the extra coach car is attached, so I'm not sure how things work in that direction.

The drop coach at St. Paul does indeed work pretty efficiently. It helps a lot that there is significant padding in the schedule at St. Paul in both directions.

 

[AlanB]

The CL is slated to get it's dining car back at some point in the near future. That I am aware of. I've been a part of several conferences and the RPI last year where we did indeed discuss the expansion of the EB consist by at least one sleeper and a CCC and possibly one coach. I've also spoken with one Amtrak VP who is very much pro EB expansion. Additionally, marketing has promised they can sell the space. However, as far as I'm aware of, adding capacity to the EB never progressed beyond general discussion and dreaming of the future. Many other plans are proposed and discussed and have initiated departmental reviews, budgeting and much more in depth planning. Adding cars to the EB never even made it into the 2nd round of the RPI last year. All I'm trying to point out is that, from my own involvement with the EB, increasing capacity hasn't yet reached a serious level of planning.

I'll be the first to admit that it wouldn't be the first time that Amtrak has announced something, and then changed its mind. For example, putting the Skyline connection into the National Time Table and then canceling the train before it ever ran; or actually selling tickets to a new LD train out of Boston, before canceling it.

However, the ARRA documents clearly states the plan for EB improvements and even identify which cars will go to the builder. From the ARRA(page 22):

Expand Empire Builder Route: 5 Superliner I Sleepers (32014, 32040, 32046, 32049 and 32065) @ $1.073m; 1 Superliner II Sleeper (32112) @$1.055m.

If I remember correctly, there are something around 36 superliners involved in the stimulus funded repair work going on at Beachgrove?

No, way to high. There are 21 Superliner cars slated for repairs.

Now, having said that, there is the consideration that some of the single level equipment being repaired and built could replace superliners on some routes and free up even more.

Actually some of the talk is about freeing up Superliners to restore the Cardinal back to Superliner equipment. Mind you that's been talked about for several years now and so far has not happened. But I believe that it is still on the wish list.

 

[lyke99]

Forgive me, but aside from creating jobs for the switching/maintenance/cleaning/whatever crew, what does dropping cars off mid-route do? For instance, the Empire Builder drops a car off at St. Paul in the summer, why not keep it all the way to Seattle or Portland and just sell seats in the extra capacity? It's one thing IMHO if they connect like the Eagle/Sunset does, but just leaving a revenue-generator sitting somewhere unused?

The other thing to keep in mind here is that taking that coach to the west coast vs. dropping it at St. Paul would require five cars whereas the current drop coach (Trains 807 and 808) requires two cars. There might not be three extra Superliner coaches to make that happen.

 

[jis]

Actually some of the talk is about freeing up Superliners to restore the Cardinal back to Superliner equipment. Mind you that's been talked about for several years now and so far has not happened. But I believe that it is still on the wish list.

According to talks in the corridors and also in a formal talk by Don Phillips at the NARP tri-state meeting in Philly yesterday the Superliner daily Cardinal between WAS and some point in the midwest is likely to happen within the foreseeable future, i.e. 12 to 18 months. One thing that is being explored is whether the main train should be sent to St Louis/Kansas City with only a connector going to Chicago.

I came to learn in sidebar discussions that potentially this will release enough Viewliners which when added to one more taken out of the reserve pool, and some schedule juggling that will allow three Viewliners in both Silver trains, which will in turn enable splitting of both at JAX for service down FEC without clobbering capacity to Orlando.

The other thing that people are talking much more seriously about is the idea of splitting the LSL at Toledo and sending one section to Boston and the other to New York via Pittsburgh. The Boston section will have a coach only connector from Albany to New York, whether any cars will be transferred at Albany is YTBD. Such might happen in order to retain the upstate New York to NYC frequency that would otherwise be lost.

From the rumors heard on the street department ... Apparently there is an epic struggle going on within Amtrak between the "No new trains no way no how" camp (the luddites) supposedly led by chief of operations Crosbie, and a bunch of new out of the box thinkers who are dreaming up all these schemes, and politically the luddites are apparently starting to lose a few, which is good news. If the characterization of Crosbie is accurate (and I don't know that for sure) then it would seem to me that he really needs to be replaced.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

So, if additional cars (the newly rebuilt Superliners Sleepers) are added to a LD train, increasing its sleeper capacity, those additional accommodations will, with great certainty, be all offered back at the lowest bucket? I think that was root point of the original question.

I will admit this is only a guess, but I would think that if a particular train's sleeper accommodations are already selling at the highest bucket, an additional car would still be sold at the highest bucket too. I mean, even if Amtrak resets the break points between buckets because of the additional car, I would think that new sales will still be into the high bucket since a 95% full LD train would fall back to say 80% full, but not 5% full.

 

[MattW]

So they want to puts Superliners on the Cardinal and truncate it to Washington D.C.? Did I read that right? That has got to be the STUPIDEST thing to do to the train since chopping it to 3 days/week service! Didn't someone post in another topic the figures that showed when the Cardinal was re-extended to NYP, the ridership shot up? Yes, it'll be daily which will be good, but will that really make up for the ridership that will be lost north of Washington???

 

[AlanB]

So, if additional cars (the newly rebuilt Superliners Sleepers) are added to a LD train, increasing its sleeper capacity, those additional accommodations will, with great certainty, be all offered back at the lowest bucket? I think that was root point of the original question.
I will admit this is only a guess, but I would think that if a particular train's sleeper accommodations are already selling at the highest bucket, an additional car would still be sold at the highest bucket too. I mean, even if Amtrak resets the break points between buckets because of the additional car, I would think that new sales will still be into the high bucket since a 95% full LD train would fall back to say 80% full, but not 5% full.

Please note that the numbers that I'm providing are not real numbers, just guesses on my part.

That said, currently Amtrak has 13 roomettes to sell on the Portland EB sleeper, room #1 is the attendant's room. During off peak season, Amtrak might put up 3 rooms at the D low bucket, 2 at the C (middle) bucket, 3 at the B bucket, 2 at the A bucket, and 3 at the S (high) bucket price. During the peak season, you might find only 1 room at D bucket, 2 at C, 3 at B, 3 at A, and 4 at S.

By adding a second sleeper, the above scenario's would receive double the number of rooms at each bucket level. Therefore there would be more low bucket rooms available, more mid-bucket rooms available, and yes more high bucket rooms too.

 

[AlanB]

So they want to puts Superliners on the Cardinal and truncate it to Washington D.C.? Did I read that right? That has got to be the STUPIDEST thing to do to the train since chopping it to 3 days/week service! Didn't someone post in another topic the figures that showed when the Cardinal was re-extended to NYP, the ridership shot up? Yes, it'll be daily which will be good, but will that really make up for the ridership that will be lost north of Washington???

Yes, you read that right.

And yes, sending the Cardinal to NY did indeed boost its ridership. And no doubt some of that would be lost unfortunately; one of many reasons for the LSL split to provide direct sleeper service between Philly & Chicago. However, a daily Cardinal would almost certainly make up for that loss and then still see decent if not substantial increases in ridership and revenue.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Forgive me, but aside from creating jobs for the switching/maintenance/cleaning/whatever crew, what does dropping cars off mid-route do? For instance, the Empire Builder drops a car off at St. Paul in the summer, why not keep it all the way to Seattle or Portland and just sell seats in the extra capacity? It's one thing IMHO if they connect like the Eagle/Sunset does, but just leaving a revenue-generator sitting somewhere unused?

Amtrak inherited a situation in which there is more travel from Chicago to St. Paul and also CHI to Denver, then to the west coast on those specific routes.(CZ abd EB)

There is nothing unusual about adding and subtracting cars en route due to population, ridership,demographics,etc. If one were to see a pre Amtrak timetable(at least through the late 50's) the amount of cars added and subtracted en route would be one of the first things to hit your face.

In 1957 the CZ had about 11 cars from CHI to SF. The Denver Zephyr had about as many just to Denver and some to Colorado Springs. Amtrak inherited the Denver Zephyr as well as a CHI to SF train. So that extra car from CHI to DEN is no biggie at all. The Chi St. Paul route had about eight trains, four of them going on to the west coast.

Th Denver Zephyr was marketed much for the overnight business traveler.Of cours the cars which went on to Colorado Springs were used more by vacationers.

The pre Amtrak Cresent used to switch cars around, too, and a lot more than just New York to Atlanta.

Nothing unusual.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Please note that the numbers that I'm providing are not real numbers, just guesses on my part.
That said, currently Amtrak has 13 roomettes to sell on the Portland EB sleeper, room #1 is the attendant's room. During off peak season, Amtrak might put up 3 rooms at the D low bucket, 2 at the C (middle) bucket, 3 at the B bucket, 2 at the A bucket, and 3 at the S (high) bucket price. During the peak season, you might find only 1 room at D bucket, 2 at C, 3 at B, 3 at A, and 4 at S.

By adding a second sleeper, the above scenario's would receive double the number of rooms at each bucket level. Therefore there would be more low bucket rooms available, more mid-bucket rooms available, and yes more high bucket rooms too.

OK, let me try to do a better job explaining what I am saying (writing).

Let's start with there are currently 13 roomettes. And if they are currently selling in the highest bucket, this means that at least 10 of the 13 have been already sold.

Amtrak adds a second sleeper, bringing the total number of roomettes to 26. Now, originally, only 3 rooms were at the lowest D bucket. With the second sleeper, let's assume that there would now be 6 rooms in the lowest D bucket.

However, as mentioned there are already 10 sold. 10 is more than the new 6 bucket D rooms. So, adding a second car will not yield the availability of any new D bucket rooms.

Amtrak adds a third sleeper, bringing the total number of roomettes to 39. With the third sleeper, let's assume that there would now be 9 rooms in the lowest D bucket.

However, 10 is still more than the new 9 bucket D rooms. So, adding a third car will not yield the availability of any new D bucket rooms.

Amtrak adds a forth sleeper, bringing the total number of roomettes to 52. With the forth sleeper, let's assume that there would now be 12 rooms in the lowest D bucket.

Now, 10 is finally less than the new 12 bucket D rooms. However, remember originally, 10 was the minimum sold to get up to the highest bucket. You could have had all 13 sold. With this, 13 is more than the new 12 bucket D rooms.

The result, if you didn't loose you, is that Amtrak would need to go from 1 sleeper to at least 4 sleepers, if not 5 sleepers, so that there would have to be more lowest bucket D rooms. I think. :blink:

 

[Trogdor]

I think you're assuming too much about how buckets are allocated, and how future capacity expansion will impact the bucket levels of rooms on individual trains.

 

[EB_OBS]

The result, if you didn't loose you, is that Amtrak would need to go from 1 sleeper to at least 4 sleepers, if not 5 sleepers, so that there would have to be more lowest bucket D rooms. I think. :blink:

Which makes absolutely no sense from a business point of view. The entire point of adding and removing capacity is to predict as close as possible real demand. You don't want to constantly have too many unsold rooms and you also don't want to constantly have sold out cars many months in advance IF the result is frequently turning away revenue.

Some of the experts can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Amtrak does have different fares for peak season vs. off-peak season. So the low bucket fare in July will automatically be higher than the low bucket fare in February. You don't put on 4 sleepers so you can sell more rooms at the low bucket fare. You're just going to end up with 1/2 full cars most of the time. Not exactly the ideal way to generate revenue. Predicting needed capacity is both an art and a science. The unexpected always happens, i.e. groups. In Amtrak's case it's further hindered by the shortage of equipment. There may indeed be needed increases in capacity but without the equipment it's not gonna happen.

 

[EB_OBS]

Once the repaired Superliners are back in service, if capacities are increase on any trains, I'd predict very little increased availability of sleeper accommodations on some trains, such as the Empire Builder. Especially during peak season. The EB is sold out so often during the summer that it only seems logical that many travelers are actually unable to procure tickets on the dates they prefer to travel. Some may manage by traveling on different dates but I'd be willing to bet a good number of people end up choosing another mode of transportation when trains are sold out for several surrounding days also.

So adding a car to a train where the demand is very high will indeed allow for more passengers to purchase tickets but I foresee the competition for the space to remain unchanged.

 

[user 1215]

What sort of state of repair are these 20+ Superliners in? Major structural repairs after an accordian derailment or interior refurbs?

 

[jis]

What sort of state of repair are these 20+ Superliners in? Major structural repairs after an accordian derailment or interior refurbs?

Some are going through significant structural repairs, a few costing over $2 million as I understand it.

 

[EB_OBS]

Most were damaged from wrecks or fire. Since the cost was so high to repair they've just sat for years.

 

[MrFSS]

They have had many wrecked Superliner cars stored "out back" at Beech Grove for years.

These pictures were taken in 2007 and 2008.