Return to Denver Union Station

[Sactobob]

... RTD's commuter rail lines, including the line to Denver International Airport, are scheduled to start operations in 2016." ... There will be a 2+ year gap to the start of service on the regional rail lines, so Amtrak will likely have lots of room for people to wait until then.zz

I'm pretty sure the two year wait will only be for the airport (east) line. There are already 4 lines in operation - Mineral (south), Lincoln (southeast), 9 Mile (SE) and Golden (west); and I'm sure they will move to the new station as soon as possible.

When you say commuter rail, you must be referring to light rail. I've heard mention of commuter rail (similar to MARC, Metra, Metrolink, NM Railrunner, etc), but I'm sure that is even further out in the future. Denver needs a commuter rail line between Ft. Collins and at least Colorado Springs.

The four lines mentioned above are all light rail lines, and the terminus for them will stay where it is now across a plaza to the west of the train shed. They will not relocate to the train shed, which will be reserved for Amtrak and the commuter lines, including the one to the airport,

 

[fredevad]

So will the CZ still have to back in to the new station?

 

[afigg]

I'm pretty sure the two year wait will only be for the airport (east) line. There are already 4 lines in operation - Mineral (south), Lincoln (southeast), 9 Mile (SE) and Golden (west); and I'm sure they will move to the new station as soon as possible.

When you say commuter rail, you must be referring to light rail. I've heard mention of commuter rail (similar to MARC, Metra, Metrolink, NM Railrunner, etc), but I'm sure that is even further out in the future. Denver needs a commuter rail line between Ft. Collins and at least Colorado Springs.

No, Denver FasTracks under the Eagle P3 project is building 39 miles of electrified commuter rail lines, ie heavy rail. If you look at the information on the FasTracks website and documents, the East line to the airport, the Gold line, and the Northwest line Westminister segment will all be electrified. In the Eagle P3 summer 2013 newsletter, there is a photo of one of the first 4 test vehicles. RTD is buying 56 SilverLiner Vs for those lines, built in the same plant that built the SilverLiner Vs for SEPTA. I would expect the RTD version will be modified to run off of 60 Hz catenary as they won't need legacy 25 Hz capability.

What Denver is doing in building out a large transit system is quite impressive as is the speed at which it is getting built. It will be a somewhat unusual system with a light rail network on the south half of the metro area and a electrified regional rail system on the north half with a BRT line throw into the mix. They may be calling the northern lines commuter lines, but if they run those electrified lines 7 days a week with decent service frequencies on weekends as the system matures, I would label it as a regional rail system.

As the Denver rail transit system is built out, it will be a logical step to then look at adding intercity rail service to it. Maybe Colorado would support adding Amtrak corridor services or run their own in-state service lines to Ft. Collins and Colorado Springs, although that gets tied up into getting cooperation from the freight rail companies if CO does not build all new tracks.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I agree the train shed looks ugly and disjointed in that location. However, most of the other news from Denver sounds good to me. I live in a city that's maybe twice the size of Denver and yet we have no light rail, no commuter rail, and no hope of regional rail. We have six freeways but not even a single carpool lane. Our primary link to the next big city is perpetually clogged with traffic and the brand new tollway doesn't start or end anywhere near our city limits. We also have several vacant lots and defunct gas stations the Mexican bus lines use. To be fair we do have a metro bus line that seems well intentioned enough, but also completely incapable of successfully managing our ever growing suburban sprawl. Like Denver we have lots of great ideas, but unlike Denver we seem to have perpetual difficulty putting most of them into practical use. I'd say that a big part of problem is that we have to make do with a state government run by clueless indifferent hicks like good old Rick Perry. Living in Texas can be a confusing experience in some ways, and a painful mind destroying lobotomy in others.

 

[jis]

So will the CZ still have to back in to the new station?

It is still a stub end station.

 

[PRR 60]

I didn't realize that Denver was buying Silverliner V's. Those are not the most attractive cars on the rails, but they have been well received in Philadelphia and are comfortable. It will be odd to see what up to now were strictly east coast rail cars operating with the Rocky Mountains in the background.

The rail line will be a huge plus for Denver International. Access in and out of the city, a chore now, will be a breeze. I suspect the local cab drivers will be less thrilled.

 

[jis]

I suspect that the door design and interior furnishing will be different from the Silverliner V cars for the Eagle P3 Service. I will also be surprised if they are called Sivlerliner V in their incarnation in Denver.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The rail line will be a huge plus for Denver International. Access in and out of the city, a chore now, will be a breeze. I suspect the local cab drivers will be less thrilled.

I believe someone said airport taxi fares can run $75 each way or $150 round trip from the Denver airport. Even here in San Antonio where we still have one of those rare in-city airports it's $50 each way or $100 round trip to reach downtown. Even for a cynic like me this kind of government sanctioned price gouging is rather shocking. These days I try to offer rides whenever I can so nobody has to fund the Taxi Mafia.

 

[afigg]

I suspect that the door design and interior furnishing will be different from the Silverliner V cars for the Eagle P3 Service. I will also be surprised if they are called Sivlerliner V in their incarnation in Denver.

There is a video of the RTD pilot test cars operating under power in Korea. Comparing the video to pics of the Silverliner V, the door design looks to be strictly high level which makes sense as RTD is building an all new system with same height platforms. Otherwise looks very similar to the SEPTA Silverliner Vs. I also would not expect the Denver cars to be called Silverliner Vs as that would mean nothing to the Denver market. Maybe RTD will have a naming contest for the new EMU line.

But someone taking a SEPTA Silverliner V to the Philly airport, then flying to Denver, and getting on the train to Union Station in 2016 may notice that the train cars look oddly familiar. Skimming the FEIS documents, BTW, the 18 mile North Metro rail line (aiming for a 2018 completion) will be electrified with EMUs while the 42 mile Northwest rail line beyond the electrified ~6 mile segment that is under construction will use DMUs. So, unless the miles include overlapping lines, my math says that Denver is building ~57 miles of electrified commuter/regional rail lines which may be the most new miles of electrified commuter lines we've seen in the US in some time.

 

[PaulM]

The line to Denver International will be true commuter rail, not light rail.

Looking at their website I see that now.

 

[PaulM]

The four lines mentioned above are all light rail lines, and the terminus for them will stay where it is now across a plaza to the west of the train shed. They will not relocate to the train shed, which will be reserved for Amtrak and the commuter lines, including the one to the airport,

Bad news as far as I'm concerned. I guess I was making the assumption that the new station/transportation center wouldn't be a step backwards from when light rail terminated at the station. Its gate was just past the Chief Connection gate (just joking).

 

[Nathanael]

Skimming the FEIS documents, BTW, the 18 mile North Metro rail line (aiming for a 2018 completion) will be electrified with EMUs while the 42 mile Northwest rail line beyond the electrified ~6 mile segment that is under construction will use DMUs. So, unless the miles include overlapping lines, my math says that Denver is building ~57 miles of electrified commuter/regional rail lines which may be the most new miles of electrified commuter lines we've seen in the US in some time.

The NW rail line is completely up in the air, and in fact has been repeatedly threatened with cancellation. It has extremely strong support from the cities along the line so I think it will eventually get done. But I wouldn't make any bets on how it will be operated when it finally gets built. Current funding would only finish it in 2042, and the cost benefit analyses for electric vs. diesel are gonna look really different by the time ground is broken for an extension past Westminster.
Anyway, the North Metro line will probably be completed partway (to 124th Ave) by 2018, since contracts are due to be signed later this month. East Rail and Gold Line and the stub of NW Rail to Westminster, and the light rail "I-225" extension are all fully contracted and due to open in 2016. West Rail light rail has already opened. There is a little overlap in the lines but not much, all near Union Station. So yeah, Denver is *massively* expanding electrified rail, the single biggest expansion in any city in the US.

 

[SubwayNut]

Anyone know if RTD will be allowed to run there EMUs OPTO or will they have to have a conductor?

The reason I ask is of the new DMU commuter rail lines that have popped up I know that the riverLINE, Spinter Austin's MetroRail are OPTO but Portland's West Coast Express, much to my surprise has both a conductor and an engineer. Don't know of new systems where RTD's Commuter Rail falls into.

 

[railiner]

So will the CZ still have to back in to the new station?

It is still a stub end station.

Even when it wasn't...when the tracks crossed the Cherry Creek and continued south, the CZ still had to either wye before or after arriving. The only route accessible from the south end was the Joint Line toward Colorado Springs and Pueblo.

 

[June the Coach Rider]

I am on the CZ in early February, just wondered if the move would be done so I could see the new stuff.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I am on the CZ in early February, just wondered if the move would be done so I could see the new stuff.

Looks like you might be the one telling us.

 

[eblkheart]

As a local, the thing that concerns me is where the Union Station parking will be. I know that the old parking lot is going to be changed to a plaza of some sort, but I can't find anything else on it. Anyone know?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

As a local, the thing that concerns me is where the Union Station parking will be. I know that the old parking lot is going to be changed to a plaza of some sort, but I can't find anything else on it. Anyone know?

I can understand the concern. Here in San Antonio we have a very attractive train station that lacks even a single parking spot for Amtrak passengers. The closest overnight parking spot is several blocks away, costs $10 per day, and comes with no promises and no legal liability to protect you if anything happens to your car. Hopefully Denver is not dumb enough to end up in the same situation as us. At a minimum you'll also have buses and commuter rail to work with. Here in San Antonio we don't have anything but the train and the Taxi Mafia at our station.

 

[SubwayNut]

What about VIA Bus in San Antonio?

I took it down from your one youth hostel that I was staying in to catch the early morning Texas Eagle. It did the job.

 

[Nathanael]

I think you'll have to use one of the extremely numerous public pay parking lots within a few blocks. Or, as noted, take a train or bus in from an outlying point.

 

[Shawn Ryu]

Kinda OT but will Denver's commuter rail share its track with freight trains like Metro North and LIRR does? Albeit those two do it rarely, during rush hour.

 

[railiner]

Kinda OT but will Denver's commuter rail share its track with freight trains like Metro North and LIRR does? Albeit those two do it rarely, during rush hour.

One of the lines mentioned, was the BNSF line to Westminster.....it continues to Boulder, Fort Collins, Cheyenne, and joins BN's heavier route further north. I don't believe there are very many frieight trains at all on that route. Should not be a problem sharing it with commuter trains....

 

[Shawn Ryu]

What about on their electrified lines?

I believe freight trains run on Metra electric line tracks. Or only on the parallel non electrified tracks?

 

[railiner]

I just took a thorough look at their Fastrack website, and it appears that none of their projected routes use the busier freight train routes out of Denver....the 'Gold Line' is the route of mainly beer trains to Coors Brewery in Golden. The 'North Line' is a little used UP secondary line north. And the 'East Line' probably only shares part of the UP Kansas right of way, probably will have its own tracks parallel until it swings north towards the airport...

The busiest freight lines don't seem to have any commuter trains planned....those would be the BNSF and UP routes that the CZ uses, the UP mainline toward Cheyenne, and the Joint Line going south....

 

[rickycourtney]

Amtrak's new timetable for the California Zephyr mentions the move back to Denver Union Station:

New Denver Station Location

Amtrak will move the California Zephyr from the current Denver location at 21st and Wewatta Streets into Denver Union Station,1701 Wynkoop Street in February 2014 on a date to be announced.