RFP issued for Amfleet I replacement

[Seaboard92]

Statler actually has quite a few operations in the USA/Canada now that one sits and thinks about it. Chances are they could do a good job at it. However I hope the entire contract goes to Siemens but I'm bias I have 1,000 shares in my portfolio of Siemens.

 

[NSC1109]

Amtrak isn't going to choose anything for the Cascades, that will be a Washington/Oregon order.

Washington DOT stated that they're going to tack on to the Amtrak order, so in effect, Amtrak is going to choose for the Cascades.

 

[NSC1109]

Statler actually has quite a few operations in the USA/Canada now that one sits and thinks about it. Chances are they could do a good job at it. However I hope the entire contract goes to Siemens but I'm bias I have 1,000 shares in my portfolio of Siemens.

I agree. I think Siemens is the right choice, considering it will provide Amtrak with a large standard fleet like the Amfleets were in the '70s. They've shown they can handle it and I haven't heard anything bad about the Brightline cars.

 

[NSC1109]

I believe Stadler, in their plant in Europe, built eight cars for the Rocky Mountaineer. I am not sure of the configuration of these cars, but this could be a potential Superliner replacement? They do have a plant here in the US.

It's possible. The dimensions are roughly the same. The RM Goldleaf coaches are 89', while the Supers are 85. About the same width (10 ft), and the Goldleaf cars are two feet higher than the Supers, at just over 18'.

https://www.stadlerrail.com/media/pdf/wrm0816e.pdf
They haven't built anything other than coaches though in that config.

 

[Seaboard92]

It's possible. The dimensions are roughly the same. The RM Goldleaf coaches are 89', while the Supers are 85. About the same width (16 ft), and the Goldleaf cars are two feet higher than the Supers, at just over 18'.

To be honest I don't know how successful a Superliner at 18' would be. It's not just tunnels that can cause clearance issues but also, platform canopies, and bridges.

 

[NSC1109]

To be honest I don't know how successful a Superliner at 18' would be. It's not just tunnels that can cause clearance issues but also, platform canopies, and bridges.

Agreed. I’m fairly certain that unless the Supers are rebuilt, they will slowly be phased out of service in favor of longer single level trains.

 

[NeueAmtrakCalifornia]

After they merge with Bombardier's Rail Transport division they will have a bunch, almost all we are familiar with, since they are all 20th century technology products and derivatives based in North America. For single level cars, Comet/Horizon Cars anyone?

They'll most likely get the NJT bilevel cars at the very least. Them getting the Canadian BiLevels is up to whether the Canadian antitrust authorities will let them have the Thunder Bay plant. Alstom has three manufacturing sites in Canada (Brampton, Sorel-Tracy and Ottawa). As they have announced that they will retain the La Pocatiere plant, Canadian antitrust authorities will likely not want Alstom to have an outright monopoly on Canadian railcar manufacturing so pretty likely they will be forced to give up one of their plants in exchange for the La Pocatiere plant. As Alstom plans to invest heavily in Quebec, they can give away the Brampton plant (perhaps to Stadler, and Stadler having a Canadian plant would be perfect for when GO Transit announces rolling stock orders for their RER program, especially as it lies directly on the Kitchener line, and their KISS bi-level EMU would be well-suited for GO RER). This would leave the Thunder Bay and Kingston plants to be taken by someone else. I can see Siemens getting the Kingston plant (especially as VIA has selected Siemens as their go-to provider) and Hitachi getting the Thunder Bay plant (and thus the Canadian bilevels), which would align well with Hitachi Rail's plans concerning international expansion.

 

[railiner]

It's possible. The dimensions are roughly the same. The RM Goldleaf coaches are 89', while the Supers are 85. About the same width (16 ft), and the Goldleaf cars are two feet higher than the Supers, at just over 18'.

https://www.stadlerrail.com/media/pdf/wrm0816e.pdf
They haven't built anything other than coaches though in that config.

16 feet wide? I don't think so...somewhere between 10 feet and 10 feet 6 inches....

 

[west point]

About 18 foot Superliner type passenger cars. There are only 2 present Superliner route locations that I know of that could not operate them. That is Chicago Union station and Washington Union station. WASH due to CAT and Canopy clearances that will be corrected once the rebuilding of the platforms is complete raising the CAT and the second 1st street tunnel is build. Does anyone know of any present Superliner route that cannot operate with double stacks and 20 foot auto racks? That is clearance diagrams of plate "H"

Auto train might be a great route for 18 footers. However they would not be able to go to WASH since the 1st street tunnel does not have that clearance.
But the Chicago clearances are a very big problem. If the future possibilities of HSR into Chicago comes about then those clearances below the CAT will be needed anyway.

Now we will have to admit that some of the western stations with off main track platforms might have to trim overhead canopies. But that will be a minor expense compared to the Chicago mess.

But until Chicago is fixed there are only 3 present Amtrak routes that could operate with 18 footers. Auto Train, Sunset, and Coast Starlight. And for equipment interchange that would require Sunset SLs restored from NOL to Sanford / Orlando. Plus somewhow get those cars for major overhauls back to Beech Grove.

Longer range befoe Chicago is fixed maybe a restoration of the Royal Palm From Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit / Toledo, Indianaopolis -- Cincinnattii - Atlanta, -- Florida.

 

[NSC1109]

16 feet wide? I don't think so...somewhere between 10 feet and 10 feet 6 inches....

Yeahhhhh I looked at the wrong line. My apologies! It has been corrected.

 

[railiner]

Now we will have to admit that some of the western stations with off main track platforms might have to trim overhead canopies.

The first pair of those 'ultra-domes', built for Princess Cruise Lines, from former gallery cars, was on a nationwide tour for travel agents back in the '80's. Before they could park them on the "Uncle Sam Spur" at Denver Union Station, they had to cut back the canopy. They had already cut back the other canopies to accommodate the Superliner's.

 

[jis]

They'll most likely get the NJT bilevel cars at the very least. Them getting the Canadian BiLevels is up to whether the Canadian antitrust authorities will let them have the Thunder Bay plant. Alstom has three manufacturing sites in Canada (Brampton, Sorel-Tracy and Ottawa). As they have announced that they will retain the La Pocatiere plant, Canadian antitrust authorities will likely not want Alstom to have an outright monopoly on Canadian railcar manufacturing so pretty likely they will be forced to give up one of their plants in exchange for the La Pocatiere plant. As Alstom plans to invest heavily in Quebec, they can give away the Brampton plant (perhaps to Stadler, and Stadler having a Canadian plant would be perfect for when GO Transit announces rolling stock orders for their RER program, especially as it lies directly on the Kitchener line, and their KISS bi-level EMU would be well-suited for GO RER). This would leave the Thunder Bay and Kingston plants to be taken by someone else. I can see Siemens getting the Kingston plant (especially as VIA has selected Siemens as their go-to provider) and Hitachi getting the Thunder Bay plant (and thus the Canadian bilevels), which would align well with Hitachi Rail's plans concerning international expansion.

All that sounds good, but in this day and age, IPR transactions are not driven by plants. It is quite conceivable that Alstom gets access to the bi-level IPR without getting the plant. It is not a huge problem converting another plant to build the bi-levels. So I think that part of the analysis is flawed at best. Indeed the IPR could be nonexclusive to Alstom, i.e. the Canadians can require giving non-exclusive access to that IPR to another Canadian company, perhaps with the plant in question. That would in general be good for competition instead of just having a single source for those cars.

 

[NeueAmtrakCalifornia]

All that sounds good, but in this day and age, IPR transactions are not driven by plants. It is quite conceivable that Alstom gets access to the bi-level IPR without getting the plant. It is not a huge problem converting another plant to build the bi-levels. So I think that part of the analysis is flawed at best. Indeed the IPR could be nonexclusive to Alstom, i.e. the Canadians can require giving non-exclusive access to that IPR to another Canadian company, perhaps with the plant in question. That would in general be good for competition instead of just having a single source for those cars.

Given that the Canadian bilevel orders are what's been keeping the Thunder Bay plant going, should Alstom get the design then that's basically it for them, and the residents at Thunder Bay are gonna fight tooth and nail to keep the plant up. Guess we can have the Canadian bilevel car design shared between Hitachi and Alstom. Though probably I expect Hitachi to the primary handler whilst Alstom can handle the Quebec-based orders of it

 

[jis]

Given that the Canadian bilevel orders are what's been keeping the Thunder Bay plant going, should Alstom get the design then that's basically it for them, and the residents at Thunder Bay are gonna fight tooth and nail to keep the plant up. Guess we can have the Canadian bilevel car design shared between Hitachi and Alstom. Though probably I expect Hitachi to the primary handler whilst Alstom can handle the Quebec-based orders of it

Considering that Hitachi and Bombardier are in partnership on several European large deals including the bid for HS-2 in UK, after Bombardier Transportation and Alstom merge it is Alstom and Hitachi that will be in those partnerships. It involved a large Trenitalia order in addition to the HS-2 bid among others. I wonder if the Europeans will ask for some changes there. So far they haven;t said much AFAIK.

 

[NeueAmtrakCalifornia]

Considering that Hitachi and Bombardier are in partnership on several European large deals including the bid for HS-2 in UK, after Bombardier Transportation and Alstom merge it is Alstom and Hitachi that will be in those partnerships. It involved a large Trenitalia order in addition to the HS-2 bid among others. I wonder if the Europeans will ask for some changes there. So far they haven;t said much AFAIK.

One of the conditions of the acquisition was that Bombardier gives away their Zefiro (in this case specifically to Hitachi) and Talent designs (I see this going to Hitachi) to another company due to their overlap with the Avelia and Coradia+X'Trapolis designs respectively (as well as their Henningsdorf plant). Hitachi and Alstom aren't gonna be partnered in the HS2 bid (besides Alstom has their own HSR design with the Avelia). Very likely the Europeans will ask for more conditions down the line, especially in Spain, the UK, Germany, Italy and even Poland as Alstom and Bombardier are pretty well-built up there. This would include limiting what designs and facilities Alstom can get out of Bombardier. Aside from the Zefiro and Talent, there's no way they would let Alstom have the Movia, TRAXX, Flexity and TWINDEXX designs as Alstom has designs that overlap with them (Metropolis, Prima, Citadis, and bilevel Coradia+X'Trapolis respectively)

 

[20th Century Rider]

75 trainsets or equivalent in individual cars to replace Amfleet I/Metroliner fleet

News release appears to have been made Jan 20, 2019 or one and a half years ago. I am not a fan of Amfleet because they are claustrophobic and tight for seating and overhead bins. I don't see the rationale for that design to begin with when the whole idea of taking the train is to provide more passenger space. Is there more current news than this???
https://www.railwayage.com/news/after-40-plus-years-amfleet-i-replacements-sought/

 

[PVD]

Back in the day, the thought was they looked modern and streamlined sort of like an airplane fuselage...Obviously that thinking has come and gone., for the most part, but the corrugated stainless still has some fans...

 

[jis]

One of the conditions of the acquisition was that Bombardier gives away their Zefiro (in this case specifically to Hitachi) and Talent designs (I see this going to Hitachi) to another company due to their overlap with the Avelia and Coradia+X'Trapolis designs respectively (as well as their Henningsdorf plant). Hitachi and Alstom aren't gonna be partnered in the HS2 bid (besides Alstom has their own HSR design with the Avelia). Very likely the Europeans will ask for more conditions down the line, especially in Spain, the UK, Germany, Italy and even Poland as Alstom and Bombardier are pretty well-built up there. This would include limiting what designs and facilities Alstom can get out of Bombardier. Aside from the Zefiro and Talent, there's no way they would let Alstom have the Movia, TRAXX, Flexity and TWINDEXX designs as Alstom has designs that overlap with them (Metropolis, Prima, Citadis, and bilevel Coradia+X'Trapolis respectively)

Very good info. Thanks!

What I find interesting is that the Europeans are willing to give away a huge stash of European technology to a Japanese company in order to try to maintain one globally competitive European company. It would be ironic if tomorrow Hitachi eats the new Alstom's lunch using the suite of Bombardier technology that was essentially gifted to them by the Europeans, and Europe is left with nothing, or are stuck bailing out Alstom one more time..

 

[MARC Rider]

I am not a fan of Amfleet because they are claustrophobic and tight for seating and overhead bins. I don't see the rationale for that design to begin with when the whole idea of taking the train is to provide more passenger space. Is there more current news than this???

Actually, I have to disagree. I don't find the Amfleets to be particularly claustrophobic. The seating space is as roomy as the heritage cars they replaced, and I've had no problems with the capacity of the overhead luggage racks. For one thing, they're open racks, not bins, so I can easily fit a pair of 210 cm cross country skis up there. There's plenty enough room for any kind of suitcase that someone can reasonably carry aboard, there's a railing that keeps luggage from sliding off the rack, and it seems to me that the racks are a bit lower and are easier to hoist stuff on to, as opposed to old fashioned open luggage racks of the type that you can still find on the old single-level MARC cars. I also like the indirect lighting, which makes the interior much more restful and calming than, say, the Acelas, whose bright overhead lights and white walls has all the ambiance of those old single-level MARC commuter cars.

That said, the Amfleet windows are definitely too small, and the setup on the Am-1s, where one row of seats in the middle has absolutely no window, would be a bit claustrophobic for those forced to sit in that row.

However, given that these cars were put into service in 1975 and are still running strong is pretty amazing. I hope that when they're retired, a lot of them end up in museums and on heritage railways so that future generations can see what we rode on for close to 50 years.[/QUOTE]

 

[NeueAmtrakCalifornia]

Very good info. Thanks!

What I find interesting is that the Europeans are willing to give away a huge stash of European technology to a Japanese company in order to try to maintain one globally competitive European company. It would be ironic if tomorrow Hitachi eats the new Alstom's lunch using the suite of Bombardier technology that was essentially gifted to them by the Europeans, and Europe is left with nothing, or are stuck bailing out Alstom one more time..

They did let Hitachi buy AnsaldoBreda+STS (the only other company who would have brought it would have been CRRC, which was the catalyst for Alstom's failed merger with Siemens and now their acquisition of Bombardier). Hitachi has stated that the parts of Europe they desire to serve are the German, Benelux and Scandinavian markets (in addition to the existing UK and Italian markets). For Germany, I see Hitachi getting most of Bombardier's facilities (including their Kassel and Bautzen plants), Siemens gets some (including their Henningsdorf plant), and Alstom gets the rest (such as the Görlitz plant). For Austria and Switzerland, I don't really see Alstom really breaking into those two markets, so their facilities in Villeneuve and Zürich Switzerland and Vienna Austria facilities can be taken by Hitachi. Hitachi can serve the Benelux market by acquiring Bombardier's Crespin France plant. Scandinavia is gonna be complicated as both Bombardier and Alstom have a sizeable number of facilities but they're all service centers. Perhaps what could be done is Hitachi to get Bombardier's four Västerås facilities (including their manufacturing facility), their Göteborg (Alstom has two in the city), Luleå service center, and the Stockholm engineering site. The rest are a tossup between the two (though I could see Alstom get the Kalmar site and restart manufacturing there to compete with Hitachi should they get the Västerås plant as it turns out that all Bombardier did to the former Kalmar Verkstad site was reduce it to a service center).

 

[jis]

Here is a nice article in Railway Age on the Alstom acquisition of Bombardier Transportation and what concessions were agreed upon to meet EU's anti-competitive concerns.

https://www.railwayage.com/regulatory/ec-approves-alstoms-bombardier-transportation-acquisition/
There is another more recent article on Alstom's concerns with Bombardier Transportation's poor market results.

https://www.railwayage.com/cs/alsto...ier-transportation-results-in-takeover-talks/
Mods: It might be time to split this Alstom-Bomnbardier thing into a separate thread since it has little to do with Amtrak or Amfleet I replacement except perhaps peripherally, while it has immense effect on the the worldwide rail equipment market scene.

 

[railiner]

Actually, I have to disagree. I don't find the Amfleets to be particularly claustrophobic. The seating space is as roomy as the heritage cars they replaced, and I've had no problems with the capacity of the overhead luggage racks. For one thing, they're open racks, not bins, so I can easily fit a pair of 210 cm cross country skis up there. There's plenty enough room for any kind of suitcase that someone can reasonably carry aboard, there's a railing that keeps luggage from sliding off the rack, and it seems to me that the racks are a bit lower and are easier to hoist stuff on to, as opposed to old fashioned open luggage racks of the type that you can still find on the old single-level MARC cars. I also like the indirect lighting, which makes the interior much more restful and calming than, say, the Acelas, whose bright overhead lights and white walls has all the ambiance of those old single-level MARC commuter cars.

That said, the Amfleet windows are definitely too small, and the setup on the Am-1s, where one row of seats in the middle has absolutely no window, would be a bit claustrophobic for those forced to sit in that row.

However, given that these cars were put into service in 1975 and are still running strong is pretty amazing. I hope that when they're retired, a lot of them end up in museums and on heritage railways so that future generations can see what we rode on for close to 50 years.

[/QUOTE]
Totally agree with your observation...I like the Amfleet design very much. They still seem 'modern' to my eye. I think the overhead racks are roomy enough to crawl into, and sleep in...and indeed before they installed those extra 'baffles', some folks did. I like the original carpeted and flat ceiling panels better than when they were 'modernized'. I find the indirect 'cove lighting' restful, too. And the steady 'whoosh' from the A/C vents blankets other sounds to put me right to sleep. And I'm one of those PVD referenced above, as liking the corrugated and polished stainless steel look...

 

[cocojacoby]

About 18 foot Superliner type passenger cars. There are only 2 present Superliner route locations that I know of that could not operate them. That is Chicago Union station and Washington Union station. WASH due to CAT and Canopy clearances that will be corrected once the rebuilding of the platforms is complete raising the CAT and the second 1st street tunnel is build. Does anyone know of any present Superliner route that cannot operate with double stacks and 20 foot auto racks? That is clearance diagrams of plate "H"

Do you think it's possible to just lower the tracks in Chicago Union Station? Would there be many obstructions a couple of feet under the tracks?

If Amtrak did go this way the efficiency would be really impressive. It would be like putting one Viewliner sleeper on top of another (maybe minus two roomettes for the stairwell). You could even have pass-throughs on both levels.

 

[Seaboard92]

Do you think it's possible to just lower the tracks in Chicago Union Station? Would there be many obstructions a couple of feet under the tracks?

If Amtrak did go this way the efficiency would be really impressive. It would be like putting one Viewliner sleeper on top of another (maybe minus two roomettes for the stair well. You could even have pass-throughs on both levels.

The only reason I think they would have a lot of trouble with this is the fact that CUS is one of the busiest stations in the system. On the southern side you have 12 LD's, 8 MI trains, 8 STL Trains, and 8 IL Trains. And lets not forget the Empire Builder sends two trains thru the station daily, and one Hiawatha set goes to the yard once a day. Then you have the gigantic amount of Metra BNSF line trains using the south side. And a few SWS, and heritage corridor trains. So lowering the tracks would be very difficult without causing a massive service disruption of some sorts. Even if you raise clearances it will be a massive disruption.

 

[MisterUptempo]

The only reason I think they would have a lot of trouble with this is the fact that CUS is one of the busiest stations in the system. On the southern side you have 12 LD's, 8 MI trains, 8 STL Trains, and 8 IL Trains. And lets not forget the Empire Builder sends two trains thru the station daily, and one Hiawatha set goes to the yard once a day. Then you have the gigantic amount of Metra BNSF line trains using the south side. And a few SWS, and heritage corridor trains. So lowering the tracks would be very difficult without causing a massive service disruption of some sorts. Even if you raise clearances it will be a massive disruption.

Also, if things proceed as planned, the disused mail platform on the south side will be converted into two platforms servicing four through tracks. Access to those platforms, as well as the waiting areas for the trains using the new platforms, will be located under the tracks and platforms. Lowering the tracks will not happen.

If I'm not mistaken, didn't Amtrak and CDOT go after the owners of the buildings that sit atop the tracks to rebuild the ceilings that were crumbling and had caused injuries to passengers? Perhaps modification of the clearance could be part of the deal, if technically feasible?