RFP issued for Amfleet I replacement

[me_little_me]

It takes some nerve to not only insult Amtrak management employees (which I’m guessing you’ve never met) but then also to completely dismiss the struggles faced by those with disabilities saying they should only have access to a small fraction of the facilities that an able bodied person should enjoy.

That was no insult to those with disabilities. It's not an "advantage" to be able to go down the aisles of the further cars. That's like being able to walk through the interior hallways of the other decks of cruise ships which only have doors to rooms. The idea is that if the accessible rooms are close to the things that are needed (their rooms, the diner, the lounge), instead of spreading out one ADA room per car so those in the far cars have a long way to go to get to the diner and lounge while hoping the aisles are not blocked; close to the middle of the train so they are (hopefully) close to the station building and hopefully where there are ramps and other facilities so they don't have to wait forever to be helped on or off the train by employees also handling other passengers. For some, the freedom to not have to wait (or beg) for help would likely be liberating. For those unable to move themselves and lacking an assistant, the minimization of movement between station and train or between room and diner & lounge means they can be there faster with more dignity.

Do I use a wheelchair? No. Have I ever used one? Yes, for a period when I could not walk but had to take a plane trip. It was not a good experience - not that the others deliberately did anything, but having to ask for help to move anywhere whether the bathroom, the gate, the baggage claim, etc. was something that would have been considerably less humiliating, less stressful and less difficult if it were done better.

This is not like having wheelchair access in every classroom so any disabled person could attend any class and mix with all the students instead of being confined to a class full of others in a similar situation. The idea to make accessible rooms and coach seats in a convenient place and so that those who wanted to go to the amenity cars or board and deboard quickly and safely and with minimal personal travel could do so.

But then one needs to ask those who are confined to wheelchairs whether the right to be in any car during their trip is a need even if it means they might have to go longer distances both on the train and when going to/from the station or if they would prefer to be assured that they would be placed in a car easiest for them to have a more enjoyable trip instead of being confined to one car becaus no matter how wide the aisles, there is always something/someone in the way.

 

[Mailliw]

I actually like the idea of having multiple ADA rooms in the sleeper thats adjacent to the diner/lounge car. For Superliners that car is going to need an elevator though.

 

[sitzplatz17]

In a dream world a Superliner III order might include something like a 4 piece set of permanently coupled cars in a:
ADA Sleeper (with elevator) - Diner - Lounge - ADA coach (with elevator). The width between the cars would be fully wheelchair accessible allowing full movement between those four cars and elevator redundancy.

Since almost every LD superliner route has this order of cars in the consist (EB being the outlier) that set could be used pretty interchangeably.

This kind of set would allow significantly more movement through the train than currently can be done and allow flexibility by still added individual coaches and sleeper on each respective end.

ok, I’m done dreaming... back to Amfleet replacements!

 

[me_little_me]

In a dream world a Superliner III order might include something like a 4 piece set of permanently coupled cars in a:
ADA Sleeper (with elevator) - Diner - Lounge - ADA coach (with elevator). The width between the cars would be fully wheelchair accessible allowing full movement between those four cars and elevator redundancy.

Since almost every LD superliner route has this order of cars in the consist (EB being the outlier) that set could be used pretty interchangeably.

This kind of set would allow significantly more movement through the train than currently can be done and allow flexibility by still added individual coaches and sleeper on each respective end.

ok, I’m done dreaming... back to Amfleet replacements!

They don't have to be permanently coupled (if one car goes bad, you lose all of them) but they could have semi-permanent connections or just no doors or associated hardware to provide a wider passage.

 

[Andrew]

Does the fact that Amtrak used diesel locomotives for South of DC service make it more likely for Amtrak to order dual mode Charger locomotives?

 

[nullptr]

The NGEC 2021 annual meeting slides we made available at AASHTO - High Speed Rail - Section 305 Committee

Two of the slide shows are particularly relevant to the Amfleet replacement rfp. The amtrak slide show has some info on the order but no manufacturer information. They're still touting it as at a configurable order with dual-mode, electric, and diesel options. It also says "LAFO received" which I'm interpreting as "last and final offer(?)". Since it's not plural I'm guessing they're down to one manufacturer, but I may be reading too much into their wording. (Also has some photos of a half-painted ALC-42)
http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Docum...ts -NGEC 2021 Annual Meeting- George Hull.pdf
Also, the Metro north slides have more info on their dual mode order.
http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Docum...ilroad Siemens NGEC 2021 - Final.pdf

 

[Andrew]

The NGEC 2021 annual meeting slides we made available at AASHTO - High Speed Rail - Section 305 Committee

Two of the slide shows are particularly relevant to the Amfleet replacement rfp. The amtrak slide show has some info on the order but no manufacturer information. They're still touting it as at a configurable order with dual-mode, electric, and diesel options. It also says "LAFO received" which I'm interpreting as "last and final offer(?)". Since it's not plural I'm guessing they're down to one manufacturer, but I may be reading too much into their wording. (Also has some photos of a half-painted ALC-42)
http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Docum...ts -NGEC 2021 Annual Meeting- George Hull.pdf
Also, the Metro north slides have more info on their dual mode order.
http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Docum...ilroad Siemens NGEC 2021 - Final.pdf

Based on reading that document, I infer that Amtrak is going with one common trainset family, such as the Venture Coach made by Siemens, instead of a mixed fleet from several different companies. (If not the Venture Coach, than I predict that Amtrak will go with a family of trains made by Stadler).

 

[jiml]

Recent Stadler FLIRT review from Dylan Bowes. If (big if) Amtrak were to go with an MU for NEC non-Acela services, I'm not sure these would be a bad choice. It's important to note that many countries are using these trainsets, so not limited to restrictive British loading gauge.

 

[frequentflyer]

The NGEC 2021 annual meeting slides we made available at AASHTO - High Speed Rail - Section 305 Committee

Two of the slide shows are particularly relevant to the Amfleet replacement rfp. The amtrak slide show has some info on the order but no manufacturer information. They're still touting it as at a configurable order with dual-mode, electric, and diesel options. It also says "LAFO received" which I'm interpreting as "last and final offer(?)". Since it's not plural I'm guessing they're down to one manufacturer, but I may be reading too much into their wording. (Also has some photos of a half-painted ALC-42)
http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Docum...ts -NGEC 2021 Annual Meeting- George Hull.pdf
Also, the Metro north slides have more info on their dual mode order.
http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Docum...ilroad Siemens NGEC 2021 - Final.pdf

So what is a "trainset"? Just coaches or including locomotives?

 

[nullptr]

So what is a "trainset"? Just coaches or including locomotives?

I think the RFP was fairly flexible about what could be proposed, but yes electric/diesel/dual mode locomotives or multiple units were mentioned.

 

[Andrew]

I wonder if Amtrak will order Venture Coaches in EMU form, and when the order will be placed.

 

[jis]

When they talk about number of trainsets, my educated guess is they are counting a trainset as anything that has capacity equivalent to 8 85 footers like the current typical NEC Regional consists with a similar mix of Coach, Upper Class and Food Service. It is somewhat wishy washy, but in the ballpark I think. I have not seen a precise definition. The vendors have a lot of leeway in proposing solutions that meet the end to end run time and capacity requirements specified in the document shared with vendors, but not with the likes of me - a non-vendor curious person.

Given that it is a relatively hide bound bureaucracy we are dealing with, at the end of the day I think all that will be acceptable will be 8 Venture-like cars bracketed between top and tail power heads. I would be positively surprised if it turns out to be anything else.

 

[Mailliw]

I just don't see Amtrak going with EMUs; the time to do that would've the Acela replacement. This new equipment needs to run on and off electricfied routes and I just don't see Amtrak going with BMUs on such a large scale. I'll be shocked if Amtrak goes with something other than Siemens Venture coaches.

 

[Andrew]

I just don't see Amtrak going with EMUs; the time to do that would've the Acela replacement. This new equipment needs to run on and off electricfied routes and I just don't see Amtrak going with BMUs on such a large scale. I'll be shocked if Amtrak goes with something other than Siemens Venture coaches.

Are you then implying that Amtrak will go with diesel-catenary Charger Locomotives for dual-mode service?

 

[Mailliw]

Probably.

 

[jiml]

Are you then implying that Amtrak will go with diesel-catenary Charger Locomotives for dual-mode service?

Probably.

You guys are really looking forward to this. It's great to dream and I'm not saying it won't ever happen, but let's do a reality check. The only place in the current Amtrak system where dual-mode is a thing is the Empire Corridor and the locomotives that fill that need probably have the lowest mileage of any of the G.E.'s, so will likely be the last replaced. They seldom wander any further than Buffalo/Toronto or Montreal (when those routes are operating). Buying an expensive sub-set of locomotives to simply eliminate the swap at WAS is unlikely and buying anything with a view to the future is neither Amtrak's "style" nor is it practical when your budget is reassessed every year, making future planning difficult. They're not going to run a dual-mode on any NEC long-distance trains such as the Silvers, Crescent or Cardinal where a conventional diesel will do just as well. Why risk your valuable dual-mode being stranded far from its maintenance base? Maybe you can make a case for the Virginia extensions of NEC trains and the Pennsylvanian, but don't you think it would be better to wait until there are wires over the tracks in a good part of Virginia and maybe up the Hudson as far as Albany before adding an "orange" to the "apple cart"? I'm all for dreaming, but this isn't Europe.

 

[PVD]

At this point, the Empire Corridor ones may well be bought by NYS as options on the MNRR procurement.

 

[jis]

I agree that electric and diesel dual mode is unlikely to be used on LD trains traveling beyond Virginia. What would be used on Virginia trains may be partly determined by what Virginia wants to see happen.

Personally I think money would be better spent in fixing the process for loco change in Washington Union Station so such can be done in 15 mins, instead of creating yet another subfleet of engines.

Corridor trains with relatively frequent stops are more efficiently operated with distributed power sets, and that is the trend everywhere in the world. In many places this is achieved using a mix of trailer and power cars, with cab cars at each end, all cars carrying passengers. Quite often the cab cars may not be the power cars, but that is not a critical issue.

NJTransit has opted for this route to convert a substantial subset of its multi-level fleet into what in effect will be distributed power sets, by adding a bunch of Multilevel Power Cars to their fleet. Last time I looked they plan to have a power car in groups of three cars, thus a 12 car train will have 4 power cars. The contract is for a joint procurement between NJT and SEPTA.

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/commuterregional/for-njt-another-rolling-stock-innovation/
From this article:


There is nothing in this that is proprietary to Bombardier (Alstom). Siemens is perfectly capable of crafting such a configuration together using the Viaggio platform. It does not require trains to be fixed length. The lengths can be varied as one desires. The cab at each end is something that Amtrak has expressed a desire for, in order to eliminate the need to for turning trains in a loop or a Wye, allowing them to be "turned" in platform.

But given that Amtrak has a large stash of very capable electric engines, and a need for part of the fleet to run off electrified territory, they may go for the push pull configuration with cab car at one end instead (the RailJet configuration or configuration 2 in the Railway Age article referenced above). But again, it is not hard to mix and match as needed. So we'll see.

 

[nullptr]

The only place in the current Amtrak system where dual-mode is a thing is the Empire Corridor and the locomotives that fill that need probably have the lowest mileage of any of the G.E.'s, so will likely be the last replaced. They seldom wander any further than Buffalo/Toronto or Montreal (when those routes are operating).

Maybe to your point that the amfleet order won't include dual-mode locomotives, NYDOT has an option to buy empire corridor configured dual modes in the MTA order. It would be odd for them to get options in one order, only for another dual-mode order (maybe larger) to be placed for other corridors. But I don't know how much coordination there has been between amtrak and the states for all of this.

Edit: Ah oops, PVD beet me to it.

 

[jiml]

Maybe to your point that the amfleet order won't include dual-mode locomotives, NYDOT has an option to buy empire corridor configured dual modes in the MTA order. It would be odd for them to get options in one order, only for another dual-mode order (maybe larger) to be placed for other corridors. But I don't know how much coordination there has been between amtrak and the states for all of this.

Edit: Ah oops, PVD beet me to it.

Right, but unless something changes dramatically in the next few years won't those be third-rail/diesel as opposed to catenary? I was commenting on posts about dual-mode catenary models.

 

[PVD]

Over the last few years the 700's on the Empire Service have gotten fresh paint, and actually (to me) look pretty good. They've gotten the job done when called upon. When the platform and track work was going on in Albany, a single P-32 pulled the whole LSL up from NYP, and when trains went to GCT, I believe some got a "nose job" and a bunch had there 3rd rail shoes modified. And they soldier on. I'm sure someone else will let us know if they are ok on maintenance, I would guess a DM is a bit more troublesome than regular.

 

[jis]

Then again, a single FL-9 routinely used to pull the then longer LSL from NYG to ALB or CRH too.

 

[nullptr]

Right, but unless something changes dramatically in the next few years won't those be third-rail/diesel as opposed to catenary? I was commenting on posts about dual-mode catenary models.

Ah, that is true, and is pretty important context. It might potentially justify two different orders, but would still seem odd.

 

[jiml]

Over the last few years the 700's on the Empire Service have gotten fresh paint, and actually (to me) look pretty good. They've gotten the job done when called upon. When the platform and track work was going on in Albany, a single P-32 pulled the whole LSL up from NYP, and when trains went to GCT, I believe some got a "nose job" and a bunch had there 3rd rail shoes modified. And they soldier on. I'm sure someone else will let us know if they are ok on maintenance, I would guess a DM is a bit more troublesome than regular.

You rarely see one being towed by a freight engine.

 

[jis]

You rarely see one being towed by a freight engine.

No. Them would not fit through the tunnels into Penn Station. But there have been P32ACDMs substituted by straight P42s into Penn Station from time to time pinch hitting for a P32ACDM that did not make it..