RFP issued for Amfleet I replacement

[mainemanman]

whatever happened to rumor of Amtrak getting GE or EMD 6 axle freight **** , everyone one was convinced

Wasn't that metra?

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Metra is fact, but about a year ago 1/2 of all buffs were assured Amtrak was getting a bunch of new 6 axle freight units with HEP.

 

[mainemanman]

Huh. I thought they only used 6 axles (the Dash 8) as a substitute for the late Genesis delivery. Why would they need more?

 

[trainman74]

Something similar to CALIDOT?

Took me a minute to figure out what you were talking about. Not sure where you came up with "CALIDOT" -- the California Department of Transportation goes by "Caltrans."

 

[mainemanman]

It's called CALIDOT because IDOT also purchased the cars.

 

[PVD]

There is actually a decent Wikipedia entry under "CALIDOT" that includes a breakdown of the order, and how the sets will be assembled.

 

[jis]

whatever happened to rumor of Amtrak getting GE or EMD 6 axle freight **** , everyone one was convinced

ROTFL!

 

[Acela150]

It's called CALIDOT because IDOT also purchased the cars.

Irrelevant. The California Department of Transportation has always been referred to as Caltrans. I don’t see how calling Caltrans Calidot has anything to do with the State of Illinois.

I also wanted to point out something to those who are in favor of Push-Pull style equipment with Cab Cars.

I’ve already made my argument against trainsets and it’s a pretty good reason.

For those of you who have never had the experience of riding in the cab of a Metroliner Cab Car let me edumacate you on Cab Car operations.

When the current electric motor fleet was brought online their was a problem with the throttle communication between the Cab Car and motor. The motor would NOT take power in Notch 1. This was an on going problem that was later fixed. Now imagine after the train was pulled from Harrisburg and you’re now sold out going to NYP and you take power and instead of getting a nice gentle bump you get slammed into by the motor cause it wouldn’t take power in Notch 1. Let me tell you. It sucks! But yet again that problem was rectified.

The major problem with Cab Car operations is ride quality. Which is why I’m vehemently against a Cab Car style operation becoming the new norm. The ride is not as nice when you’re being pulled by a motor with an Engineer who has great train handling skills. With a Cab Car operation you’re more likely to be jolted around during periods of acceleration, deceleration, and especially braking. I have had the privilege of being able to ride one way in the cab of a Cab Car and the other way in a new motor. I will hands down take the motor over the Cab Car. As will every engineer out there. Cab Cars make Train handling conditions a whole different ball game. And for those engineers who rarely if ever touch a Cab Cab it would be like learning something new all over again at engine school. There are at least five crew bases that regularly touch a train with a Cab Car. Two of which do NOT use motors but diesel units. Harrisburg, Philadelphia, and New York Zone 2 consistently handle Keystone trains with Cab Cars. Especially Harrisburg as virtually every job out of there is a Keystone train. I think only one doesn’t deal with Keystone trains. That is the job that brings the Pennsylvanian to Philadelphia. But I can guarantee you that they take a Keystone train back to Harrisburg. Springfield, MA and New Haven, CT handle the shuttle trains between the two points. But the Shuttles don’t use motors. Only diesels.

Bottom line, Push Pull operations with a motor isn’t really a good idea IMO.

 

[mainemanman]

Irrelevant. The California Department of Transportation has always been referred to as Caltrans. I don’t see how calling Caltrans Calidot has anything to do with the State of Illinois.

I also wanted to point out something to those who are in favor of Push-Pull style equipment with Cab Cars.

I’ve already made my argument against trainsets and it’s a pretty good reason.

For those of you who have never had the experience of riding in the cab of a Metroliner Cab Car let me edumacate you on Cab Car operations.

When the current electric motor fleet was brought online their was a problem with the throttle communication between the Cab Car and motor. The motor would NOT take power in Notch 1. This was an on going problem that was later fixed. Now imagine after the train was pulled from Harrisburg and you’re now sold out going to NYP and you take power and instead of getting a nice gentle bump you get slammed into by the motor cause it wouldn’t take power in Notch 1. Let me tell you. It sucks! But yet again that problem was rectified.

The major problem with Cab Car operations is ride quality. Which is why I’m vehemently against a Cab Car style operation becoming the new norm. The ride is not as nice when you’re being pulled by a motor with an Engineer who has great train handling skills. With a Cab Car operation you’re more likely to be jolted around during periods of acceleration, deceleration, and especially braking. I have had the privilege of being able to ride one way in the cab of a Cab Car and the other way in a new motor. I will hands down take the motor over the Cab Car. As will every engineer out there. Cab Cars make Train handling conditions a whole different ball game. And for those engineers who rarely if ever touch a Cab Cab it would be like learning something new all over again at engine school. There are at least five crew bases that regularly touch a train with a Cab Car. Two of which do NOT use motors but diesel units. Harrisburg, Philadelphia, and New York Zone 2 consistently handle Keystone trains with Cab Cars. Especially Harrisburg as virtually every job out of there is a Keystone train. I think only one doesn’t deal with Keystone trains. That is the job that brings the Pennsylvanian to Philadelphia. But I can guarantee you that they take a Keystone train back to Harrisburg. Springfield, MA and New Haven, CT handle the shuttle trains between the two points. But the Shuttles don’t use motors. Only diesels.

Bottom line, Push Pull operations with a motor isn’t really a good idea IMO.

Well I see your point, but I said CALIDOT when referring to the cars, not CalTrans. I know what CalTrans is.

 

[jis]

I’ve already made my argument against trainsets and it’s a pretty good reason.

Bottom line, Push Pull operations with a motor isn’t really a good idea IMO.

And yet the entire world is moving towards those, so I guess you will just have to suck it up and bear it.

BTW, in terms of overall rail passenger ridership in the US, I suspect a vast majority ride on either push pulls or EMUs/DMUs in the US. single direction loco pulled is a minority operation already by a long shot. I am not aware of any commuter service in the North East or Chicagoland that is not push-pull with a cab car at one end and a loco at the other end, unless of course it is EMU.

My crystal ball says that in the next gen all operations of Amtrak Regional service on the NEC will transition over to push-pull or pull-pull with cabs at both ends, loco or cab car, just like is happening in California. Anything else simply does not make much sense.

 

[Gemuser]

Irrelevant. The California Department of Transportation has always been referred to as Caltrans. I don’t see how calling Caltrans Calidot has anything to do with the State of Illinois.

I also wanted to point out something to those who are in favor of Push-Pull style equipment with Cab Cars.

I’ve already made my argument against trainsets and it’s a pretty good reason.

For those of you who have never had the experience of riding in the cab of a Metroliner Cab Car let me edumacate you on Cab Car operations.

When the current electric motor fleet was brought online their was a problem with the throttle communication between the Cab Car and motor. The motor would NOT take power in Notch 1. This was an on going problem that was later fixed. Now imagine after the train was pulled from Harrisburg and you’re now sold out going to NYP and you take power and instead of getting a nice gentle bump you get slammed into by the motor cause it wouldn’t take power in Notch 1. Let me tell you. It sucks! But yet again that problem was rectified.

The major problem with Cab Car operations is ride quality. Which is why I’m vehemently against a Cab Car style operation becoming the new norm. The ride is not as nice when you’re being pulled by a motor with an Engineer who has great train handling skills. With a Cab Car operation you’re more likely to be jolted around during periods of acceleration, deceleration, and especially braking. I have had the privilege of being able to ride one way in the cab of a Cab Car and the other way in a new motor. I will hands down take the motor over the Cab Car. As will every engineer out there. Cab Cars make Train handling conditions a whole different ball game. And for those engineers who rarely if ever touch a Cab Cab it would be like learning something new all over again at engine school. There are at least five crew bases that regularly touch a train with a Cab Car. Two of which do NOT use motors but diesel units. Harrisburg, Philadelphia, and New York Zone 2 consistently handle Keystone trains with Cab Cars. Especially Harrisburg as virtually every job out of there is a Keystone train. I think only one doesn’t deal with Keystone trains. That is the job that brings the Pennsylvanian to Philadelphia. But I can guarantee you that they take a Keystone train back to Harrisburg. Springfield, MA and New Haven, CT handle the shuttle trains between the two points. But the Shuttles don’t use motors. Only diesels.

Bottom line, Push Pull operations with a motor isn’t really a good idea IMO.

While you MAY be correct about Metroliner cab cars it is pretty irrelevent to compare something from the 1980? with current practice.
My exprience is from 2016/17 mainly with Swiss Railways [federal & private]. I have ridden in cab cars of various types and all of them have been fine and the same as other cars,The various Swiss railways use them with electric locos [at the outer end of 12 car trains, sometimes at both ends with the loco in the middle], EMUs [2, 3, 4, 6, 9 & 12 car sets, single & double deck] and even with 3 car EMUs pulling/pushing 7 car rakes of ordinary carriages. Never in over 10 weeks riding [over the two trips] never a problem.

Now I must admit that compared to rail tracks in the USA Swiss tracks are built & maintained to a much higher standard, so is rolling stock and operational response to problems would leave you breathless! But to simply dismiss a current world "best practise" only because of limited exprience with old equipment seems to be asking for trouble and depriving Amtrak of the advantages.

 

[jis]

Metroliner cab cars are early 1970s vintage, converted to their present form sometime between 1987 and 1989 according to Goldberg and Warner's tome on Metroliners.

 

[PVD]

There's some LIRR runs that are loco at both ends.

 

[NSC1109]

It's called CALIDOT because IDOT also purchased the cars.

Except IDOT doesn’t have cab cars.

 

[jis]

There's some LIRR runs that are loco at both ends.

Yup. The double length DE/DM powered trains. Some call such things pull-pull.

Amtrak has done such on some Empire trains when they were unable to send them to Sunnyside to get turned during track construction in Penn Station too.

 

[mainemanman]

Except IDOT doesn’t have cab cars.

The new cars are called CALIDOTs. They have cab cars. These ones.

They are called CALIDOT because both the Illinois DOT and CalTrans purchased them.

 

[PVD]

The article I pointed out lays out the differences between the California and Midwest sets.

 

[railiner]

Metroliner cab cars are early 1970s vintage, converted to their present form sometime between 1987 and 1989 according to Goldberg and Warner's tome on Metroliners.

They go back a bit further...the first Metroliner's were ordered in 1966, and delivered to the PRR by Budd in the fall of '67. After a period of trial's and modification's, they went into regular service on the Penn Central in 1969.

 

[mainemanman]

The article I pointed out lays out the differences between the California and Midwest sets.

Ah, thanks. So the IDOT ones are only coaches.

 

[NSC1109]

Ah, thanks. So the IDOT ones are only coaches.

Mmhm.

It’s fine with me that way. Never liked the look of those cab cars...just too weird.

 

[PVD]

I dont have the article in front of me, I'm on my phone, but I believe IDOT has some cars that are split bc/coach, and some cars that include cafe as well as full coach.

 

[mainemanman]

Mmhm.

It’s fine with me that way. Never liked the look of those cab cars...just too weird.

I mean, it suits the chargers.

I dont have the article in front of me, I'm on my phone, but I believe IDOT has some cars that are split bc/coach, and some cars that include cafe as well as full coach.

You are correct. I wonder if the lounge is getting cut if only half of the car is a cafe.

 

[NSC1109]

[QUOTE="mainemanman]
You are correct. I wonder if the lounge is getting cut if only half of the car is a cafe.[/QUOTE]

Not exactly...the way the IDOT cars are set up, it’s one full car of coach and one full car of BC. They’re a semi-permanently coupled pair. I believe it’s the same with the cafe: married with a coach. That’s a whole ‘nother ball of wax if you want to talk about the logistical challenges that presents, but you should be getting a full cafe and a full BC car instead of the split BC/cafe the Michigan Services are usually running with.

 

[PVD]

At home, re read the articles about the procurement, and it appears that it is indeed 17 married couples with one vestibule in each car for the coach/bc and the same for the coach/cafe sets. Not split cars, but split pairs of full cars The 20 coaches have 2 vestibules each.

 

[Acela150]

And yet the entire world is moving towards those, so I guess you will just have to suck it up and bear it.

BTW, in terms of overall rail passenger ridership in the US, I suspect a vast majority ride on either push pulls or EMUs/DMUs in the US. single direction loco pulled is a minority operation already by a long shot. I am not aware of any commuter service in the North East or Chicagoland that is not push-pull with a cab car at one end and a loco at the other end, unless of course it is EMU.

My crystal ball says that in the next gen all operations of Amtrak Regional service on the NEC will transition over to push-pull or pull-pull with cabs at both ends, loco or cab car, just like is happening in California. Anything else simply does not make much sense.

Sadly I know you're right. My main issue is that I don't want to see Amtrak order "trainsets". At least of the semi-permanent coupled variety. It's not easy to drill out a car or two if it has to be removed like the Amfleets or Superliners. And having to shop a car is part of the railroad industry. Things are going to be in need of fixing, and really the only way to fix one car on a trainset is to take the whole thing out. One thing that Amtrak did a few years ago was to move the Business Class and Quiet Cars to the rear of the train. Part of which was to make it easier to take a coach car from the head of the train and use it elsewhere if the need arises. With a trainset you can't do that.