Routes With Most Padding

[Ben]

Which Amtrak routes have the most padding in their schedules?

 

[Steve4031]

Coast starlight has a lot. 14 arrived 1hour early into Klamath falls when I ride it.

 

[benjibear]

Coast starlight has a lot. 14 arrived 1hour early into Klamath falls when I ride it.

How does a train get into a station in the middle of the route an hour early? That means it has to sit there an hour until it can leave? Is this a crew change, water, supply stop?

 

[Bob Dylan]

If we eliminate the "Temporarily Suspended" Sunset "East" (due to UP Dispatching), my cantidates would be Three of the Western LD Trains (The Sunset Ltd. "West",SWC,CZ)and the Texas Eagle.They often make up time towards the start and end of their Routes, as much as a couple of Hours, and have fairly long dwell times in some of the Stations.(El Paso,Ft. Worth, St. Louis,Denver, Albuquerque etc.)

 

[amtkstn]

The SWC makes up time most trip in Arizona with 90 MPH running arriving into LA early many days.

 

[City of Miami]

I suspect Amtrak puts in the padding in an attempt to factor in the barely predictable behavior of the host railroads and still give folks an accurate idea of their arrival time at their destination. The dwell times at certain stations add some elasticity as the dwell time can often be shortened considerably to put the train back on schedule if it is late. If it is on time or early the train waits.....and is still on time.

Train 21 schedules 3 and a half hours to get from Austin to the terminus at San Antonio. This is about 90 miles and on a good run [like I had last weekend] takes about 2 hours and fifteen minutes - you can drive it in maybe an hour and a half. So 21 often arrives SAS early which is a happy outcome and I'm sure NO ONE complains! But if it's running late it has a better chance of arriving in San Antonio near the scheduled time of 9:55pm.

 

[George Harris]

A reasonably good way to determine the amount of padding is to look at the elapsed time between the same two points in the other direction.

 

[guest]

A reasonably good way to determine the amount of padding is to look at the elapsed time between the same two points in the other direction.

Wow, comparing the two directions really does give a great idea of the padding!!

Question: did schedules of the famous trains like the Super Chief, City of Los Angeles, Golden State, Broadway Limited, etc. also have lots of padding built into them? Or was it unnecessary as the private railroads would have their freights move out of the way for the passenger consists?

 

[George Harris]

A reasonably good way to determine the amount of padding is to look at the elapsed time between the same two points in the other direction.

Wow, comparing the two directions really does give a great idea of the padding!!

Question: did schedules of the famous trains like the Super Chief, City of Los Angeles, Golden State, Broadway Limited, etc. also have lots of padding built into them? Or was it unnecessary as the private railroads would have their freights move out of the way for the passenger consists?

Usually their was some, but commonly a lot less. Also, the necessary time into a major station might be longer than the time out because of the many stations, New Orleans UPT, St. Louis Union Station, Memphis, both Union and Central, except the ICRR trains, Knoxville L&N stations, to name a few, where trains had to go around a wye and back in, but could pull straight out.

Padding was usually relatively less, commonly around 15 minutes, but maybe as much as 30 minutes on secondary trains. For the City of New Orleans and Pananma Limited into Memphis, it was probably under 5 minutes, but if these trains, and the City of Miami, were late into their terminals the statement of how much and why would promptly be on the company president's desk.

 

[manchacrr]

The City of New Orleans has a good amount of padding as well:

#58:

1. Hazlehurst to Jackson is 33 miles. The train is scheduled to depart HAZ at 4:17pm and arrive in JAN at 5:44pm. If on time, the

train often arrives in Jackson by 5:00pm.

2. Greenwood to Memphis is 126 miles. The train is scheduled to depart GWD at 7:37pm and arrive in MEM at 10:00pm. If on time, the

train will be in Memphis by 9:45pm.

3. Memphis is a 40 minute scheduled stop. The train scheduled to arrive in MEM at 10:00pm and depart at 10:40pm.

4. Homewood to Chicago is 24 miles. The train is scheduled to depart HMW at 7:44am and arrive in CHI at 9:00am. If on time, even with

the backup move off the Air Line, the train will arrive by 8:30am.

#59:

1. Newbern-Dyersburg to Memphis is 86 miles. The train is scheduled to depart NBN at 3:56am and arrive in MEM at 6:27am. If on time,

the train will be in Memphis by 6:00am.

2. Memphis is a 23 minute scheduled stop. The train is scheduled to arrive in MEM at 6:27am and depart at 6:50pm.

3. Yazoo City to Jackson is 45 miles. The train is scheduled to depart YAZ at 9:51am and arrive in JAN at 11:20am. If on time, the

train will be in Jackson by 10:55am.

4. Hammond to New Orleans is 53 miles. The train is scheduled to depart HMD at 1:28pm and arrive in NOL at 3:32pm. If on time, the

train will be in New Orleans by 2:45pm.

Both Directions:

1. Of the 19 stations listed on the schedule only 9 are mandatory stops. The other 10 are flag stops.

2. The only required stops on the entire route are: Chicago, Homewood, Champaign-Urbana, Carbondale, Memphis, Greenwood, Jackson,

Hammond, and New Orleans.

 

[zephyr17]

Coast starlight has a lot. 14 arrived 1hour early into Klamath falls when I ride it.

How does a train get into a station in the middle of the route an hour early? That means it has to sit there an hour until it can leave? Is this a crew change, water, supply stop?

Yes, it is a crew change, and water stop. They take trash out, but do not take on supplies at KFalls.

Most long distance routes have pad points in the middle of their schedules most more than one, not just at terminals. For the Starlight, there is pad at Portland, KFalls, Sacramento, Emeryville, San Jose, and I think San Luis Obispo. For the SWC, there is pad at Albuquerque, Kansas City and I think La Junta. There may be more on it. Builder has pad at Spokane, maybe Whitefish, Havre, and Minneapolis/St Paul maybe more. Can't speak for CZ, except for Denver and SLC.

I think the Sunset on the current schedule (not the May 7 one) probably has the most pad. When I rode it a couple of years ago, we were basically on time, and had really long dwells holding for time, well over an hour, at some points.

 

[City of Miami]

On the other hand, I cannot understand why the Texas Eagle will sit in the Austin station for 20+ minutes, on the single track mainline, while the conductor collects tickets from the long line of people boarding. Why can't they open all the doors, let everyone on, and then the conductor walks the train collecting tickets? The train is nearly always late at this point so it's not a matter of dwell time or a crew change.

 

[Anderson]

On the private railroads being quite...strong-willed about their top-line trains being on-time, I am reminded of the story of a Penn Central executive being on a stopped Metroliner in Baltimore due to an overturned coal car in the tunnel there. Story is that he swore the engineer up one side and down the other over a live PA system and when they couldn't get the train moving, he fired someone over it even though they had no control over it. So I can imagine that with the Broadway Limited, 20th Century Limited, etc., if that train was late then it was so help you.

I think Bill noted that not all "first class" trains were alike, however, and that (for example, with Southern) the Crescent was a do-not-delay train in a way that the Peach Queen wasn't. And then you have the other end of the spectrum, with the "mail express" trains such as the FEC's "Daylight Express", which in the 50s took about 12 hours to travel from JAX-MIA because it stopped everywhere (I think I counted either 50 or 70 stops on the route). There was at least one RF&P train in this vein that outdid the VRE's commuter trains for stops, I think...the list goes on. But as to padding...well, I'm betting that the Daylight Express schedule was so padded that it wasn't funny.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

LSL into BOS has a huge amount of padding.

 

[gust of fresh air]

It seems like some of the padding is not because of freight traffic but to give the train crew time to throw off trash and for smokers to detrain and have a quick puff. Klamath Falls on the California Zephyr, for example.

So why not just put longer dwell times into the schedule for these semi-mandatory dwells to take care of train operations?

Also, does anyone know how Amtrak determines average freight interference times for each of its routes? By looking at a historical trend of delays? By knowing which railroads delay more than others e.g. UP vs BNSF?

 

[ColdRain&Snow]

Coast starlight has a lot. 14 arrived 1hour early into Klamath falls when I ride it.

How does a train get into a station in the middle of the route an hour early? That means it has to sit there an hour until it can leave? Is this a crew change, water, supply stop?

Specific to #14, that hour in KFS is frequently eroded by delays accrued up to that point. With just a 65 minute window to connect with #28 on the second afternoon, that padding is essential to the success of the 14/28 connection. Even so, catch-the-EB bustitutions continue as they did last Sunday when Amtrak set up a Eugene/Pasco bridge per delays attributed to picking up the stranded AMTK 94 from the Sims siding.  

 

[TCRT]

LSL into BOS has a huge amount of padding.

At first glance I didn't agree with this, since the padding on 448/449 is not nearly as much as some other long-distance trains, as it's only an hour (this can be found by examining the FRA-BBY timings). However, for a 5:40 scheduled run from Boston to Albany, one hour is a huge amount of padding in a relative sense, since it means that 18% of the published trip time is padding. Can any other route beat that percentage?

 

[George Harris]

For the other end of the scale, take the San Joaquins on the BNSF down the Central Valley. If you hear the back and forth between the engineer and the dispatcher there are times you would you think it was between the ATSF and the Super Chief. There appears to be about 10 minutes of "pad" at Fresno, but I put pad in quotations because that is about what you have between best case arrival and scheduled departure, and it normally takes at least 5 minutes to do the station work.

 

[rtabern]

There is definite pad in La Junta, CO on the eastbound SWC. It's not supposed to be that long of a stop, but last time my friend from Boston and I took it... we ended up having time to walk 2 blocks to a bar for a couple of drinks. We were told not to leave train-side, but we knew it would be sitting there for 40 minutes.

Coast starlight has a lot. 14 arrived 1hour early into Klamath falls when I ride it.

How does a train get into a station in the middle of the route an hour early? That means it has to sit there an hour until it can leave? Is this a crew change, water, supply stop?

Yes, it is a crew change, and water stop. They take trash out, but do not take on supplies at KFalls.

Most long distance routes have pad points in the middle of their schedules most more than one, not just at terminals. For the Starlight, there is pad at Portland, KFalls, Sacramento, Emeryville, San Jose, and I think San Luis Obispo. For the SWC, there is pad at Albuquerque, Kansas City and I think La Junta. There may be more on it. Builder has pad at Spokane, maybe Whitefish, Havre, and Minneapolis/St Paul maybe more. Can't speak for CZ, except for Denver and SLC.

I think the Sunset on the current schedule (not the May 7 one) probably has the most pad. When I rode it a couple of years ago, we were basically on time, and had really long dwells holding for time, well over an hour, at some points.

 

[guest]

For the other end of the scale, take the San Joaquins on the BNSF down the Central Valley. If you hear the back and forth between the engineer and the dispatcher there are times you would you think it was between the ATSF and the Super Chief. There appears to be about 10 minutes of "pad" at Fresno, but I put pad in quotations because that is about what you have between best case arrival and scheduled departure, and it normally takes at least 5 minutes to do the station work.

Ditto for the Pacific Surfliners, which schedules have literally no padding. On the last Surfliner between LA and San Diego, the train may arrive 7 minutes ahead of schedule, but that's because the engineer has essentially maintained maximum speed wherever possible. And as for the San Joaquins, as many times as I have been on them, the only time they ever hold or slow down is for a southbound SJ to pass in a single-track zone. I can't remember a single siding ever for a freight, although I'm sure it must happen from time to time.

To play Devil's Advocate, however, maybe adherence to schedules is not really so important these days for LD trains, since almost no passenger is in a hurry to get anywhere, unless it's for a connection, in which case savvy Amtrak riders know that they need to pad their own time sufficiently in addition to the Amtrak padding!!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

The CZ gets a lot of "Operational" delays. 22% for March. Is that correctable by padding?

 

[LarryG]

LSL into BOS has a huge amount of padding.

At first glance I didn't agree with this, since the padding on 448/449 is not nearly as much as some other long-distance trains, as it's only an hour (this can be found by examining the FRA-BBY timings). However, for a 5:40 scheduled run from Boston to Albany, one hour is a huge amount of padding in a relative sense, since it means that 18% of the published trip time is padding. Can any other route beat that percentage?

Does anyone know why there's so much padding on the WB LSL out of Boston? The Boston branch is already scheduled to arrive in ALB 1 hour before the New York branch, plus there's another 1 hour of padding between PIT and ALB. So it can potentially get to ALB 2 hours before the New York branch.

 

[zephyr17]

...savvy Amtrak riders know that they need to pad their own time sufficiently in addition to the Amtrak padding!!

I know I build an overnight "pad" at Chicago if connecting to another LD eastbound. I seem more trusting going westbound, though.

 

[AlanB]

LSL into BOS has a huge amount of padding.

At first glance I didn't agree with this, since the padding on 448/449 is not nearly as much as some other long-distance trains, as it's only an hour (this can be found by examining the FRA-BBY timings). However, for a 5:40 scheduled run from Boston to Albany, one hour is a huge amount of padding in a relative sense, since it means that 18% of the published trip time is padding. Can any other route beat that percentage?

Does anyone know why there's so much padding on the WB LSL out of Boston? The Boston branch is already scheduled to arrive in ALB 1 hour before the New York branch, plus there's another 1 hour of padding between PIT and ALB. So it can potentially get to ALB 2 hours before the New York branch.

Simply in large part because that train in the past had more delays than the NY section did; so rather than delay the section with the greater number of passenger thanks to a late arriving Boston section, Amtrak tossed in extra padding on the Boston section.

Additionally, the engines from the Boston section are the ones used to pull the combined train to Chicago. So they also want time to refuel them, especially if again the Boston section is running late, and then get that section in a position to be ready to link up to the NY section, as well as to board Albany passengers for the Boston section.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Coast starlight has a lot. 14 arrived 1hour early into Klamath falls when I ride it.

How does a train get into a station in the middle of the route an hour early? That means it has to sit there an hour until it can leave? Is this a crew change, water, supply stop?

Yes, it is a crew change, and water stop. They take trash out, but do not take on supplies at KFalls.

Most long distance routes have pad points in the middle of their schedules most more than one, not just at terminals. For the Starlight, there is pad at Portland, KFalls, Sacramento, Emeryville, San Jose, and I think San Luis Obispo. For the SWC, there is pad at Albuquerque, Kansas City and I think La Junta. There may be more on it. Builder has pad at Spokane, maybe Whitefish, Havre, and Minneapolis/St Paul maybe more. Can't speak for CZ, except for Denver and SLC.

I think the Sunset on the current schedule (not the May 7 one) probably has the most pad. When I rode it a couple of years ago, we were basically on time, and had really long dwells holding for time, well over an hour, at some points.

Minot is a major stop on the EB route. Not sure if a crew change/water stop, but I am fairly certain it is at least 1 of the two. The CZ used to have a refueling/crew change (or something like that) at Sparks, but I think they just ended up shifting it to the Reno station, but not sure. I think you're right about SLO being a pad point as well. Grand Junction has tons of pad there as well. Back in April 2011, we pulled in around 9:40 going eastbound. I assume Omaha is a point as well, and I have heard the mentions on here of their sleeper attendants sometimes getting the local newspaper there as well, if they're that kind of attendant (in the good way).

I would argue that the PacSurf has some lag time. Looking at the schedules, you will find the quickest northbound time at 33 minutes, and the slowest time southbound at 50 minutes Even when factoring in meeting opposing trains, this still works out to not take 50 minutes. For a corridor train, I look at every single train in both directions (assuming it's relatively flat) and find the quickest time made on that route whatsoever. On the PacSurf, the quickest run time for a train that stops at LAX, FUL, Anaheim, SantaAna, Irvine, SJC, Oceanside, Solana Beach, and San Diego without any padding at all would be:

LAX-Fullerton: 29 minutes

Fullerton-Anaheim 8 minutes

Anaheim-Santa Ana 8 minutes

Santa Ana-Irvine 10 minutes

Irvine-San Juan Cap 13 minutes

SJC-Oceanside 29 minutes

Oceanside-Solana 14 minutes

Solana-San Diego 33 minutes

Grand Total 144 minutes/2 hours 24 minutes.

The quickest run made in total is 2 hours 40 minutes (not counting the dumb express train). Most runs are 2h 45m or 2h 50m. The worst offender is the 2:40 northbound from SAN, with a 3h run time. When the link was posted earlier to the very first timetable, even though I had seen it before multiple times, I decided to look through it anyways. I saw the Coast Starlight, which left Seattle at 12:15p and arrived in LA at 7:15 p the next day. Leaving 2:30 later and arriving 1:45 earlier, that is a big difference. Sure it took the West Valley Sub, but the actual run time would not take off more than an hour. But a huge amount of south-of-San Luis Obispo (40 minutes shorter SLO-SB just on that segment than today and a big amount south of SBA too) and mid-point city stopovers have been added. Wouldn't it be great for a train to leave Vancouver at a 7:30a time and arrive in LA by 9:00p (assuming the current through-SAC route)? Me gusta.