Ruined Texas Eagle trip

[Dmitri]

Hello,

Booked a trip to go from San Jose (sjc) to Dallas, TX back in early December, to travel on 2/15/2019 .. Originally chose Coast Starlight #11 to LA Union station in coach and a roomette on 422 from LA to Dallas. Than there was an announcement that due to track work the Sunset Limited (#2/422) would leave LA 2.5 hours earlier than scheduled and therefore i couldn't make the connection .. Offered some crazy combination of bus / train / another bus to LA and declined, getting a refund for that portion instead and purchasing a Southwest ticket to fly to LA on the morning of 2/15. Fast forward, to the evening of 2/14 where i get an automated call that changes have been made.. Now there's no Sunset Limited from LAUS on 2/15 and a 10 hour bus instead from LA to Tucson where the train will originate.. With a $101 refund out of $507 fare since i won't have the roomette. How nice of them. So i ask to cancel the whole thing, which will be done .. My question is, is there a way to get compensated for 2 airline tickets that i will now lose ? One from San Jose to LA that i only bought after Amtrak changed the schedule the 1st time and the 2nd - coming back home from TX that i won't use now. I bought the ticket from my local San Jose station, so CA law applies and i could risk a $55 fee and take it to small claims .. But hopefully it  can be avoided ? Any advice ? 

 

[cpotisch]

I highly doubt you'll be able to get comped for those two separately booked plane tickets. Amtrak had to cancel the train due to Union Pacific track work (which they have virtually no control over), and they're giving you a full refund, so it just isn't their obligation to comp you for plane tickets.

 

[jebr]

Amtrak won't reimburse you for airline tickets that you aren't using because you cancelled the trip. While I'm not sure if there's any situation where Amtrak would be obligated to pay for another carrier's ticket, there certainly isn't one here as they did offer alternate transportation. That particular transportation option may not suit you, but they are meeting their obligation to transport you should you decide to take Amtrak. Small claims almost certainly won't offer any compensation, since Amtrak did offer transportation and you elected to cancel the trip instead. As long as Amtrak is refunding you the cost of the Amtrak tickets, there really isn't any additional remedy easily available (or easily argued from a legal perspective.)

Your best bet would be to look to either cancel or re-book your airline tickets, if there aren't high fees for doing so, or check into any applicable travel insurance that may cover that cost. Some credit cards do offer travel insurance, though this particular reason may not qualify under their terms. It doesn't hurt to ask, though.

 

[Dmitri]

Thanks for the replies .. Just seems weird that they can get away with it. Lets face, few people if any pay $500 or more to take 2 days just to get from LA to Texas -  unless it is short distance coach ride we usually pay for the experience when booking a sleeper on a train. When the notice went out that trains 2 / 422 would operate on different schedule for 2.5 months it was 1 thing and for that reason plane ticket was purchased. Now forcing people onto a 10 hours overnight bus ride instead of a sleeper,  they are completely changing the product they originally sold.. Bait and switch anyone ? Its one thing to do it to people already on the train that is hopelessly broken and another to switch like that 24 hours in advance. The reservation agent suggested i call Customer Relations tomorrow, but based on your comments i guess they will just tell me to pound sand.

   In which case i really feel like gambling a $55 fee to have them send someone in front of a judge and argue how it was ok to "just refund" me when i do not want to take the now completely changed service.  I can only think that perhaps if enough people decided "not to take the bus" in situations like this and call Amtrak on this, they would perhaps do things differently .. one can hope.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The reservation agent suggested i call Customer Relations tomorrow, but based on your comments i guess they will just tell me to pound sand.

I would still call them and explain your situation and how it negatively impacted what should have been an enjoyable experience.  Don't let anyone pressure you into accepting or ignoring something you find ethically objectionable.  If Amtrak is unable or unwilling to resolve your concerns to your satisfaction then it's your right to take the case to small claims court.  I would probably keep the damages limited to your actual losses and out of pocket expenses.  It's possible that Amtrak may simply ignore your complaint and end up forfeiting through a summary judgement.  Even if they do send someone and the judgement is found in their favor you will have still made a point much stronger and louder than simply giving up and going home.

 

[Dmitri]

Thanks, that's what i was thinking .. In my case the loses are pretty minor - $150 for both airline tickets.. But it does feel wrong to lose it through no fault of mine and when i tried to go along with Amtrak's changes.. If they do refuse to compensate me though, does anyone have an idea where would i mail the demand letter and than legal papers ? I'm sure its not the station where i bought the ticket.

 

[SarahZ]

They may compensate you with a voucher if you call Customer Relations and explain what happened.

When I was scheduled to take the Texas Eagle from Dallas to Chicago in 2013, the train was canceled due to an ice storm. Since it was a business trip, the cancelation notice and phone call went to my work email and work phone, two things I didn't have access to. I didn't find out until I got to the train station. I spent HOURS on the phone with Amtrak and my Corporate Travel department. Amtrak offered to book me on "the first train out", which may have been 2-3 days later. I was able to get a flight the next day.

When I got home, I called Amtrak and explained what happened. I asked if there was any consideration they might make for my food costs, hoping they might give me a $50 voucher. They ended up giving me $150 to cover the hotel room and food. I honestly wasn't expecting that much, especially since they had offered to book me in a roomette (which is what I paid for) once the host railroads opened up again.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I would think the only thing Customer Relations might do is offer a voucher for future service in the amount you lost.  It probably isn't what you want.  I'm not lawyer nor do I play one on TV so I'm genuinely curious. Since it seems you purchased a tickets (making you a ticketed passenger), would this make it to small claims court or would the whole "binding arbitration" clause click in?

The highlighted portions are what I'm wondering if they would apply:

Arbitration Agreement



Mutual Agreement to Arbitrate (“Arbitration Agreement”). This Arbitration Agreement is intended to be as broad as legally permissible, and, except as it otherwise provides, applies to all claims, disputes, or controversies, past, present, or future, that otherwise would be resolved in a court of law or before a forum other than arbitration. mtrak and Customer (on behalf of yourself and any individuals for whom you purchase tickets, including, without limitation, family members, minor passengers, colleagues and companions (collectively “You” or “Your”), AGREE that this Arbitration Agreement applies, without limitation, to claims Amtrak may have against You and claims You may have against Amtrak and any affiliates or related entities, or against any party to which Amtrak owes indemnity (which party may also enforce this Agreement), including without limitation any host railroad, based upon or related to: these Terms and Conditions, breach of contract, tort claims, common law claims, Your relationship with Amtrak, tickets, services and accommodations provided by Amtrak, carriage on Amtrak trains and equipment, any personal injuries (including, but not limited to, claims for negligence, gross negligence, physical impairment, disfigurement, pain and suffering, mental anguish, wrongful death, survival actions, loss of consortium and/or services, medical and hospital expenses, expenses of transportation for medical treatment, expenses of drugs and medical appliances, emotional distress, exemplary or punitive damages arising out of or related to any personal injury), and any claims for discrimination and failure to accommodate, shall be decided by a single arbitrator through binding arbitration and not by a judge or jury. Except with respect to the Class Action Waiver below, the arbitrator, and not any federal, state, or local court or agency, shall have exclusive authority to resolve any dispute relating to the validity, applicability, enforceability, unconscionability or waiver of this Arbitration Agreement, including, but not limited to any claim that all or any part of this Arbitration Agreement is void or voidable. This Arbitration Agreement is governed by the Federal Arbitration Act (“FAA”) and evidences a transaction involving commerce. The arbitration will be conducted before a single arbitrator under the Consumer Arbitration Rules of the American Arbitration Association ("AAA"), which are available at the AAA website (www.adr.org). A court of competent jurisdiction shall have the authority to enter judgment upon the arbitrator's decision/award. The parties agree to bring any claim or dispute in arbitration on an individual basis only, and not as a class or representative action, and there will be no right or authority for any claim or dispute to be brought, heard or arbitrated as a class or representative action ("Class Action Waiver"). Regardless of anything else in this Arbitration Agreement and/or the applicable AAA Rules, any dispute relating to the interpretation, applicability, enforceability or waiver of the Class Action Waiver may only be determined by a court and not an arbitrator. This Arbitration Agreement does not apply to any claim or dispute that an applicable federal statute states cannot be arbitrated.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Despite Amtrak's decision to unilaterally modify our supposedly inalienable rights I'd still take them to arbitration if Customer Relations doesn't provide adequate compensation.  Make them acknowledge and respond to your complaint in a formal manner, even if the resolution process has become irrevocably tilted in their favor.  It may not seem like much right now but some day even this meager relief will be stripped away from us.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Southwest Tickets can be cancelled up to the last minute with full credit returned to you. 

If you buy plane tickets to Vegas specifically to see Elton Jon, and then Elton Jon cancels because of a medical reason, the promoters of the concert refund you the ticket but are not liable for plane tickets, hotel reservations etc. that you made in order to go see the concert. 

I am sorry the trip turned out this way... the Starlight and Sunset are both nice trips. 

 

[OBS]

Another possibility,  do you have any type of trip insurance, as a benefit, with the credit card you used to purchase airline tickets?

 

[cpotisch]

Thanks for the replies .. Just seems weird that they can get away with it. Lets face, few people if any pay $500 or more to take 2 days just to get from LA to Texas -  unless it is short distance coach ride we usually pay for the experience when booking a sleeper on a train. 

A LOT OF PEOPLE pay $500 for that. Between LAX and SAS, the train has three coaches, two sleepers, and a Trans-Dorm, and it's very common for them all to sell out. And they announced the reduced weekly frequency at the same time that they announced the modified timing. It's not like Amtrak left you in the dark here; the information was there. It sucks, but since they've offered you alternate transportation, and have now refunded your train ticket when you turned that down, they are not obligated in the slightest to cover your flights. And again, remember that they didn't choose to cancel those trains. It's due to track work on the Union Pacific trackage.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

A LOT OF PEOPLE pay $500 for that. Between LAX and SAS, the train has three coaches, two sleepers, and a Trans-Dorm, and it's very common for them all to sell out. And they announced the reduced weekly frequency at the same time that they announced the modified timing. It's not like Amtrak left you in the dark here; the information was there. It sucks, but since they've offered you alternate transportation, and have now refunded your train ticket when you turned that down, they are not obligated in the slightest to cover your flights. And again, remember that they didn't choose to cancel those trains. It's due to track work on the Union Pacific trackage. 

I don't think you realize how incredibly insulting it is for an unemancipated teenager to forcefully advise adults what a given service or disruption should be worth to them.  So far as I am aware you have never once held a real job, or entered into a legally enforceable contract, or been a plaintiff in a court proceeding.  Therefore your input in topics like this should be measured and deferential.

 

[Dmitri]

A LOT OF PEOPLE pay $500 for that. Between LAX and SAS, the train has three coaches, two sleepers, and a Trans-Dorm, and it's very common for them all to sell out. And they announced the reduced weekly frequency at the same time that they announced the modified timing. It's not like Amtrak left you in the dark here; the information was there. It sucks, but since they've offered you alternate transportation, and have now refunded your train ticket when you turned that down, they are not obligated in the slightest to cover your flights. And again, remember that they didn't choose to cancel those trains. It's due to track work on the Union Pacific trackage.

Yes that is what i said - few people pay that kind of money just to go fro A to B, we pay for the experience..And i believe you are confusing things, the only information there was about the canceled sunday trains and changed timing which was announced in January and took away the Starlight connection & forced me to buy the flight to LA. I have no idea why they decided not to have the # 2 / 422 start in LAX today 2/15 but in Tucson and force people to spend one of the 2 nights of the trip on a bus. But it is NOT in their announcement and the UP track work is in TX anyway.  So after after that 2nd change i really believed the service is really nothing like what was originally purchased and had to cancel.. 

So you buy a certain advertised service and have to get to and from points where it begins and ends.. The provider keeps changing the service multiple times until its nothing like what you purchased so you cancel but left holding the bag on the arrangements ??

  Oh but Congress doesnt fund them enough, Union Pacific is being mean and wont let their 1 train in 3 days through, dog ate the homework...   Very sad really.

 

[cpotisch]

I don't think you realize how incredibly insulting it is for an unemancipated teenager to forcefully advise adults what a given service or disruption should be worth to them.  So far as I am aware you have never once held a real job, or entered into a legally enforceable contract, or been a plaintiff in a court proceeding.  Therefore your input in topics like this should be measured and deferential.

Where did I "forcefully advice" anyone on what this "disruption should be worth to them". All I said was that it's not Amtrak's obligation to cover flight costs when they are already giving a refund for the train ticket. I am speaking from personal experience that in the countless times we have had to deal with a carrier cancelling a train or flight, they have attempted to offer alternative transportation or a refund, but generally do not pay for other costs, ESPECIALLY when that cancellation is not their fault (such as a storm or track work by a separate organization). Sure it would be nice to have their plane ticket covered, and there's no harm in trying, but my point stands that it is not their obligation to deal with those costs.

The fact that I am a minor who has never held a salaried job or gone to court has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it is Amtrak's responsibility to cover a ticket with the airlines. None at all.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The fact that I am a minor who has never held a salaried job or gone to court has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it is Amtrak's responsibility to cover a ticket with the airlines. None at all.

So the fact that you've never had to make any of these decisions on your own has no bearing on how relevant your advice will be for others?  I'm glad your family apparently includes your input in financial and legal decisions, but in this specific situation you have limited standing.  That does not mean you cannot post your opinion, but you should not talk as if you're on equal footing with those who have to manage their own needs and obligations.

 

[cpotisch]

The fact that I am a minor who has never held a salaried job or gone to court has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it is Amtrak's responsibility to cover a ticket with the airlines. None at all.

So the fact that you've never had to make any of these decisions on your own has no bearing on how relevant your advice will be for others?  I'm glad your family apparently includes you in every financial and legal decision but in this situation you have limited standing.  That doesn't mean you cannot post your opinion but you should not talk as if you're on equal footing with those who have to manage their own needs and obligations without any parental assistance and oversight.

It's not a matter of financial decision making; it's a matter of what Amtrak or the airlines are willing to offer and what their role is supposed to be when they cancel. When a trip gets screwed up like this, I go to the trouble of asking my folks what the company offered them and what they pushed for, and then generally go to the trouble of checking the company's website (and sometimes AU) to see what they are obligated to do and what the precedent is. Of course my parents don't "include me" in anything even remotely close to 1% of all the financial and legal decisions they make, but that's not relevant right now, because all that matters here is what Amtrak is obligated to do when they cancel a train due to circumstances beyond their control.

 

[Dmitri]

It's not a matter of financial decision making; it's a matter of what Amtrak or the airlines are willing to offer and what their role is supposed to be when they cancel. When a trip gets screwed up like this, I go to the trouble of asking my folks what the company offered them and what they pushed for, and then generally go to the trouble of checking the company's website (and sometimes AU) to see what they are obligated to do and what the precedent is. Of course my parents don't "include me" in anything even remotely close to 1% of all the financial and legal decisions they make, but that's not relevant right now, because all that matters here is what Amtrak is obligated to do when they cancel a train due to circumstances beyond their control.

i have yet to hear from anyone , including Amtrak, why exactly they decided to run # 2/ 422 from Tucson today,  2/15, instead of LAX, yet you assume it was beyond their control ? Perhaps they decided it was simply cheaper to run a bus on this section due to some issues, not impossible to have a train, just cheaper. And those who don't like it - yeah we will refund but whatever you had to pay to get to and from the train that is now not a train - thats too bad .. you lose. Sounds fair ?  

I did call Customer Relations this morning .. Nothing beyond the refund, not even a voucher.. They did give a case # and a corporate email, i will contact them but doubt they care. I will also try to tell this story to as many people as i can, Facebook, twitter, tripadvisor forum etc .. As much i like an idea of slowly traveling the country on the train, perhaps they do deserve to be shutdown outside of northeast corridor with an attitude like this. When you sell luxury service ( and sleeper LD train IS a luxury service in the age of airlines) you can't just treat people like this. 

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Please understand that Amtrak rarely has any say. They don't own the tracks except for the NE Corridor and a couple of other random places. The host railroads (Union Pacific in this case) have final say on what they will allow amtrak to run. 

A few years ago I was stuck in Florida for several extra days because Amtrak had to cancel trains due to a snow storm (CSX told Amtrak when they could and couldn't run).  Since airlines also had many cancelled flights I had no choice but to stay in Florida extra days which meant extra hotel costs. I never expected Amtrak to cover those costs, it wasn't their fault and in this case was both an act of god (severe winter storm) and an act of CSX ha. 

It sounds like Amtrak has failed to properly inform you about why the train was cancelled, and that is one of the main reasons that you are so unhappy. That is understandable. But at the same time, airlines have cancelled and changed flights on me with no explanation and no solutions other than to book me on another flight. 

 

[PRR 60]

Guest question asked with multiple answers.