Savannah To Jessup GA Distance?

[niemi24s]

This is probably a good example of how anal a guy can get over measurements, but never having been in this vicinity I'm looking for what might be the customary distance, as shown below:



Thanx in advance for any info.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

I believe that is the normal route. Although this is one of the straightest segments in the Amtrak system, it is indeed impossible for the track mileage to be less than the straight line distance (except in a theoretical case where the track tunnels undergound well below the surface of the Earth).

 

[user 1215]

Are you using American miles or British miles (or are the gallons what are slightly different)?

Could be some sort of legacy anomole taking the Jesup MP from ACL vs Savannah's MP on the ALL or something... dunno...

 

[niemi24s]

I believe that is the normal route.

Thanks for your reply. The 3 mile difference might be the result of either station relocation or simple error. As I understand Google Earth distance measurements, they're along the surface of the Earth but the laser-straight line between the stations going underground would only be about 0.1 mile shorter.

But this isn't the only timetable distance error on this route. The other one involves the Silver Star's side trip into Tampa.

 

[niemi24s]

Are you using American miles or British miles (or are the gallons what are slightly different)?

Nowadays, the American statute mile is the same as the British statute mile by international agreement. The difference between the American and Imperial gallons still exists.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Timetable distances often aren't exact, due to line relocations, mergers, whatever.

 

[niemi24s]

One relocation that occurred in the 1960's was the move to the present Savannah station from the now-gone Union Station, located in the vicinity of 435 Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd - about 3 miles ESE of the present station near the museum roundhouse - about at the top of the letter S in SAV. But that location is about 0.8 miles farther (at 56.18 miles) straight from Jessup and the Jessup station has been in that same place since being built in 1903.

Assuming mileposts were used to find these distances, a minimum error of about 3 miles is even too great to the "iffiness" of mileposts. Perhaps someone used the published mileposts and didn't compensate for route differences? The FRA map is unplugged for the weekend - or is ridiculously slow - so checking that possibility will have to wait.

 

[Palmland]

I think the short answer is that Amtrak timetable showing 52 miles is just wrong. According to the CSX employee timetable, Savannah is at milepost A490.9 (the station is a fraction of a mile sooner) and Jessup is A548.2, or 57.3 miles (via former ACL). An alternate route out of town (former Seaboard) is about a half mile shorter. Not sure how to account for the 55.3 miles as an alternate route, but probably something to do with the two routes out of town.

Now a real mileage difference is the route of the former SAL and ACL between Savannah and Jacksonville. The Seaboard route was about 30 miles shorter. It was a straight shot on a much more coastal alignment. The ACL routing via Jessup was more westerly as it angled to Jessup then south to Jax. So why was the SAL downgraded and portions later abandoned after the 1967 merger? The ACL was a double track racetrack while the Seaboard was single track with lots of high maintenance wooden trestles over the many creeks and coastal marshes.

 

[niemi24s]

I think the short answer is that Amtrak timetable showing 52 miles is just wrong.

I agree wholeheareldly - it's about 2 miles shorter than the shortest possible distance between the two stations. But how that error came to be is a side issue.

The primary issue is which of the two routes (55 miles or 57 miles, when rounded) is the one most commonly taken? Based on your info from the CSX timetable I'm inclined to think it's the 57 mile route. The 55 mile route (also CSX) gets displayed on the FRA map as the passenger route, but I'm not sure how current that FRA map info is. https://fragis.fra.dot.gov/GISFRASafety/

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

I think the short answer is that Amtrak timetable showing 52 miles is just wrong.

I agree wholeheareldly - it's about 2 miles shorter than the shortest possible distance between the two stations. But how that error came to be is a side issue.
The primary issue is which of the two routes (55 miles or 57 miles, when rounded) is the one most commonly taken? Based on your info from the CSX timetable I'm inclined to think it's the 57 mile route. The 55 mile route (also CSX) gets displayed on the FRA map as the passenger route, but I'm not sure how current that FRA map info is. https://fragis.fra.dot.gov/GISFRASafety/

Although I am generally asleep when passing through SAV, there were a few times I was awake and following the train's route on Google Maps. Although this was only 2-3 times, on each occasion the shorter route was followed.

 

[xyzzy]

The ACL was a double track racetrack while the Seaboard was single track with lots of high maintenance wooden trestles over the many creeks and coastal marshes.

Speed limit on many of those SAL trestles was 65, whereas ACL could run 79 on virtually their entire route via Jesup, Nahunta, and Folkston. And eventually, coastal Georgia will get the Big One (the area is way overdue). When it happens, the SAL would have been far more vulnerable than the inland ACL.

 

[west point]

station location ? South of SAV north of downtown Jessup ?

 

[jphjaxfl]

If I recall, the Seaboard Airline between Savannah and Jacksonville did not go through Jesup.

 

[niemi24s]

station location ? South of SAV north of downtown Jessup ?

You must have missed the first paragraph of Post #7:

"One relocation that occurred in the 1960's was the move to the present Savannah station from the now-gone Union Station, located in the vicinity of 435 Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd - about 3 miles ESE of the present station near the museum roundhouse - about at the top of the letter S in SAV. But that location is about 0.8 miles farther (at 56.18 miles) straight from Jessup and the Jessup station has been in that same place since being built in 1903."

 

[niemi24s]

Although I am generally asleep when passing through SAV, there were a few times I was awake and following the train's route on Google Maps. Although this was only 2-3 times, on each occasion the shorter route was followed.

Yours is the first real confirmation of any of the two routes, so I'll have to logically go with 55 miles and the FRA map and conclude this part of the timetable is 3 miles short.

Thanks

 

[user 1215]

Although I am generally asleep when passing through SAV, there were a few times I was awake and following the train's route on Google Maps. Although this was only 2-3 times, on each occasion the shorter route was followed.

Yours is the first real confirmation of any of the two routes, so I'll have to logically go with 55 miles and the FRA map and conclude this part of the timetable is 3 miles short.
Thanks

Whether they go through the yard or around it is up to operations, but I think they try to keep to the longer route (which is what I've seen) because it's typically faster.

Perhaps an unintended consequence is that Amtrak is losing points for average speed between these two stations. 52 miles is booked for 55 minutes. That means, per the time table, the Meteor averages 56.7 MPH. However, in reality, 57 miles (the long way) in 55 minutes is 62.2 MPH. That's a 5.5 MPH real speed difference. They have spend billions trying to get 5 MPH on the NEC for 5 miles to boost the Acela....

 

[niemi24s]

While both routes have yards, only the shorter one seems to have what I'd call a bypass. Another reason for the shorter, 55 mile, route being the customary one.

 

[user 1215]

Honestly not trying to argue with you, but the southern yard also has essentially a bypass track.

From the South where the single track splits into two, there is only one more crossover to the yard, followed by two little-used feeders, then the yard sort of ends. From there, it remains double tracked with two more feeders, and a diamond before entering the station.

Again, I think they just pick the one that's least busy. I've seen them on both.

 

[niemi24s]

Honestly not trying to argue with you, but the southern yard also has essentially a bypass track.

Again, I think they just pick the one that's least busy. I've seen them on both.

Yeah, guess I didn't look close enough. :wub:

With either route being likely, maybe just call it 56 ± 1 miles? Or maybe just let this thread die on the vine. Doesn't really matter much anyway (except to this OCD plagued metrologist ).

 

[user 1215]

Lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[jis]

LOL!

Specially since Amtrak does not calculate fares based on a per mile rate multiplied by the distance.

Back in the days, in the Indian Bradshaw, they used to list two distances - actual km and chargeable km. In most cases they were the same, but still there were many cases where they were different in order to take care of various issues, like possible multiple routes etc. Then things started getting really weird when they started adding various service surcharges on the base fare, until it got too complicated so they dropped those columns in the timetable.

Timetable distances shown, especially on commercial ones available to actual customers are just a close approximation to the reality anyway, since in many cases multiple routings are possible depending on what is operationally convenient at the moment the train is entering the section. May not be so much these days with many alternates torn up.

Incidentally, when a train is diverted due to disruption on its original route in India, the train status timetable shows the expected passing times for each station on the diversion route, which is kind of neat (and somewhat impressive).