Seat numbers; why ACDF instead of ABCD?

[cirdan]

Amtrak marketing wanted to compete against airlines on the NEC. Sounds simple.

I don’t think I’m shadowboxing at all, as half this thread is about Arrow limitations, and I see no evidence that this is an actual thing.

I think I agree.

There was a time that Amtrak believed airlines were a model to be copied and the more they imitated airlines, the better this would be for them. This could be seen in many aspects of operations. Including the naming of "business class" etc.

Since then they have come to see that they should market the things that trains are good at rather than imitating things they are not good at. But bad thinking takes a long time to overcome.

 

[John Bredin]

This lettering scheme sounds like a subtle tweak or mockery of the airlines, not an attempt to copy them. "Looking for the dreaded middle seat? None of those here!" They didn't letter the seats this way in preparation for the day when they could better imitate the airlines by adding middle seats.

It sounds exactly like an effort to "market [one of] the things trains are good at": not shoehorning as many passengers into as little space as possible.

 

[John Bredin]

Also, what's wrong with business class as a name? You would prefer continuing to call it a parlor car, a name devised when parlor evoked comfort and elegance but anachronistic when few people were calling any room of their house a parlor and the word evoked either stuffy stiffness* or funerals?

You could call it first class, as it would be the highest class on a train without sleepers. But business travelers otherwise inclined to take it wouldn't be able to expense their tickets if they work for the myriad of companies and agencies that wouldn't and won't reimburse for first class tickets. (First class is indulgent luxury but business class is a little extra space and comfort to get more work done, dontcha know?)

Slavishly imitating the airlines is foolish, but so would be automatically rejecting any innovations devised by the airlines because they don't correspond to railroad tradition.

*Parlor and lounge both have the same denotation -- a place with more comfortable chairs to sit facing other people and thus be able to socialize -- but I would argue that they have nearly opposite connotations. Who wants to sit in a parlor for an hour? (Sit up straight! Here's some tea. Fix your tie!) Who wouldn't want to sit in a lounge for an hour? (Relax! Have a drink! Loosen your tie if you like.)

 

[jis]

Amtrak marketing wanted to compete against airlines on the NEC. Sounds simple.

I don’t think I’m shadowboxing at all, as half this thread is about Arrow limitations, and I see no evidence that this is an actual thing.

Sounds good. But I thought it was funny that you were going to include all of today's Seat Guru to try to prove something about a 1970s piece of software as adapted by Amtrak But that maybe just me, and can be ignored.

 

[MARC Rider]

I believe the term "parlor car" started going out when Penn Central introduced the Metroliners in 1969. The called the first-class accommodations the "club car," as I suppose they thought the term "parlor car" was too old-fashioned for this new reboot of American passenger rail. Amtrak retained the term "parlor car" on the NEC heritage fleet trains, but as they were converted to Amfleets, they started calling the first class service the "club car." Then they introduced a "business class" product called "Custom Class." These got converted to "first class" and "business class" with the introduction of the Acelas circa 2000.

By the way, in my opinion, some imitation of airline practice is perfectly reasonable for corridor service. It's what passengers are used to for short intercity journeys, and it probably is necessary from a marketing perspective to counter the idea that trains are some sort of outmoded 19th century technology.

 

[jis]

By the way, in my opinion, some imitation of airline practice is perfectly reasonable for corridor service. It's what passengers are used to for short intercity journeys, and it probably is necessary from a marketing perspective to counter the idea that trains are some sort of outmoded 19th century technology.

Afterall, the entire AGR thing started as an airline imitation thing to meet the NEC airline services toe to toe realizing that it is the airline passengers they were after. So it was natural to try to make them feel at home on NEC service. Even now, Amrtak is competing on the NEC primarily for the premier high revenue per ticket service rather than the Mom and Pop or even larger low cost bus services.

 

[cirdan]

*Parlor and lounge both have the same denotation -- a place with more comfortable chairs to sit facing other people and thus be able to socialize -- but I would argue that they have nearly opposite connotations. Who wants to sit in a parlor for an hour? (Sit up straight! Here's some tea. Fix your tie!) Who wouldn't want to sit in a lounge for an hour? (Relax! Have a drink! Loosen your tie if you like.)

How about Metroliner? A name that reminds passengers of a metro (as does the flat-nosed design of the train itself). It screams that catching the train from NYC to DC is no more of a deal than riding the metro four stops downtown. To me that's all about rubbing it in to the airline companies how terribly complex and over-the-top their offering is.

 

[jis]

How about Metroliner? A name that reminds passengers of a metro (as does the flat-nosed design of the train itself). It screams that catching the train from NYC to DC is no more of a deal than riding the metro four stops downtown. To me that's all about rubbing it in to the airline companies how terribly complex and over-the-top their offering is.

Interestingly in France, the door closing chime in Paris Metro, RER and the TGVs is exactly the same tone, or at least used to be upto ten or so years back. Don't know for sure what it is in the newest round of rolling stock introduced since then.

 

[MARC Rider]

How about Metroliner? A name that reminds passengers of a metro (as does the flat-nosed design of the train itself). It screams that catching the train from NYC to DC is no more of a deal than riding the metro four stops downtown. To me that's all about rubbing it in to the airline companies how terribly complex and over-the-top their offering is.

In the 1960's no urban mass transit service in the US was called a "metro." Thus, the name "Metroliner" didn't have the connotation that you think it had. But by the late 1990s, there were a number of "Metro" lines in urban mass transit in the US, and your thinking might have been part of why Amtrak decided to ditch the "Metroliner" and pay a consultant good money to come up the the term "Acela."

 

[jis]

In the 1960's no urban mass transit service in the US was called a "metro." Thus, the name "Metroliner" didn't have the connotation that you think it had. But that might be why, in 2000, Amtrak decided to ditch the "Metroliner" and pay a consultant good money to come up the the term "Acela."

I thought that the name "Metroliner" came from the fact that those trains connected the Metropolitan areas of the North East Corridor. A Liner that connects Metropolitan areas. But I could be wrong.

 

[Trogdor]

Sounds good. But I thought it was funny that you were going to include all of today's Seat Guru to try to prove something about a 1970s piece of software as adapted by Amtrak But that maybe just me, and can be ignored.

I was responding to another poster’s claim which (granted implied, not explicitly stated) that airlines only use ACDF. However, the forum software auto-converts links into giant preview boxes which give them far more prominence than was intended.

 

[MARC Rider]

I thought that the name "Metroliner" came from the fact that those trains connected the Metropolitan areas of the North East Corridor. A Liner that connects Metropolitan areas. But I could be wrong.

No, that sounds about right.

 

[railiner]

Right from the get-go, Amtrak adapted a lot from the airline's, to modernize their organization, including their first president, Roger Lewis.
Even though the design predated Amtrak by several years, it could be said that the Amfleet, derived from the MU Metroliner's were designed to mimick the shape and interior of airliner's.
Also, having a national toll free reservation number, central reservation sales offices, acceptance of major credit cards, and most important, winning a hard-fought battle to gain acceptance into the Airline Reporting Corporation, as a "carrier" to make it easy for all accredited travel agents to sell Amtrak tickets on ARC ticket stock, along with the link between Arrow, SABRE, and other systems.
Opening up of first class lounges, frequent traveler loyalty, and lots more...

 

[Willbridge]

Right from the get-go, Amtrak adapted a lot from the airline's, to modernize their organization, including their first president, Roger Lewis.
Even though the design predated Amtrak by several years, it could be said that the Amfleet, derived from the MU Metroliner's were designed to mimick the shape and interior of airliner's.
Also, having a national toll free reservation number, central reservation sales offices, acceptance of major credit cards, and most important, winning a hard-fought battle to gain acceptance into the Airline Reporting Corporation, as a "carrier" to make it easy for all accredited travel agents to sell Amtrak tickets on ARC ticket stock, along with the link between Arrow, SABRE, and other systems.
Opening up of first class lounges, frequent traveler loyalty, and lots more...

In the late 1960's bits and pieces of these features were adopted by the remaining passenger-friendly railways. The GN honored national credit cards and had a toll-free central reservation bureau for railway agents and travel agents only. They also sold air-rail travel with Western Airlines but I don't know whether that was integrated with the airline's computer or done separately. The CN had computerized car reservations using Air Canada's system. Dragging everyone else down was the SP. By then they had arranged to handle baggage via Pacific Motor Trucking, subject to delay.

An example of why a unified national system was desired -- on the Portland<>Seattle pool line:

• the GN train sales agent honored national credit cards, Rail Travel credit cards and cash and (local?) checks.
• the NP dining car and lounge honored Rail Travel credit cards and cash and (local?) checks.
• the UP dining car and lounge honored Rail Travel credit cards and cash.

Most travel agents couldn't keep this straight, let alone customers. Anything that followed the example of the airlines meant one less thing to explain.

 

[Seaboard92]

I can tell you from being fresh out of airline training on our jets our seats are A/C L are A, C and A/C R D, F. They told us it is so that our customers can always find their preferred seat based on knowing the layout of C and D always being Aisle seats, and A and F always being window seats on narrow body jets. I wonder if that was in Amtrak's mind when they were devising this system that regular riders who had preferences would automatically chose the one that fit their preferences. Now they also said in training this is how all the planes in American's system are organized but I know for a fact the wide bodies include a few more letters.

 

[joelkfla]

our seats are A/C L are A, C and A/C R D, F.

Sorry, I can't quite decode this.

 

[Seaboard92]

Sorry, I can't quite decode this.

A/C L=Aircraft Left
A/C R=Aircraft Right.

A and F are always Windows on narrow body Aircraft, C and D are always Aisles.

 

[jis]

A/C L=Aircraft Left
A/C R=Aircraft Right.

A and F are always Windows on narrow body Aircraft, C and D are always Aisles.

This is in narrow body economy right? Assuming we are talking about American Airlines, I can see in Seatguru that in the First Class Max 8s have B and E as aisle seats as do some 738s, while others have C and D as aisle seats.

 

[Maglev]

I just wanted to throw out the possibility that ACDF was chosen because it has fewer rhyming letters than ABCD.

 

[Seaboard92]

This is in narrow body economy right? Assuming we are talking about American Airlines, I can see in Seatguru that in the First Class Max 8s have B and E as aisle seats as do some 738s, while others have C and D as aisle seats.

You would be correct. I'm referring to AA. And to Economy. Even though our First Class on the CRJ is A, D, F.

 

[EchoSierra]

The ERJ-145s go A-BC on American.