SEHSR (South East High Speed Rail) discussions

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

From DC to Raleigh that track is so smooth. Heard other passengers commenting to that effect.

I have been on that track on the Carolinian a few times in the last few years. I don't remember it being rough but I do remember stopping behind freight and slow speeds which would make any track feel smoother than traveling at the posted speeds.

 

[GDRRiley]

that seems rough, we are going to run though the town but you'll only get 1 of the 5 RT a day stopping there.

I really want to see all the frequency listed in the chart above doubled if not tripled.

 

[jis]

Henderson used to be a stop for a few trains back in the days. The true expresses did not stop there AFAIR.

 

[jis]

Its what you'd expect from a new built line.
The S line improvments should deliver a 160mph railway once they put wires up and with tilting trains

For the uninitiated, what is the "S line"?

 

[GDRRiley]

For the uninitiated, what is the "S line"?

the S line is the old seaboard coastline main from Richmond VA to Tampa, abandoned in parts by CSX. VA and NC bought the section from Raleigh to Richmond (Southeast High speed rail)
The current plan is grade separated 125mph running but in the future wires could be strung up and speeds increased to ~160mph.

 

[jis]

the S line is the old seaboard coastline main from Richmond VA to Tampa, abandoned in parts by CSX. VA and NC bought the section from Raleigh to Richmond (Southeast High speed rail)
The current plan is grade separated 125mph running but in the future wires could be strung up and speeds increased to ~160mph.

Actually Raleigh to Petersburg, not Richmond for the higher speed part.

BTW, NEC will have a couple 160mph segments for the new Acelas, with more segments to be added as catenary is upgraded. The current Acelas will never get certified for 160mph apparently. These will happen much before anyone strings wires on the S Line.

 

[GDRRiley]

Actually Raleigh to Petersburg, not Richmond for the higher speed part.

BTW, NEC will have a couple 160mph segments for the new Acelas, with more segments to be added as catenary is upgraded. The current Acelas will never get certified for 160mph apparently. These will happen much before anyone strings wires on the S Line.

I know they'll have some. 160mph segments, I know they need to do more replacement of the 30s era stuff.

I was mostly mentioning it because new or lines using old ROW but upgraded for intercity if they are going high speed want the 160mph+ mark

 

[jis]

I was mostly mentioning it because new or lines using old ROW but upgraded for intercity if they are going high speed want the 160mph+ mark

Yes. But about the S Line they are still arguing about whether they want to spend the money for restructuring the curves etc. We'll see how that goes. It is not really a terribly straight alignment. I agree that they should spend the money, but I have learned to wait until I see it to believe it when it comes to passenger rail in this country.

 

[west point]

Since the "S" line from south of Norlina to Raleigh is still served by CSX freight the speed plans for that section have not heard.

 

[jis]

Since the "S" line from south of Norlina to Raleigh is still served by CSX freight the speed plans for that section have not heard.

One does not have to guess and speculate. There is a Tier II FEIS that pretty much states what the speed limits will be in the rebuilt corridor, freight or not.

https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/fra_net/15274/SEHSR-R2R-Signed_FEIS.pdf
The EIS pretty much indicates that the goals is to stick with 110mph at all places where curves are involved and there are numerous curves on that segment of the S Line.

 

[west point]

The various detailed track and surrounding terrain pictures show many locations detailing the acquiring land on the inside of current track curve profiles. What is going to be more expensive is the long bridge over the lake and elinating previous grade crossings. Since HrSR mostly prefes flat track when available that will probably mean all crossing going under or over the tracks. Then of course there are the various structures built on the ROW as encrouchments/

 

[jis]

The various detailed track and surrounding terrain pictures show many locations detailing the acquiring land on the inside of current track curve profiles. What is going to be more expensive is the long bridge over the lake and elinating previous grade crossings. Since HrSR mostly requires flat track that will mean all crossing going under or over the tracks. Then of course there are the various structures built on the ROW as encrouchments/

Who says HrSR requires flat tracks. Typically HSRs have grades even upto 4%+. The Brightline HrSR is anything but flat even in Florida. It rises and then falls specifically to ease road over and underpasses between Cocoa and Orlando.

As a matter of fact there is at least one place on the LGV SE where there is a speed limit for a vertical curve too. If the train travels at a speed higher than the speed limit it could lose contact with the rails!

 

[west point]

Instead of require should have said preferrs.. Am changing it. Less power required to not have to go up and down hills even small ones.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

The various detailed track and surrounding terrain pictures show many locations detailing the acquiring land on the inside of current track curve profiles. What is going to be more expensive is the long bridge over the lake and elinating previous grade crossings. Since HrSR mostly prefes flat track when available that will probably mean all crossing going under or over the tracks. Then of course there are the various structures built on the ROW as encrouchments/

I don't want to burst your bubble, but I guess these ICE trains climbing and descending a 4% grade on a viaduct is a fluke. Per Reddit, the trains are operating at track speed of 186mph.



High speed rail lines are getting very flexible to build these days. The most difficult issues when it comes to these projects are land acquisition and funding.

 

[jis]

Instead of require should have said preferrs.. Am changing it. Less power required to not have to go up and down hills even small ones.

The bigger consideration usually is overall cost of construction and ownership of the right of way. If a right of way cannot be funded for building the question of energy consumption is moot.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

The text below was in an email from one of Senator Tillis. I am no fan of his but he did vote in favor of this bill. $1 Billion is going to get things done.

---------------------------------
Earlier today I received a call from Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg who had some great news. The U.S. Department of Transportation will be providing a $1 billion grant for a new passenger rail route between Raleigh and Richmond, VA.
This will be huge for economic development in the region and will better connect North Carolina with the Washington, D.C. metro area and the Northeast Corridor.
The $1 billion grant was made possible by the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law that I helped negotiate, write, and pass into law. It's an example of what we can accomplish when both parties work together for the good of our nation.
This historic investment to rebuild our infrastructure has already delivered more than $10 billion for North Carolina, including funding for hundreds of infrastructure projects in communities across the state

 

[west point]

Wonder how far that $1B will go replacing the bridge over Lake Gaston? Since the ALC-Es have proven they will go 125 shame that that speed is not set for many sections. Here is link of the various needed ROW for 110 & 125.

https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/Rail-Division-Resources/Documents/sehsr_feis_nc_hm_psh_55.pdf

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Wonder how far that $1B will go replacing the bridge over Lake Gaston? Since the ALC-Es have proven they will go 125 shame that that speed is not set for many sections. Here is link of the various needed ROW for 110 & 125.

https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/Rail-Division-Resources/Documents/sehsr_feis_nc_hm_psh_55.pdf

Big picture, the Tier II was approved, next step is engineering.

To be clear about that PDF, it's from Section U, on the outskirts of Raleigh, and shows the curve widening. It also shows how detailed a Tier II is.

The bridge over Lake Gaston near the state border is in Section L. See https://railroads.dot.gov/environme...theast-high-speed-rail-richmond-va-raleigh-nc the PDF "TIER II Final EIS," page 2-61, pdf page 212 (of 1141!):

Roanoke River/Lake Gaston – Although the existing track has been removed throughout this area of the Project, the existing single-track bridge remains intact. Under Preferred Alternative VA1/NC1 the Project intends to utilize the piers and substructure of the existing bridge, as well as the superstructure (girders and decking).

I can't recall, from the 1141 pages plus appendices and other materials, if costs estimates are given. But the highest must be Section AA, the beginning of the study, starting from Richmond Main Street Station (RVM), crossing the James River, and redesigning the freight yard in South Richmond, a.k.a. Manchester, then the many roads of the suburbs. About that bridge (but, spoiler alert, see other quote about the bridge from DC2RVA later in this post):

James River – Heading south out of Main Street Station, the existing single-track railroad bridge is elevated on supports built to accommodate double-track through the triple railroad crossing; it remains elevated and transitions to a single-track width as it passes through a gated opening in a floodwall on the north side of the James River before proceeding to cross the river on a single-track bridge.

The designs for Preferred Alternative VA1 require addition of a second track across the James River. The proposed alignment would include a new bridge adjacent to and on the east side of the existing bridge as well as an enlargement of openings in the floodwalls to accommodate the addition of the proposed double track. The specific configuration for the addition of a second track railroad crossing of the James River, however, will be determined during final design within the limits as defined in the Project Tier II FEIS. The addition of a second track will expand railroad capacity and alleviate congestion at this major choke point.

Ah, the Triple Crossing!

I'd forgotten the study does not include the still slow section north of there, from RVR to RVM, through Acca Yard and worse (an astonishing 29 minutes, if you can be astonished while going that slowly. Acca was previously improved to make the western bypass easier to use, but at the end of this project only the Autotrain will use the bypass.) That RVR-RVM part is in DC2RVA, later adjusted for an important cemetery site just north of RVM. DC2RVA is under construction, but I'd guess the southern part is scheduled near the end.

In fact, RVM south to Centralia (about 10 miles), including the James River bridge, is in both SEHSR (Richmond to Raleigh) and in DC2RVA. Now, SEHSR (R2R) is Tier II approved, awaiting engineering, while DC2RVA is Tier II approved, under construction. Any consequences of that? Needs money either way.

One consequence, DC2RVA splits the difference expressed in the SEHSR caveat about "limits" to a new bridge over the James. It's a new bridge, but single-track:

Construct substructure/foundation for a new two-track rail bridge (DC2RVA Project includes construction of a single track bridge with space to add a second track, if required for future capacity) on the S-Line across the James River.

I wonder if the agreement with the freight railroads requires the shift of Amtrak off the bypass west of Richmond before the S-line can open.

Finally, Newport News does get faster service by shaving down that 29 minutes, but Norfolk was chosen for inclusion in HSR over NPN. Maps showing both as part of HSR were amended to show only NFK roughly twenty years ago. And as it turned out, HSR to NFK is not in the plans discussed here. The new NPN does open early next year, at a location up the line by the Newport News / Williamsburg airport. Current NPN is on the edge of downtown. The ideal plan there would have bypassed the port yard and still served downtown, a somewhat vacant area, the kind of place new housing is going in around the region; and Hampton, by one measure the oldest city in the U.S. Over 25,000 people work at the Newport News Shipyard, not to mention the port, but transit is all bus.

 

[Palmland]

In this 1963 timetable the Seaboard's Silver Meteor and Star ran nonstop from Petersburg to Raleigh in 2hrs 10 min for the 135 miles. That's an average speed of 62 mph. Not bad for speed restrictions on curvy track, 5 river crosssings, and many small town grade crossings.

By comparison, ACL's Florida Special and West Coast Champion ran the 98 miles from Petersburg to Rocky Mount at an average speed of 69mph. An old ACL dispatcher once told me they would often run the passenger trains as fast as100mph to make up time. That was in the days before all those pesky safety rules and government regulations!

 

[Palmland]

Saw this SEHSR update on the another site. Apparently Mayor Pete hosted the start of construction of the Raleigh-Petersburg segment. I am somewhat amazed that the first segment, 17 miles Raleigh-Wake Forest, was funded to the tune of $1.09 billion! And this portion of the line is still in service.

Nevertheless it’s good to see actual progress. I see NC DOT will extend the Piedmonts there as soon as it’s completed. Only another 117 miles to Petersburg.

 

[thefirewarde]

Has it been announced exactly what the scope of that grant covers? I know there's a lot of grade separations planned, double tracking, new Raleigh platforms, and a Wake Forest station in those 17 miles, but are they covering any associated improvements on the NCRR corridor or engineering work on the rest of the NC S-Line section?

 

[daybeers]

Saw this SEHSR update on the another site. Apparently Mayor Pete hosted the start of construction of the Raleigh-Petersburg segment. I am somewhat amazed that the first segment, 17 miles Raleigh-Wake Forest, was funded to the tune of $1.09 billion! And this portion of the line is still in service.

Nevertheless it’s good to see actual progress. I see NC DOT will extend the Piedmonts there as soon as it’s completed. Only another 117 miles to Petersburg.

$59m per mile?!? How are they ever going to afford the rest?

 

[thefirewarde]

$59m per mile?!? How are they ever going to afford the rest?

One assumes by not building it through two downtowns, though I'd love to know exactly what's covered by the grant too. The section being built has a LOT of at-grade crossings right now.

 

[jis]

One assumes by not building it through two downtowns, though I'd love to know exactly what's covered by the grant too. The section being built has a LOT of at-grade crossings right now.

All the existing grade crossings will be grade separated.

 

[thefirewarde]

I got curious and went on OpenRailwayMap. There looks to be seventeen at-grade crossings and about sixteen bridges or already separated crossings, including a couple highways - some are probably just a matter of grading and laying track, but there's also bits like the Hodges St, Crabtree Creek, and Crabtree Creek Trail bridge which seems like a 375' span. No California HSR but not just an overpass either.