SEHSR (South East High Speed Rail) discussions

[Amtrak_Carolinian_2020]

When the CSX S Line tracks allow high speed rail between Raleigh, NC and Richmond, VA along the I-85 Corridor as part of the future SEHSR Line, what will that mean for the future of Amtrak’s Carolinian? I heard that the Carolinian could be rerouted onto the S Line for a much quicker trip between Raleigh and Richmond, potentially running more than one trip between Charlotte and New York daily. This could connect the North Carolina metro areas with the bigger cities of the Mid Atlantic and the Northeast much more quickly. However, that would mean that the Carolinian would lose its stops in Selma, Wilson, and Rocky Mount, meaning Eastern NC would lose its train connection to the Piedmont region. It would be interesting to see an extended Piedmont frequency run a round trip between Charlotte and Rocky Mount. I wonder if Amtrak would ever consider adding local stops to the Carolinian on the NEC such as New Carrollton, BWI Airport, and Metropark, like they did with the Palmetto a few years back. Also, if the Carolinian does not get rerouted and continues to serve its current route, I would like to see a schedule change to the Eastern NC Thruway Motor Coach Service, by running the buses to arrive Wilson earlier and depart Wilson later, allowing for connections to and from the Carolinian’s northern destinations. I think some people would prefer an 8:30 arrival into New York versus a midnight arrival. What do y’all think?

 

[Austin17]

The full SESHR plan calls for five round trips a day using the S-Line: four SESHR corridor round trips plus the Silver Star. However, there would still be one additional round trip a day using the Carolinian's existing route on the A-Line.

So the full service would be like this:

- 4 round trips a day between Raleigh and Charlotte only (Piedmont)
- 4 round trips a day between NYC/Washington D.C. and Raleigh using the S-Line (SESHR Corridor service). 3 of those round trips would continue to Charlotte, but one would terminate in Raleigh (to ensure more favorable operating hours up north and avoid arriving/leaving Charlotte late at night).
-1 round trip a day between NYC/Washington D.C., Raleigh and Charlotte using the existing Carolinian route (Carolinian)
-The Silver Star, using the S-Line.

Here is the Richmond to Raleigh Tier II Final EIS, where you can find the info on page ES-7/page 20 of the PDF.

Chapter 2 of the Draft Environmental Impact Statement for the DC2RVA portion of the corridor also has nice maps showing the full proposed service in Virginia.

 

[Amtrak_Carolinian_2020]

View attachment 16461 View attachment 16462 View attachment 16463 The full SESHR plan calls for five round trips a day using the S-Line: four SESHR corridor round trips plus the Silver Star. However, there would still be one additional round trip a day using the Carolinian's existing route on the A-Line.

So the full service would be like this:

- 4 round trips a day between Raleigh and Charlotte only (Piedmont)
- 4 round trips a day between NYC/Washington D.C. and Raleigh using the S-Line (SESHR Corridor service). 3 of those round trips would continue to Charlotte, but one would terminate in Raleigh (to ensure more favorable operating hours up north and avoid arriving/leaving Charlotte late at night).
-1 round trip a day between NYC/Washington D.C., Raleigh and Charlotte using the existing Carolinian route (Carolinian)
-The Silver Star, using the S-Line.

Here is the Richmond to Raleigh Tier II Final EIS, where you can find the info on page ES-7/page 20 of the PDF.

Chapter 2 of the Draft Environmental Impact Statement for the DC2RVA portion of the corridor also has a nice map showing the full proposed service in Virginia.

View attachment 16462
View attachment 16461

Oh, wow! Thanks for the info!

 

[west point]

One correction. The "S" line will only be HrSR ( HrSR <126 MPH ). NC will determine what times Carolinian will leave CLT and its route. The problems with serving Selma, Wilson, Rocky Mount are many especially for service north bound. maybe thru way bus(s) to Norlina ? A present tally of traffic to the north from those stations to the north would enlighten ?

One possibility would be for the Carolinian to leave CLT as scheduled and follow present route as published above. Then initiate a day departure from Atlanta at about 0700, CLT noonish, RGH 1500, RVR 1730, WASH 2000, NYP 2330. That would fill in one of the proposed trains from CLT - RGH - RVR - WASH - NYP. Southbound ??? as ATL train time would be too close to Carolinian unless it leaves 2 -3 hours later from NYP !

This all moot until "S" line is rebuilt and Amtrak gets a lot more single level equipment.​

 

[sttom]

Just looking at the maps, having the Piedmont cover stops that could be dropped would make sense. So would trains to Morehead City, Fayetteville and Wilmington. North Carolina has a lot of room for growth. But on topic, if the Carolinian can be rerouted with a shorter trip and a second trip per day, it should be done so long as the stops losing service get something to replace it.

 

[Amtrak_Carolinian_2020]

Just looking at the maps, having the Piedmont cover stops that could be dropped would make sense. So would trains to Morehead City, Fayetteville and Wilmington. North Carolina has a lot of room for growth. But on topic, if the Carolinian can be rerouted with a shorter trip and a second trip per day, it should be done so long as the stops losing service get something to replace it.

Rerouting the Carolinian on a shorter trip is what I thought they were gonna do, running on the NS Line from Charlotte to Raleigh, cutting Northeast on the CSX S Line from Raleigh to Petersburg, then continue the route on the CSX A Line/RF&P and Amtrak NEC as it always has. I also thought that with the new CSX intermodal facility being built in Rocky Mount, that the S Line was a new way to give some Amtrak trains (Carolinian and Silver Star) the right of way on the S Line, while letting CSX dominate the A Line (with the exception of the Palmetto, Silver Meteor, and Auto Train). They could potentially run a single daily round trip from Raleigh to Morehead and back, with stops in Selma, Goldsboro, Kinston, New Bern, Havelock, and Morehead City. The line is owned by NS, and most of it to my knowledge is single track and not real fast. Perhaps that’s why they run the thruway motor coaches from Wilson to Morehead and Wilmington, as a connection to/from the Palmetto and Carolinian (Charlotte to Raleigh segment only).

 

[west point]

Selma - Morehead City is single track with almost no passing sidings Several sidings are in te long range plans by NC RR. As to wen have forgotten when.

 

[AGM.12]

I recall from earlier plans that there would be a third track built parallel to the A line from Petersburg to Centralia where it would connect to the S Line to stop at RVM and continue on to Staples Mill Rd. Except for Auto Train, all other Amtrak trains would use this hybrid alignment.

 

[Amtrak_Carolinian_2020]

I recall from earlier plans that there would be a third track built parallel to the A line from Petersburg to Centralia where it would connect to the S Line to stop at RVM and continue on to Staples Mill Rd. Except for Auto Train, all other Amtrak trains would use this hybrid alignment.

Centralia is in Chester, about halfway between Petersburg and Richmond, correct? And would trains on the S Line use the Petersburg station? If the RVM that you’re referring to is Richmond Main Street Station, the recently published news about the upgrades to Amtrak’s Virginia service from Washington to Richmond mentions that trains other than Newport News originating/terminating Northeast Regional trains could eventually use Main Street in addition to Staples Mill.
https://wtop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/train2.jpg

 

[Palmetto]

From what I remember reading, in order to serve Main Street Richmond, it's the CSX Bellwood Subdivision that needs quite a bit of work so passenger trains can run on it. That leaves the current route at Centralia, IINM.

 

[west point]

The Bellwood sub has many industries on the east side. Cannot remember how many switches are on the sub for access to the customers ?

 

[Austin17]

Centralia is in Chester, about halfway between Petersburg and Richmond, correct? And would trains on the S Line use the Petersburg station? If the RVM that you’re referring to is Richmond Main Street Station, the recently published news about the upgrades to Amtrak’s Virginia service from Washington to Richmond mentions that trains other than Newport News originating/terminating Northeast Regional trains could eventually use Main Street in addition to Staples Mill.
https://wtop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/train2.jpg

The chosen plan is that eventually every train in Richmond will serve both Staples Mill Road and Main Street, and everything that passes through Petersburg, including the five trips a day on the S-Line, will serve it (except the Auto Train, of course).

From here

 

[Austin17]

nice to see. I wonder what the consist will look like as they still don't have their replacement ones.

still odd to me the S line will be upgraded with grade separations but only be 110mph.

I am guessing curves or maybe some residual freight which would keep the rails in less than ideal shape from all the weight of a freight train. I thought that odd as well.

they could likely push the superelevation harder assuming theres no freight on the line

every 3 hours mean you can't turn the same set given the 3:15 running time they could maybe get that slightly lower if they got approval for 90mph
I'd say it will be really exciting when they hit bi hourly

If you mean the S-line between Raleigh and Petersburg, the Virginia – North Carolina High Speed Rail Compact has stated that once fully reconstructed as planned, the line could support speeds up to 150 MPH assuming electrification and tilting. As I understand it, the 110 MPH planned speed is just because the Southeast High Speed Rail studies are so old that they are based on the Genesis locos with their 110 MPH top speed, and the states just never updated their plans to take advantage of the newer 125 MPH-capable locomotives.

 

[TransitTyrant]

they could likely push the superelevation harder assuming theres no freight on the line

The plan is that freight will use the S Line. NC must feel the added revenue from freight is more important than 125mph speeds.

That said unless they were to electrify it, a single diesel Charger really wouldn’t be able to take full advantage of 125mph speeds. With 6-8 cars it will struggle to get the train up to those speeds quickly.

 

[jis]

The plan is that freight will use the S Line. NC must feel the added revenue from freight is more important than 125mph speeds.

That said unless they were to electrify it, a single diesel Charger really wouldn’t be able to take full advantage of 125mph speeds. With 6-8 cars it will struggle to get the train up to those speeds quickly.

Allocating two diesel Chargers per train would probably be significantly cheaper than electrifying if that were the only reason requiring electrification. That is the approach Brightline is taking with its 125mph ,and even possibly a little higher speed than that operation in Florida.

There are many other very good reasons to electrify though.

BTW, there is nothing really stopping freight and 125mph trains sharing trackage. Happens on the NEC all the time.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

Allocating two diesel Chargers per train would probably be significantly cheaper than electrifying if that were the only reason requiring electrification. That is the approach Brightline is taking with its 125mph ,and even possibly a little higher speed than that operation in Florida.

There are many other very good reasons to electrify though.

BTW, there is nothing really stopping freight and 125mph trains sharing trackage. Happens on the NEC all the time.

How much MOW is required to make both of those modes have access to the track? I would appreciate the freight revenue helping keep the line open and viable but would the extra MOW costs be spent to keep speeds at 125 MOH versus 90 or such for passenger.

 

[TransitTyrant]

Allocating two diesel Chargers per train would probably be significantly cheaper than electrifying if that were the only reason requiring electrification. That is the approach Brightline is taking with its 125mph ,and even possibly a little higher speed than that operation in Florida.

There are many other very good reasons to electrify though.

BTW, there is nothing really stopping freight and 125mph trains sharing trackage. Happens on the NEC all the time.

Freight is certainly compatible with 125mph speeds and obviously NC/V should go the extra mile.

I’m certain the train sets used will be dual mode ICTs so where would they attach a second locomotive at? The whole point of the ICTs is to avoid the engine change in DC. They’ll only need one locomotive for the NEC portion of the route.

 

[jis]

Freight is certainly compatible with 125mph speeds and obviously NC/V should go the extra mile.

I’m certain the train sets used will be dual mode ICTs so where would they attach a second locomotive at? The whole point of the ICTs is to avoid the engine change in DC. They’ll only need one locomotive for the NEC portion of the route.

The ICT architecture allows the use of a second powerhead at the other end instead of a cab car. Assuming they want to operate at 125mph in diesel mode, they will need to buy equipment capable of that. My point is that they don't have to electrify at great cost just to enable that. Though as I said before there are other good reasons to electrify.

 

[GDRRiley]

The plan is that freight will use the S Line. NC must feel the added revenue from freight is more important than 125mph speeds.

That said unless they were to electrify it, a single diesel Charger really wouldn’t be able to take full advantage of 125mph speeds. With 6-8 cars it will struggle to get the train up to those speeds quickly.

oh thats really strange, MOW increase vs freight rate must work out.

with 6-7 cars a charger would do okay but not ideal however its not like there is a lot of stops planned

really though this project like most in NC should all be under wires, the state owns all the tracks they run on

If you mean the S-line between Raleigh and Petersburg, the Virginia – North Carolina High Speed Rail Compact has stated that once fully reconstructed as planned, the line could support speeds up to 150 MPH assuming electrification and tilting. As I understand it, the 110 MPH planned speed is just because the Southeast High Speed Rail studies are so old that they are based on the Genesis locos with their 110 MPH top speed, and the states just never updated their plans to take advantage of the newer 125 MPH-capable locomotives.

nice to see at some point they want to get the line to be true high speed.
ah okay that would make sense

 

[John Bobinyec]

As far as I know, they’ll be using the “existing” right of way between Petersburg and Raleigh. If that’s true, I doubt seriously that they’ll get speeds of 90 mph, let alone 110 mph.
jb

 

[TransitTyrant]

As far as I know, they’ll be using the “existing” right of way between Petersburg and Raleigh. If that’s true, I doubt seriously that they’ll get speeds of 90 mph, let alone 110 mph.
jb

It’s being rebuilt to 110mph speeds.

 

[west point]

Have a problem with allowing freight. Cars that weigh almost twice at max gross weight does a number on the track. Double weight may damage track 4 more than 4 times greater than Amtrak cars. As well flat wheels are prevelant around here on CSX. Amtrak cars being close to always the same weight do not have the problem that empty freight cars can do damaging wheels. That damages track as well NOw if CSX was required to surface the track between times where Amtrak would need to do only once every 3 rd or forth time. Capitol corridor has to be surfaced much more than if jjust UP was using it.

 

[John Bobinyec]

It’s being rebuilt to 110mph speeds.

And what of the curves?
jb

 

[Old MM]

From DC to Raleigh that track is so smooth. Heard other passengers commenting to that effect.

 

[jis]

And what of the curves?
jb

There exists a Tier II FEIS which mentions realignment of curves. One can find the details at

https://railroads.dot.gov/elibrary/...raleigh-nc-tier-ii-final-environmental-impact
This is considered to be a shovel ready project with an FEIS in place with a ROD. It is not like they are just starting to figure things out. The FEIS can be found at:

https://railroads.dot.gov/elibrary/...raleigh-nc-tier-ii-final-environmental-impact
The root page for the Tier II EIS is at:

https://railroads.dot.gov/environme...theast-high-speed-rail-richmond-va-raleigh-nc
The corresponding Tier I FEIS can be found at:

https://railroads.dot.gov/environment/environmental-reviews/southeast-high-speed-rail-tier-1-eis
And yes, the FEIS is for a 110mph mixed use project. The EIS' make that quite clear. Of course there may be short slower segments in specific places like there is in all routes, even the real HSR routes abroad.