SEPTA cancels contract with CRRC

[Dutchrailnut]

The Contract for 145 Multi Levels is canceled, The cars ordered in 2017 were way overdue and lots of problems.
https://www.inquirer.com/transporta...ew7hUa3AaoySB7gkDiaPWyxuDP6gJFIYbpVazQ-QjKlhY

and

https://www.universalhub.com/2024/philadelphia-transit-authority-gives-crrc-trains

 

[Acela150]

And the best part is that Septa still hasn't learned a lesson from this. IF and that's a big IF they go for another order they'll order from the lowest bidder again who doesn't have a reputation. One would think that the Rotem and this order will show the big wigs at Septa to change their ways, but my gut tells me otherwise.

 

[Septa9739]

@Acela150, Once upon a time I would have said that’s a horribly cynical take, but then I started riding SEPTA.

I say thank goodness, it was a stupid idea to run double decker locomotive hauled trained on the densest commuter rail system in the nation. It would have adversely affected schedules, and they would have tried to stick them everywhere, regardless of what they said.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

And the best part is that Septa still hasn't learned a lesson from this. IF and that's a big IF they go for another order they'll order from the lowest bidder again who doesn't have a reputation. One would think that the Rotem and this order will show the big wigs at Septa to change their ways, but my gut tells me otherwise.

Do they have a choice? Many government agencies have to take the lowest bid.

 

[Acela150]

Do they have a choice? Many government agencies have to take the lowest bid.

You always have a choice.

 

[Septa9739]

If you put the quarter billion wasted on the Key and the $180,000,000 here together (Only about $50,000,000 was wasted… ONLY!), plus interest, you get most of Silverliner VI done.

 

[jis]

Do they have a choice? Many government agencies have to take the lowest bid.

I think a competent contract manager can always figure out a reject with cause argument if such is indicated. But to do so first the contract manager has to be competent enough to evaluate a contract adequately to figure out that it is no good. SEPTA's fundamental problem apparently is in not having competent purchase contract management.

 

[PVD]

Yes it is usually "lowest responsible bidder" not just lowest bidder. Solid contract management folks carefully craft the reasons to disqualify a bidder to minimize litigation (or its chance of success)

 

[daybeers]

SEPTA's fundamental problem apparently is in not having competent purchase contract management.

Fixed that for you

 

[Amtrak25]

The Contract for 145 Multi Levels is canceled, The cars ordered in 2017 were way overdue and lots of problems.

So much for playing copycat with NJT, then going for the cheap imitation.

The Silverliner IV, equivalent of the NJT Arrow II, must be pushing 50 y.o. about now. NJT scrapped their version 30 years ago.

 

[BlackDiamond]

@Acela150, Once upon a time I would have said that’s a horribly cynical take, but then I started riding SEPTA.

I say thank goodness, it was a stupid idea to run double decker locomotive hauled trained on the densest commuter rail system in the nation. It would have adversely affected schedules, and they would have tried to stick them everywhere, regardless of what they said.

I believe they were planning to use them primarily on peak hour express trains which make less stops so therefore the slower acceleration of locomotive hauled would be less of an issue. It should also be noted the acceleration of the ACS-64 is pretty good compared to earlier models.

Although with the post COVID work from home phenomenon there may be less need for peak hour express trains and more of an even service throughout the day, which would favor EMUs over loco hauled.

 

[Amtrak25]

So they are going to have to find someone who will build a clone of the Silverliner V, the original manufacturer having left the US ? Maybe Kawasaki ConnDOT M-8 with 25 cycle transformers, but with traps ?

 

[jis]

One quick way to get new stuff may be something like Siemens Desirio based on Venture car shells. Or Alstom Aventra or CAF Civity. All will require to have a flat end rather than the streamlined noses to fit in with the way things are done at SEPTA.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

What a mess this has turned into, as for options. It was back in February that Kawasaki delivered a pair of M8s for Metro North, which were the last ones to be delivered for Metro North. So you can't rule Kawasaki out. Alstom has its Adessia and Coradia family trains. It's really up to Septa to see what they want. It would make sense for them to order EMUs, since they're planning to phase out the Silverliner IVs.

 

[PVD]

Can't rule them out, but Kawasaki is pretty busy with the r-211 order for NYC right now.

 

[Paniolo Man]

CRRC has been a disaster for every US agency that has ordered from them.

Has there been any move to acquire the cars elsewhere? I assume SEPTA still needs the capacity.

What is the plan for the few cars that were largely complete?

 

[BlackDiamond]

CRRC has been a disaster for every US agency that has ordered from them.

Has there been any move to acquire the cars elsewhere? I assume SEPTA still needs the capacity.

What is the plan for the few cars that were largely complete?

They are getting the new cars from Hitachi Rail

 

[MARC Rider]

They are getting the new cars from Hitachi Rail

The cars from Hitachi are for the Market-Frankford subway-el line. The CRRC cars they were buying were for the Regional Rail system.

 

[jis]

The cars from Hitachi are for the Market-Frankford subway-el line. The CRRC cars they were buying were for the Regional Rail system.

I have not come across who they are substituting for CRRC for the Regional Rail equipment order.

I wonder what is wrong with CRRC's non-domestic order manufacturing entity. It is not just a US problem. Apparently CRRC is so bad that even Banglaedsh Railway sent back a few cars that had been delivered from their large order and canceled the rest of the order from CRRC and transferred the funding to a new order for 200 cars from IRCON and some from PT Inka.

 

[JWM]

Buy cheap, get cheap or nothing at all.

 

[George Harris]

Buy cheap, get cheap or nothing at all.

It is real simple. Cutbacks on quality engineering will bite you later. Get competent specification writers. It is not how thick it is. It is how clear and unambiguousness it is. If you see something named followed by "or equal" throw both specification and the writer out the door.

 

[BlackDiamond]

The cars from Hitachi are for the Market-Frankford subway-el line. The CRRC cars they were buying were for the Regional Rail system.

Oops

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I think Septa could end up adding more Silverliner VI multiple units to the order. In addition to phasing out the Silverliner IVs, they'll get more MUs to replace the cancelled CRRC order. The Silverliner VIs will just become a bigger order.

 

[Septa9739]

Has there been any move to acquire the cars elsewhere? I assume SEPTA still needs the capacity.

The purchase was part of a fool’s errand to worsen the ratio of peak to off peak trains that would have hurt SEPTA financially and in terms of its efficacy as a carrier. The densest (in terms of station spacing) commuter railroad in the country had no good reason to buy the heaviest locomotive hauled coaches they could find and only use them at rush hour, all in a crusade against the middle seat, which in all honesty, might get used twice a day. They would have required longer schedules if used on anything besides peak express service, and possibly even still. EMU’s can do everything locomotive hauled equipment can, but not vice versa, and the new leadership seems to get that.

To answer your question, inquiries are out re SILVERLINER VI, an EMU project to replace the now 50 year Silverliner IV equipment. The capacity these cars would have provided really isn’t needed with the shifts in demand, so I would doubt we’ll see an order over 275. Trains are needed at midday and evening when they’re sitting in yards, not at rush hour when mostly everything is rolling.

 

[Paniolo Man]

The purchase was part of a fool’s errand to worsen the ratio of peak to off peak trains that would have hurt SEPTA financially and in terms of its efficacy as a carrier. The densest (in terms of station spacing) commuter railroad in the country had no good reason to buy the heaviest locomotive hauled coaches they could find and only use them at rush hour, all in a crusade against the middle seat, which in all honesty, might get used twice a day. They would have required longer schedules if used on anything besides peak express service, and possibly even still. EMU’s can do everything locomotive hauled equipment can, but not vice versa, and the new leadership seems to get that.

To answer your question, inquiries are out re SILVERLINER VI, an EMU project to replace the now 50 year Silverliner IV equipment. The capacity these cars would have provided really isn’t needed with the shifts in demand, so I would doubt we’ll see an order over 275. Trains are needed at midday and evening when they’re sitting in yards, not at rush hour when mostly everything is rolling.

How far along is procurement of these vehicles? Is there a public timeline as to when a contract may be awarded?