SEPTA Iconic Green and Cream Trolleys returning to service June 16, 2024

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BlackDiamond

BlackDiamond

Streetcar Motorman
AU Supporting Member
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Philadelphia's Route 15 returns to trolley service with rebuilt PCC cars with new propulsion systems.
https://patch.com/pennsylvania/phil...cream-septa-trolleys-returning-service-sunday

"The historical trolleys will officially return to service on Route 15 starting Sunday.

Presidents' Conference Committee Trolleys embody a rich history in Philadelphia – a staple for 75 years along Route 15, which serves Port Richmond to West Philadelphia via Girard Avenue, SEPTA said. Over the last four years, SEPTA’s dedicated workforce has meticulously taken apart and rebuilt the trolleys piece by piece."
 
mfastx said:
I'm in the minority here but I am not a fan of using historic trolleys. Can we be serious about transit and use modern streetcars?
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They have been modernized many times over. They use modern trucks, modern drives and modern power trains. There is little "historic" about them apart from the shape.

That said, i do understand that SEPTA are seeking to acquire modern low-floor articulated streetcars from Alstom to replace their entire present fleet: That would be both PCCs and Kawasakis.
 
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mfastx said:
I'm in the minority here but I am not a fan of using historic trolleys. Can we be serious about transit and use modern streetcars?
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Why can’t transit do both?
A “restomod”, a term borrowed from the auto restoration world, has a mechanically modern vehicle, in a restored vintage body, so that it is more than a museum piece, and can be reliably used as a “daily driver”.
That way, it not only serves as public transportation, but also serves as a tourist attraction…😎
 
Perhaps a little context from someone who rides the 15 might be helpful. SEPTA is a broke blue collar transit system. The 15 is a blue collar worker’s route, one of the busiest in the system. It’s far from the most dangerous, especially east of Girard College. We can’t afford to play games. If we could it wouldn’t be there. The PCC’s are actually much more reliable and provide better service than the Kawasaki’s since they’ve been rebuilt twice now. We’ve been using the PCC’s since they’re the only rolling trolleys available right now because of chronic underinvestment. Real riders greatly prefer them to bus service, smoother ride and more spacious (at least in perception). We keep using them until they are replaced by the articulated Alstom’s when they come, but since the Kawaski’s are shot, rebuilding the PCC’s allows the 15 to be done last, increasing the mid term reliability of the whole network. Trolleys, bad as they were, came behind the collapsing rail viaduct, Schuylkill River erosion, new busses, electrical system issues, garage, shop, and barn renovations, and the revitalization of the nastiest passenger facing facilities. SEPTA is very serious (if pretty incompetent). Modernization just need to come behind safety, viability, and reliability.

N.B. I totally agree in general about historic trolleys.
 
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I think historic trolleys have their place if done right for example San Francisco's F line where they run through a touristy area and become an attraction in themselves in a way that running the modern functional but bland modern trolley might not. The downside is that historic trolleys are more difficult to make accessible, although not impossible, just takes some effort.

My impression of the route 15 situation was a way to restore trolley service when there were not enough K cars to handle it, rather than an attempt to provide a historic trolley line. Somewhat similar to the situation on Boston's Mattapan Line where circumstances such as weight limitations as well as equipment shortages made rebuilt PCCs the way to go.
 
BlackDiamond said:
I think historic trolleys have their place if done right for example San Francisco's F line where they run through a touristy area and become an attraction in themselves in a way that running the modern functional but bland modern trolley might not. The downside is that historic trolleys are more difficult to make accessible, although not impossible, just takes some effort.
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The 15 serves the Philly zoo, and also a casino I believe. So it's not totally irrelevant for tourists. It's just maybe not marketed as well as it could be.

The Wharves area in SF (well, anything beyond the Embarcadero) was also a pretty depressing place back in the day, when it was just endless docks and warehouses and disused military stuff. Then it was revitalized and made cool and became the main tourist attraction of SF. Maybe Philly was hoping for a similar effect? If so, the idea was (maybe) good, but the management and accompanying measures dismal to non-existent.

railiner said:
A “restomod”, a term borrowed from the auto restoration world, has a mechanically modern vehicle, in a restored vintage body, so that it is more than a museum piece, and can be reliably used as a “daily driver”.
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The SEPTA PCC's are les than that. They look pretty authentic on the outside (especially to non railfans), but the inside is not a period restoration or even interpretation (the vandals would soon put an end to that) but is all bright lighting and modern stainless steel and easy-clean surfaces and does not one bit convey the feeling of an authentic period streetcar.
 
cirdan said:
They have been modernized many times over. They use modern trucks, modern drives and modern power trains. There is little "historic" about them apart from the shape.

That said, i do understand that SEPTA are seeking to acquire modern low-floor articulated streetcars from Alstom to replace their entire present fleet: That would be both PCCs and Kawasakis.
Click to expand...

Yeah I was mostly talking about low floor, level boarding and improved digital signage. Stairs suck and I have the same complaint about the old Green line light rail cars in Boston.
 
fairviewroad said:
This social media post has a one-minute video that shows part of the restoration process, as well as what the interiors currently look like.

https://x.com/SEPTANews/status/1801259477573808134
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Looks like they designed a SEPTA logo for these trolleys that channels the old pre SEPTA PTC (Philadelphia Transportation Company.)

I remember the old cream and green PTC trolley cars. They ran right outside the new house we moved into in 1966. SEPTA took over the PTC, but the cream and green trolley cars lasted through my college days. I'm not sure when they repainted them all, as I moved out of town when I was in college.
 
cirdan said:
The SEPTA PCC's are les than that. They look pretty authentic on the outside (especially to non railfans), but the inside is not a period restoration or even interpretation (the vandals would soon put an end to that) but is all bright lighting and modern stainless steel and easy-clean surfaces and does not one bit convey the feeling of an authentic period streetcar.
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I don't think they look all that terrible. The seats obviously are not period appropriate, but they're not that bad IMO. The ceiling and the standee windows give the feel of a PCC. And they did retain the iconic bullseye lights, even if the light output and color might be different.

Did Philadelphia PCC's have crank windows? It looks like the windows are fixed in place, but it would have been nice to keep the cranks just for looks.
 
joelkfla said:
Don't they run through one of the most crime-ridden parts of the city?
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Don't know if that's code for black majority areas. The western end of the route does indeed appear to run through an area that fulfills that criterion and appears disadvantaged and also rather run-down looking, with quite a few dilapidated buildings and graffiti. I spent some time photographing streetcars there and even chatted to some local people who wanted to know what i was doing. I didn't meet any panhandlers or beggars as one might in other areas. I didn't feel in any way unsafe. I guess I wouldn't be wanting to do the same thing at night however. The eastern end of the route appears more mid market and quiet.
 
cirdan said:
Don't know if that's code for black majority areas. The western end of the route does indeed appear to run through an area that fulfills that criterion and appears disadvantaged and also rather run-down looking, with quite a few dilapidated buildings and graffiti. I spent some time photographing streetcars there and even chatted to some local people who wanted to know what i was doing. I didn't meet any panhandlers or beggars as one might in other areas. I didn't feel in any way unsafe. I guess I wouldn't be wanting to do the same thing at night however. The eastern end of the route appears more mid market and quiet.
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I thought I'd read or seen somewhere that there was a lot of drug activity out in the open along part of the route, including some drug-infested parks.
 
Septa9739 said:
No, properly speaking, the 15 passes through Port Richmond, east of Kensington, and then right into Fishtown. The 3 and the 5 are the major north-south routes through Kensington. Frankford and Aramingo Avenues form the boundary. I use the 15 specifically to avoid Kensington.
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OK ... that was the point of confusion.
 
You’re in decent shape between the Zoo and Richmond/Westmoreland (the Eastern end). I would grab the El to Girard, wait for one up to Port Richmond, take it to Indiana, get off, walk over to Thompson, and grab a kielbasa cheesesteak that Gaul’s. Or grab a regular cheesesteak at Joes right under the el and grab the 15 back to the BSL.

Just remember it’s a mixed bus and trolley service right now. SEPTA real-time for the 15 will be your friend. The cream and greens are 23xx’s
 
I saw one recently in the same spot from an NJ Transit train. I plan to wait for cooler weather before spending possibly a long time on a street corner waiting for a trolley. Depending on where I am when I begin my trip, I will probably walk up 63rd from Market to the no. 15 line or ride the Overbrook trolley to the same spot and then ride the first PCC that comes in either direction and stick with it for a complete round trip on the line.
 

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