Service along the FEC

[henryj]

In all honesty, if Florida is going to ever embrace rail travel, they need to get Regional service going. If the state were to invest some money in the infrastructure (like CA, OR, WA and others have), we could see some phenomenal trains running even within the state. If you put CTC in and do track upgrades from PNS-TLH, you could very easily run an in state train from MIA to PNS each day. Although I would be content with just getting any service back to the panhandle/Big Bend.

You will need a major change in politics in TLH. If they killed Sun Rail and loose access to federal dollars that some other state will likely get, I don't see them backing state subsidized Amtrak service. Florida is certainly ripe for expanded passenger train services as well as commuter rail in the major areas to be similar to Tri Rail. If the pols don't get their act together, it will be tough to do anything.

One huge problem in Florida is that you have a large number of retirees from the high-tax states in the northeast that came to low-tax Florida and want to keep it that way, and these people get out and vote at a very high percentage so they have clout out of proportion to their number. The problem is that they want the services that can only come with a high-tax regime. The second problem with these people is they would like to keep the state as third-world as possible otherwise. Therefore, there are major funding problems with such things as the education system as that is in most states a fairly high percentage of the cost of a state government. Besides, why do they care about the local yokels getting a good education or anything else that would work against having a good proportion of low skilled low wage people to do thier work, except of course in things medical. So, why would these people care about education in Florida? Their kids are grown and their grandkids are in other states, and gofers, gardeners and caretakers do not need lots of education. Transportation is somewhere in between. It would be nice if more were spent on transportation facilities, but when it relates to their day to day situation that does not mean a lot to these people.

Thanks to the terrain, Florida would be an easy state in which to set up reasonable speed passenger services between major in-state points. At the least, start with about 3 to 4 a day between Tampa / St. Pete and Miami, Tampa / St. Pete and Orlando on to Jacksonville, and build up from there.

Well George, being retired, I have to agree with them. I have paid and paid and paid taxes all my life so now let someone else carry the burden. Fortunately here in Texas property taxes freeze after you reach 65 and the county goes to zero. The schools give you a 30% discount. As far as I am concerned I think school taxes for retired people should be zero too. Sales taxes I don't care about because I control what I spend. And.......Texas has no state income tax.

 

[Alice]

Well George, being retired, I have to agree with them. I have paid and paid and paid taxes all my life so now let someone else carry the burden. Fortunately here in Texas property taxes freeze after you reach 65 and the county goes to zero. The schools give you a 30% discount. As far as I am concerned I think school taxes for retired people should be zero too. Sales taxes I don't care about because I control what I spend. And.......Texas has no state income tax.

I'm on the other side of this issue. Although retired and child-free, I consider education to be cheaper than police/jail for delinquents. In addition, that crop of kids will be better at taking care of my needs as I age if they are educated; they'll make better decisions when they become voters, county supervisors, or store managers if they are educated; they'll support things I enjoy like local theater and band if they have been exposed to these in school; and in this area, school is where they get values such as keeping our community clean and donating their energy and time to civic projects.

I think government tries to do far more than is reasonable or prudent, but public education is our final chance to indoctrinate every last child as to what it means to be a good citizen. That doesn't mean I vote for every school bond issue (especially as our school board does some pretty idiotic things), but I do donate directly to some causes (a voluntary "tax"), and I'd rather my taxes go to education than lots of other places it goes.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

*looks at HenryJ*

People are purely selfish. This is the fatal flaw with democracies. As Keynes once said, "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone."

 

[gswager]

I recommend to lock it out. It is getting out of control. :angry:

 

[henryj]

*looks at HenryJ*
People are purely selfish. This is the fatal flaw with democracies. As Keynes once said, "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone."

It's not selfish. I paid my 'dues' including thousands in school taxes and I am through paying. I saved to retire, am on fixed income, so let the people that have kids and are still working pay. Those that don't plan or save are just out of luck. I have no obligation to support them.

 

[Ryan]

Of course it is - you're still a member of this society, benefiting from a functional educational system and as such have an obligation to continue to participate in all respects, not just the ones that benefit you personally right now.

As a product of that educational system, I'm even able to use a dictionary to see that selfish means "concerned exclusively with oneself, without regard for others". That sounds exactly like your position. Perhaps you should have planned or saved to continue paying taxes on your fixed income, or you can be out of luck.

If you honestly felt this way, I'm sure that you spent your working life lobbying to pay higher taxes to allow those folks older than you to not have to pay for things that they didn't feel like paying for.

 

[jis]

*Scratching his head with bewilderment*

What on earth does all this have to do with Amtrak or trains beats me.

 

[henryj]

Of course it is - you're still a member of this society, benefiting from a functional educational system and as such have an obligation to continue to participate in all respects, not just the ones that benefit you personally right now.
As a product of that educational system, I'm even able to use a dictionary to see that selfish means "concerned exclusively with oneself, without regard for others". That sounds exactly like your position. Perhaps you should have planned or saved to continue paying taxes on your fixed income, or you can be out of luck.

If you honestly felt this way, I'm sure that you spent your working life lobbying to pay higher taxes to allow those folks older than you to not have to pay for things that they didn't feel like paying for.

You are totally nuts. Please lobby for YOU to pay higher taxes so I can collect my Social Security, Medicare, Pension and all the other stuff I paid for for over 40 years. haha. And when all these baby boomers hit retirement age really lookout because they too will want ALL their benefits that have been promised them by the Federal Government. Can you spell bankruptcy? You obviously are not retired and don't know any retirees. It gives you a whole different attitude. Mainly a who gives a D... one. heheheheh. And to the person that asked what this all has to do with the FEC, just look up a couple of threds where retirees were blamed for Florida's problems. Maybe all those old people are the smart ones. They don't need trains, just lots of Hoverounds.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

And when all these baby boomers hit retirement age really lookout because they too will want ALL their benefits that have been promised them by the Federal Government. Can you spell bankruptcy?

This may be an argument for allowing more immigration of those who are still relatively young, and building more transportation infrastructure to accomodate the population growth that immigration would bring.

 

[Ryan]

Please lobby for YOU to pay higher taxes so I can collect my Social Security, Medicare, Pension and all the other stuff I paid for for over 40 years. haha.

You hold your breath for that one to happen. I pay enough into a system that is going to be broke before I'm ever eligible to receive benefits, yet do so without whining about it on an internet message board.

Thanks for providing a great example of the folks that George was talking about.

 

[AlanB]

Gentlemen, Please!

 

[TampAGS]

You will need a major change in politics in TLH. If they killed Sun Rail and loose access to federal dollars that some other state will likely get, I don't see them backing state subsidized Amtrak service. Florida is certainly ripe for expanded passenger train services as well as commuter rail in the major areas to be similar to Tri Rail. If the pols don't get their act together, it will be tough to do anything.

One huge problem in Florida is that you have a large number of retirees from the high-tax states in the northeast that came to low-tax Florida and want to keep it that way, and these people get out and vote at a very high percentage so they have clout out of proportion to their number. The problem is that they want the services that can only come with a high-tax regime. The second problem with these people is they would like to keep the state as third-world as possible otherwise. Therefore, there are major funding problems with such things as the education system as that is in most states a fairly high percentage of the cost of a state government. Besides, why do they care about the local yokels getting a good education or anything else that would work against having a good proportion of low skilled low wage people to do thier work, except of course in things medical. So, why would these people care about education in Florida? Their kids are grown and their grandkids are in other states, and gofers, gardeners and caretakers do not need lots of education. Transportation is somewhere in between. It would be nice if more were spent on transportation facilities, but when it relates to their day to day situation that does not mean a lot to these people.

Thanks to the terrain, Florida would be an easy state in which to set up reasonable speed passenger services between major in-state points. At the least, start with about 3 to 4 a day between Tampa / St. Pete and Miami, Tampa / St. Pete and Orlando on to Jacksonville, and build up from there.

It's not just the retirees... there's a lot of "local yokels" that are vehemently opposed to any increase in taxes, regardless of how badly in the hole our state may be in terms of meeting the needs of its growing population. Many in the state feel this way, whether it be your good ol' boy, "born-and-raised" Florida Cracker , or your average, I-4 corridor, middle-class suburbanite. Those who live and work here enjoy the fact that there's no state income tax and don't particularly care to see anything of the like ever instituted.

 

Such feelings of opposition have become only more resolute in recent years due to the whopping increases in premiums now being charged by those remaining insurance companies that haven't pulled out of the state altogether. Floridians bemoan the state of our schools, child welfare agencies, etc., and they'll be quick to mandate action in Tallahassee on various issues via fifty-eleven or so state constitutional amendments each year (usually with no thought given to the cost involved by the mandate or how it is to be funded). Nevertheless, year after year the state government remains underfunded and schools remain near rock-bottom when ranked against other states. (And that was the case before the economy tanked... imagine our story today!)

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Actually, the problem stems from people who somehow got the idea that social security was some kind of government financed retirement plan rather then what it was intended to be- a stipend. A small part of a retirement package. You are obligated to pay for everything in our society until the day you're six feet under. That's how it was meant to be. For you. And for me. I don't particularly enjoy paying for things for various reasons. But I understand that I have to, that we all have to.

Now, I believe we were talking about something involving trains or Amtrak or the like?

 

[henryj]

Actually, the problem stems from people who somehow got the idea that social security was some kind of government financed retirement plan rather then what it was intended to be- a stipend. A small part of a retirement package. You are obligated to pay for everything in our society until the day you're six feet under. That's how it was meant to be. For you. And for me. I don't particularly enjoy paying for things for various reasons. But I understand that I have to, that we all have to.
Now, I believe we were talking about something involving trains or Amtrak or the like?

Green I would like have ended this discussion because I think it has nothing to do with trains or even Florida's rail service. But I think it should not end on an erroneous comment on Social Security. If any of you young people want the facts then read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(United_States)

Otherwise, you should not belittle your elders and make erroneous statements about issues of which you have no real knowledge. We all know that we will be 'paying' until the day we die. Even Social Security has been taxable since 1983 so why harp on it. The plus for us curmudgeons is we also get to receive. All this started because George Harris posted this inflamatory statement:

One huge problem in Florida is that you have a large number of retirees from the high-tax states in the northeast that came to low-tax Florida and want to keep it that way, and these people get out and vote at a very high percentage so they have clout out of proportion to their number. The problem is that they want the services that can only come with a high-tax regime. The second problem with these people is they would like to keep the state as third-world as possible otherwise. Therefore, there are major funding problems with such things as the education system as that is in most states a fairly high percentage of the cost of a state government.

With the WWII baby boomers now hitting retirement age there is going to be a lot more of that in all the states so get used to it. Governments are going to have to learn to live within their means. California has always been the trend setter or so it seems. Now the trend they are setting is bankruptcy. They are finding out that promising the 'world' to their constituents and paying for it are too different things. Lets hope they keep the trains and cut the welfare. lol.

 

[jis]

In what could perhaps turn out to be a futile attempt to bring this thread back to topic, let me raise an issue that needs to be resolved before Amtrak can run down the FEC.

The issue is that of how to get the Amtrak train back onto CSX/Tri-Rail line from FEC so that it can access the Amtrak Miami station. There has been an extensive study of this issue of the FEC - CSX connector in the Tr-Rail on FEC DEIS phase 1. You can find a copy of the document here. Beware it is a large (16M) PDF document.

Let me draw your attention to the sections starting at page 106 which discusses the various alternatives for building a connection from FEC to CSX. It would appear that what they call option 2C would be the most viable one and also will suite the purposes of Amtrak, since this would allow Amtrak to access its current West Palm Beach station, after passing through Jupiter, Palm Beach Gardens, Lake Park and Riviera Beach, with zero or more stops in those locations. Actually my inclination would be to leave these smaller places to Tri-Rail to handle with Amtrak stopping only at places like Cocoa/Rockledge, Melbourne, Vero, Ft. Pierce and Jupiter south of Cape Canavaral.

As might be obvious, without resolving this issue it will be difficult to put an Amtrak train whether a part of one of the existing Silvers or a new separate one, on the FEC.

 

[user 1215]

Actually, the problem stems from people who somehow got the idea that social security was some kind of government financed retirement plan rather then what it was intended to be- a stipend. A small part of a retirement package. You are obligated to pay for everything in our society until the day you're six feet under. That's how it was meant to be. For you. And for me. I don't particularly enjoy paying for things for various reasons. But I understand that I have to, that we all have to.
Now, I believe we were talking about something involving trains or Amtrak or the like?

Green I would like have ended this discussion because I think it has nothing to do with trains or even Florida's rail service. But I think it should not end on an erroneous comment on Social Security. If any of you young people want the facts then read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(United_States)

Otherwise, you should not belittle your elders and make erroneous statements about issues of which you have no real knowledge. We all know that we will be 'paying' until the day we die. Even Social Security has been taxable since 1983 so why harp on it. The plus for us curmudgeons is we also get to receive. All this started because George Harris posted this inflamatory statement:

One huge problem in Florida is that you have a large number of retirees from the high-tax states in the northeast that came to low-tax Florida and want to keep it that way, and these people get out and vote at a very high percentage so they have clout out of proportion to their number. The problem is that they want the services that can only come with a high-tax regime. The second problem with these people is they would like to keep the state as third-world as possible otherwise. Therefore, there are major funding problems with such things as the education system as that is in most states a fairly high percentage of the cost of a state government.

With the WWII baby boomers now hitting retirement age there is going to be a lot more of that in all the states so get used to it. Governments are going to have to learn to live within their means. California has always been the trend setter or so it seems. Now the trend they are setting is bankruptcy. They are finding out that promising the 'world' to their constituents and paying for it are too different things. Lets hope they keep the trains and cut the welfare. lol.

I don't want anyone to come out of this thinking that low income-tax states are lower tax burden states whatsoever. I don't know the rules in Florida, but when I last lived there in 1998, sales tax was 8.25%, and I don't have a clue what property tax millages were. I DO know for a fact that property taxes in Texas are HUGE - almost 50% greater per valuation than an equivalent home in Georgia. Sure, that $300,000 home in GA may only cost $200,000 in Texas, but the property taxes you pay would be $3000 in Georgia vs $6000 in Texas (rough - estimates based on personal info, and not any actual numbers). That means in Texas, after you PAY OFF YOUR MORTGAGE, you will still be paying close to $500 a MONTH just in taxes. And that's forever. You can't pay it off. You can freeze it and perhaps get a bit of a discount when your income is limited at retirement, but it's a lot of money. On the otherhand, I pay payroll income taxes in Georgia. If I lose my job, I stop paying taxes and my property tax is still lower.

I know that there are a lot of variables, including how retirement income is taxed, that we cannot possibly get to here, but I do want to just re-emphasize that the Feds, State and Local will get our money any way they know how.

That being said, if Florida's coffers were as bad as it were to sound right now, they would certainly look into a way to increase revenues. This Week at Amtrak actually had a very [politially charged, duh] write up about the Sun Rail. Bickering politics will outlast funding any day of the week. Sigh. It would just be real nice to have an 'express' train from the NEC to Miami that arrived in time to board the cruises and left after they got back in without having to get a hotel room.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

A problem with Tri-Rail handing off and taking Amtrak Pax is baggage. Tri-Rail stops are VERY short duration. Sometimes literally just a few seconds, and they can be literally packed with commuters. Handling much in the way of pax with luggage would gum up the whole works, be dangerous (luggage as obstacles where folks have to rapidly walk in and out the cars) etc., as well as causing delays for Tri-Rail.

It might indeed be a nice idea to consider making the proposed re-start of NOL-Florida service a NOL-MIA train, using FEC down the east Florida coast. Or NOL-JAX for one train, and JAX-MIA (on FEC) a second one, and extend Palmetto south from SAV to JAX, so that the Meteor, the Star ,the NOL-JAX train, the (FEC) JAX-MIA train, and the Palmetto would have a common hub stop at JAX.

The Sun-Rail debacle was a combination of two things. There would be a few more CSX freights running through the Lakeland area, and the Lakeland-area state rep or senator(s) used that as an excuse for getting even with the rest of the Florida legislature and former gov Bush for their killing the FL high-speed rail initiative that would have gone through Lakeland and had been a pet project/dream of the Lakeland folks. Also, there was a deliberately overblown to-do about the indemnification of CSX that would have been part of the deal to get the Deland to Poinciana CSX rail corridor (through Orlando, for the Sun-Rail commuter service) transferred to ownership by the State of Florida. The Lakeland politicians, in my view, did a very credible imitation of the south end of a northbound horse.

 

[battalion51]

Sales tax in Florida is NOT 8.25%. Nor has it been at any point in the 22 years I've lived in the state (I've tasked forced in Maryland for Marriott twice, about 4 months each time). Florida state sales tax has been 6% then ENTIRE time. Some counties and cities have their own taxes that are levied on top of that though. For example in Tallahassee/Leon County my effective tax rate is 7.5%. 6% to the state, the other 1.5% to the county or city (not sure which). I don't know anything about the property tax structure, except it screws over folks who serve in the military. But that said, military families who get stationed in Florida at some point in their journey almost ALWAYS switch their residency, and keep their residency in Florida because the taxes are low. Why do y'all think we also get so many retirees coming to us. It ain't just the sunshine and golf. :lol:

 

[user 1215]

Doh! You're right. 8.25 was Texas. 7.5 in FL.

 

[George Harris]

Doh! You're right. 8.25 was Texas. 7.5 in FL.

And in California, at least in San Francisco city, the sales tax is 9.5%, and the state still has a high income tax and a lot of other high taxes along with it. And they claim to be broke.