OlympianHiawatha
Engineer
A SERVICE PONY!! That is ridiculuous beyond belief and further proof the ADA as it is needs to be scrapped and redesigned with common sense.
Service Pony
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Did you even read any of Alice's posts? She explains quite well how a miniature horse, not a pony, can provide SERVICE to someone.
OlympianHiawatha
Engineer
I'm sure my pet Monitor Lizard or Emperor Scorpions can as well, but Dogs seem to work all around and it should be limited to that. Be it on a train or other public place, most folks accept and understand what Service Dogs are all about.
Cho Cho Charlie
Engineer
I know that seeing eye dogs, gets a ticket and even their own seat-check.
Cho Cho Charlie
Engineer
I have to wonder if a horse, of any size, can be "house broken"?
Sorry if this offends anyone, but IMHO, any service animal that is out-in-public, needs to not de-foul the area, especially an interior area (like a train or station).
I am about to acquire a service dog, a hearing dog for the deaf, and have researched the issue of service animals quite a bit, and here's my take on the issue.
It seems that it does happen, but it is very rare that the owner of a service animal becomes belligerent. Too much is at stake. If the NC Hosts story is accurate, then the Amtrak staff in my opinion did exactly the right thing in allowing the passenger aboard and then filing a report on what happened. To do otherwise would risk a lawsuit.
Someone ought to speak with the horse's owner and explain that the size and rarity of the animal may cause problems that really ought to be anticipated well ahead of time. That business about the lift could have been avoided had the owner spoken with station personnel a day or two before boarding the train. Frankly, I don't understand why he didn't. Owners of genuine service animals are trained to expect this kind of thing and be ready to deal with it.
From my reading of the issue, it seems that when a service animal is challenged, either justly or unjustly, the best thing for the owner to do is to try to explain to everyone's satisfaction what his rights under the ADA are—and if there is resistance, to withdraw and report the incident to the Justice Department's ADA division (or a state or county entity that deals with such matters). No point in getting angry. Calm education is always better.
There are still misconceptions about service animals. There is nothing in the ADA (or in state laws that I know of) that requires them to be trained in an officially recognized facility, or to have any kind of certification. Neither service animals nor wheelchairs need separate tickets to ride on trains or in airplanes. Animals do not get their own seats but must remain on the floor. (From the Amtrak website: "A service animal must sit under the passenger's seat or at his or her feet. Service animals are not allowed to sit in the aisle or on seats.")
One thing I am still trying to find out is whether a service dog will be permitted to sleep on the bed in a roomette—there's no room under the bed. Official Amtrak rules are they are to be on the floor, not on a seat, and that is workable in coach but hardly in a roomette. One ticket agent said the bed is OK. One sleeper attendant said he didn't think so. I'd like to find this out before I travel next.
Could I sleep on the top bunk while the dog sleeps on the floor? I'm too old and creaky to get up there.
The specific dog, by the way, will very likely be terrier-sized.
It seems that it does happen, but it is very rare that the owner of a service animal becomes belligerent. Too much is at stake. If the NC Hosts story is accurate, then the Amtrak staff in my opinion did exactly the right thing in allowing the passenger aboard and then filing a report on what happened. To do otherwise would risk a lawsuit.
Someone ought to speak with the horse's owner and explain that the size and rarity of the animal may cause problems that really ought to be anticipated well ahead of time. That business about the lift could have been avoided had the owner spoken with station personnel a day or two before boarding the train. Frankly, I don't understand why he didn't. Owners of genuine service animals are trained to expect this kind of thing and be ready to deal with it.
From my reading of the issue, it seems that when a service animal is challenged, either justly or unjustly, the best thing for the owner to do is to try to explain to everyone's satisfaction what his rights under the ADA are—and if there is resistance, to withdraw and report the incident to the Justice Department's ADA division (or a state or county entity that deals with such matters). No point in getting angry. Calm education is always better.
There are still misconceptions about service animals. There is nothing in the ADA (or in state laws that I know of) that requires them to be trained in an officially recognized facility, or to have any kind of certification. Neither service animals nor wheelchairs need separate tickets to ride on trains or in airplanes. Animals do not get their own seats but must remain on the floor. (From the Amtrak website: "A service animal must sit under the passenger's seat or at his or her feet. Service animals are not allowed to sit in the aisle or on seats.")
One thing I am still trying to find out is whether a service dog will be permitted to sleep on the bed in a roomette—there's no room under the bed. Official Amtrak rules are they are to be on the floor, not on a seat, and that is workable in coach but hardly in a roomette. One ticket agent said the bed is OK. One sleeper attendant said he didn't think so. I'd like to find this out before I travel next.
Could I sleep on the top bunk while the dog sleeps on the floor? I'm too old and creaky to get up there.
The specific dog, by the way, will very likely be terrier-sized.
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Read the link in Alice's post. It explains the regulations regarding service dogs and when/where service horses are permitted.
And, no, "scrapping" the ADA is not necessary, that's an absurd suggestion. Are there particular regulations that ought to be reconsidered - probably. But by no means should the law be scrapped completely. It is entirely possible to modify the law (or regulations associated with it) without completely scrapping it and trying to start from scratch.
And, no, "scrapping" the ADA is not necessary, that's an absurd suggestion. Are there particular regulations that ought to be reconsidered - probably. But by no means should the law be scrapped completely. It is entirely possible to modify the law (or regulations associated with it) without completely scrapping it and trying to start from scratch.
Thirdrail7
Engineer
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When you get the chain for your bear, please send him or her to the quiet car. I'm in need of assistance!
No wonder we don't read any stories about "Service Cats!"
We serve them, they don't serve us! LOL
And I believe Alice said she had to make a Reservation for her Wheel Chair, so in efffect, Wheel Chairs do require a "ticket!"
We serve them, they don't serve us! LOL
And I believe Alice said she had to make a Reservation for her Wheel Chair, so in efffect, Wheel Chairs do require a "ticket!"
As far as I know, no U.S. common carrier requires paid tickets for wheelchairs on trains or airplanes. The ADA forbids it. Checking some airline web sites, however, does yield language requesting wheelchair users to let the airline know ahead of time so they can arrange space to stow the chairs. This would be especially important for powered wheelchairs, less so for folding manual chairs. I think it's simply good sense for the wheelchair user to let the carrier know a few days ahead.
I plan to let Amtrak know of my service dog (although I don't strictly have to) ahead of time so the agent can note that on the manifest and give attendants and conductors a decent heads-up.
A lady I met last summer who had a Great Dane service dog said she does this. She has epilepsy and the dog not only lets her know in advance of a seizure but also lies atop her, paws on her shoulders, during a seizure so she doesn't thrash around and hurt herself. The dog is so big (140 pounds) that Amtrak asked her not to take it to the dining car (within its rights, for safety trumps anything else) but keep it in her bedroom. She bought the dog its own bedroom—it is that big. Mine will probably be a rat terrier or something like that.
I plan to let Amtrak know of my service dog (although I don't strictly have to) ahead of time so the agent can note that on the manifest and give attendants and conductors a decent heads-up.
A lady I met last summer who had a Great Dane service dog said she does this. She has epilepsy and the dog not only lets her know in advance of a seizure but also lies atop her, paws on her shoulders, during a seizure so she doesn't thrash around and hurt herself. The dog is so big (140 pounds) that Amtrak asked her not to take it to the dining car (within its rights, for safety trumps anything else) but keep it in her bedroom. She bought the dog its own bedroom—it is that big. Mine will probably be a rat terrier or something like that.
Ryan
Court Jester
Yeah, screw those disabled people for not dealing with their disabilities in a way that meets with your preconceived notions of how they should.
http://www.guidehorse.com/ is a good place to learn about miniature service horses and what they can do for people with disabilities.
Reservations are not required but are advised for wheelchair access space because the number of spaces is limited. So a passenger in a wheeelchair space without a reservation will have to give it up to a passenger with an access space reservation if they run out of access space. An access ticket guarantees the space.
Service animals don't have to be ticketed, most often they are not, but if they are that is a good way of giving the crew a heads up about the animal.
The editor is giving me a problem. But to reiterate only the passenger needs a ticket. The passenger can show up with a ticket only for themselves and not the animal or without a ticket for the access space. Some wheelchair passenger don't use the space. They fold up the chair and sit in a regular seat. Others ride in the chair.
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FormerOBS
Conductor
Strictly speaking, the animal does not get a ticket or reservation. The passenger does. But when the res. office sets up the passenger's reservation, they arrange for a "Transportation Notice" to be put on the crew's manifest to notify them of the animal and any special consideration that may be required. So I guess that could be interpreted as a "reservation" for the animal. Strictly speaking, it isn't a reservation.
I'm happy to be corrected if my info is incorrect or outdared.
Tom
I'm happy to be corrected if my info is incorrect or outdared.
Tom
My wheelchair gets its own ticket but it is free. It just tells the conductor to save it space since each car can carry a limited number of wheelchairs.
At Amtrak, I think you'll have the opportunity to give them info about the dog when you get the disabled discount.
As to service animals on the furniture. Of course they shouldn't take up a seat in coach. In sleeper, I think if you take a cloth to protect the upholstery from dander and such for the next passenger, you'd be okay. Sounds like a reasonable accommodation to me anyway. Alternatively, they'd pretty much have to give you the H-room.
Not usually but some ticket agents issue the animal a ticket. Don't know why but they do. First one I ever saw was issued to "Rover". I kid you not. They don't charge for the ticket. Most of the time a service animal is not ticked. Just noted on the PNR.
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IMHO
There should be some sort of identification process to show that this is a legitimate service animal. The reason for the service animal should not be anyone else's concern.
The only pertinent question Amtrak should ask is how to accommodate the animal.
Issuing a (no charge) ticket to a service animal is an incredibly good idea as having contact information in the event the animal became separated from the person, or had to be accounted for in an emergency incident.
There should be some sort of identification process to show that this is a legitimate service animal. The reason for the service animal should not be anyone else's concern.
The only pertinent question Amtrak should ask is how to accommodate the animal.
Issuing a (no charge) ticket to a service animal is an incredibly good idea as having contact information in the event the animal became separated from the person, or had to be accounted for in an emergency incident.
I think Karl is right that there should be some sort of certification (with identification) for a service animal, although the ADA specifically says it is not required. The ADA specifically says that service animals do not need to display any identification that they are service animals. This is so that people with disabilities aren't visibly "branded" that way.
Some effective system of certification and identification would solve SO many problems.
Service dog companies do provide special vests and leashes as well as ID cards for owners and their animals—but there are a great number of crooked companies that sell such things on the Internet to all comers so that Mrs. Gotrocks can claim her darling Fluffy is a service dog.
The only way to tell if a dog is really a service dog is to observe it. It must be well behaved and obey its owner instantly, and sit quietly and meekly at the owner's feet.
A larger problem is who's going to do the certifying. The Justice Department doesn't want to get involved in that, because there are so many philosophies dealing with animal training. This might be possible on the state level. Florida has already made attempting to pass off a pet as a trained service animal a felony, but I don't know whether any cases have been brought.
Some effective system of certification and identification would solve SO many problems.
Service dog companies do provide special vests and leashes as well as ID cards for owners and their animals—but there are a great number of crooked companies that sell such things on the Internet to all comers so that Mrs. Gotrocks can claim her darling Fluffy is a service dog.
The only way to tell if a dog is really a service dog is to observe it. It must be well behaved and obey its owner instantly, and sit quietly and meekly at the owner's feet.
A larger problem is who's going to do the certifying. The Justice Department doesn't want to get involved in that, because there are so many philosophies dealing with animal training. This might be possible on the state level. Florida has already made attempting to pass off a pet as a trained service animal a felony, but I don't know whether any cases have been brought.
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Ryan
Court Jester
Totally agree. Maybe the letter 'A' for Animal. Nice and red so that it's clearly visible.
To make sure that someone doesn't illicitly use the animal, maybe they can wear something too. Maybe a star? Everyone likes stars.
To make sure that someone doesn't illicitly use the animal, maybe they can wear something too. Maybe a star? Everyone likes stars.
Peter KG6LSE
Lead Service Attendant
wanna pay for more bureaucracy? DO YOU .
Here is the problem with everything that the government does Amtrak is great example of this. Whenever you put a committee in place to do anything it takes more time and it costs a lot of money. I'm going to bet that the burden on society of a fake service animal is far less than the burden on society than the burden on society to create a administration whose sole purpose is to certify assisted animals.
Everything is money in the end. Oftentimes those who are handicapped to the point where they need a service animal are not exactly what I would call well off. People who are deaf blind or who have seizures don't exactly get to have good paying jobs. They already are stretched pretty then. This may sound like a generalization but unfortunately a lease from my experience has been very close to the truth. Take those who have autism. Their average employment rate is 10%. 5% have full-time jobs. The average pay for that job is $16 an hour. This may seem like quite a lot to you but it really is not in today's society.
Who is going to pay for this service animal administration.
Who is going to pay the burden of all the staff that is required to micromanage this issue. Are you going to schlep the cost onto already very expensive service animal. I would dare anybody on this forum to make $16 an hour from day one in their working career and try to save enough money to buy a 10 grand service animal.
It's not a luxury item people, it's necessary for this person to even be a functioning part of society.
I do agree I have seen gross abuse of service animal rules. And I do think there should be severe penalties. A year in jail should suffice. But at no point in time should there be undue burden on those who are legitimately needing the service animal.
Why should the suffering suffer more than they already are
see where I Am getting at.
what we have now is a safe balange.
the ADA has it right as its Gonna get .
Unless you wanna pay more. then yes you can get it better.
but at the rate that dogs cost its crazy. 10 grand .........
do you have 10 grand to just toss away.
chances are if you need a service animal you had your handicap a long time.
you allreaddy have NO extra saveings as SSDI bans that . . who is gonna foot the bill.
Peter
Here is the problem with everything that the government does Amtrak is great example of this. Whenever you put a committee in place to do anything it takes more time and it costs a lot of money. I'm going to bet that the burden on society of a fake service animal is far less than the burden on society than the burden on society to create a administration whose sole purpose is to certify assisted animals.
Everything is money in the end. Oftentimes those who are handicapped to the point where they need a service animal are not exactly what I would call well off. People who are deaf blind or who have seizures don't exactly get to have good paying jobs. They already are stretched pretty then. This may sound like a generalization but unfortunately a lease from my experience has been very close to the truth. Take those who have autism. Their average employment rate is 10%. 5% have full-time jobs. The average pay for that job is $16 an hour. This may seem like quite a lot to you but it really is not in today's society.
Who is going to pay for this service animal administration.
Who is going to pay the burden of all the staff that is required to micromanage this issue. Are you going to schlep the cost onto already very expensive service animal. I would dare anybody on this forum to make $16 an hour from day one in their working career and try to save enough money to buy a 10 grand service animal.
It's not a luxury item people, it's necessary for this person to even be a functioning part of society.
I do agree I have seen gross abuse of service animal rules. And I do think there should be severe penalties. A year in jail should suffice. But at no point in time should there be undue burden on those who are legitimately needing the service animal.
Why should the suffering suffer more than they already are
see where I Am getting at.
what we have now is a safe balange.
the ADA has it right as its Gonna get .
Unless you wanna pay more. then yes you can get it better.
but at the rate that dogs cost its crazy. 10 grand .........
do you have 10 grand to just toss away.
chances are if you need a service animal you had your handicap a long time.
you allreaddy have NO extra saveings as SSDI bans that . . who is gonna foot the bill.
Peter
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Oh my god... :lol:
- Joined
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I sometimes consider my doctor's nurse a real horse's ass. And sure enough, she takes my blood pressure. When she tried to rush though it, I told her "Whoa! Slow down!" I always get a kick out of talking to her. Bring her a carrot but she is still ornery.
Her name is Ms. Ed.
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Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
I'm all for curtailing ADA abuse but this has to be the most irrationally punitive solution I've ever heard of. What is it that drives a supposedly reasonable culture to turn even minor infractions into severe life altering punishments? It's like the patients are in charge of the asylum. Technically it's a second degree misdemeanor rather than a felony, but sixty days in jail is likely to screw up your life plenty.
DA is right, Florida has made service animal abuse a second degree misdemeanor, not a felony. $500 fine and sixty days in the slammer. Okay by me. I do think that the firing squad would be too punitive, although I wouldn't mind giving the miscreant a last cigarette.
SarahZ, I think Ryan was just indulging in hyperbolic irony. Right, Ryan? I understand your point. People with disabilities should not be branded. It should be a matter of voluntary self-identification in certain circumstances.
Peter, I hear you (so to speak), but nearly all service animals are provided for free to those who need them. They're financed by donations from the public. The ultimate cost of a service dog is about $20,000 to $25,000 over its life because of recurrent yearly training, which requires trainers to go to the owners' homes. Vet bills are extra. These dogs are so valuable that some training organizations retain ownership of the dog over its working life, in order to make sure that the animal's training is maintained, and yield that ownership only when the dog is retired from its job.
SarahZ, I think Ryan was just indulging in hyperbolic irony. Right, Ryan? I understand your point. People with disabilities should not be branded. It should be a matter of voluntary self-identification in certain circumstances.
Peter, I hear you (so to speak), but nearly all service animals are provided for free to those who need them. They're financed by donations from the public. The ultimate cost of a service dog is about $20,000 to $25,000 over its life because of recurrent yearly training, which requires trainers to go to the owners' homes. Vet bills are extra. These dogs are so valuable that some training organizations retain ownership of the dog over its working life, in order to make sure that the animal's training is maintained, and yield that ownership only when the dog is retired from its job.
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