Service type terminology and speed definitions discussion

[cirdan]

Chiltern’s predecessor the Great Central depended on running powers over the Metropolitan for its original access to London from the north via Aylesbury.

Yes, it was a long and sticky story of old feuds and rivalries.

 

[cirdan]

Taking a 1 1/2 hour train to Boston from Worcester really takes a toll on what’s available to any working person.

Which begs the question of why people chose to live so far away from where they work.

Affordability of housing may be an issue for some, but if these are the BMW-owning class, I don't think that is the main problem.

To me it seems that urban planning, or the lack of it, is to blame. Put in good housing, decent schools etc into more accessible locations and people will move there in droves. Yes, I know gentrification is a bad word for some. But we need to be realistic.

 

[JontyMort]

Yes, it was a long and sticky story of old feuds and rivalries.

Not to mention insider dealing. Sir Edward Watkin was Chairman of both the Met and the GC - and the South-Eastern and the Channel Tunnel company, so it’s easy to see the optimistic lines on which his mind was running.

 

[Bonser]

I was biting my tongue when typing that as I knew it was incorrect but couldn't immediately come up with a non convoluted term to collectively describe the connecting rail systems. Maybe urban rail or rapid transit might have been a more appropriate choice of words. I expect the journalists authoring the above piece similarly struggled to find a term everybody would understand and hence incorrectly and misleadingly came up with commuter rail, which obviously railfans incorrectly assumed to imply the future Tri Rail service(?)

It's funny how the term "light rail" replace trolley. Trolley is more accurate, shorter and has historical antecedents. Why has it disappeared?

 

[MARC Rider]

It's funny how the term "light rail" replace trolley. Trolley is more accurate, shorter and has historical antecedents. Why has it disappeared?

It hasn't disappeared in Philadelphia. Even the suburban lines (69th St. to Media and Sharon Hill) are still called "trolleys" even though the current cars actually use pantographs to pick up the electricity from the wire.

 

[jis]

I came across the term Trolley in the context of street running rail transport only after visiting the US. Before that I thought such things were called Trams, as they still are elsewhere. Trolley was used in the context of Trolley Buses even outside the US back then.

Even today the term Tram is more prevalent than Trolley outside the US, even as the Trams evolve into so called Tram-Trains. And of course, progressively fewer and fewer systems use Trolleys as time goes on anyway too.

 

[BlackDiamond]

The Metropolitan’s main line northwards out of Baker Street would definitely be classified as commuter rather than rapid transit. It got rich on stimulating housing development near its line in what was then - early last century - green fields. Even cut back to Amersham it’s a fair way - but a fun route with some long stretches of four-track main.
Chiltern’s predecessor the Great Central depended on running powers over the Metropolitan for its original access to London from the north via Aylesbury.

I guess it is something of a hybrid, rapid transit up to Harrow on the Hill, where it is basically the express version of the Jubilee Line service, and Commuter North of there.

It's funny how the term "light rail" replace trolley. Trolley is more accurate, shorter and has historical antecedents. Why has it disappeared?

I think the idea was to present "Light Rail" as a more modern version of the streetcar, at a time when streetcars/trolleys/trams were considered old fashioned and obsolete. Basically a marketing strategy. Really modern light rail is no different from systems such as the former Red Arrow lines west of Philadelphia or the Shaker Heights lines in Cleveland which have been around for a long time.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Which begs the question of why people chose to live so far away from where they work.

Affordability of housing may be an issue for some, but if these are the BMW-owning class, I don't think that is the main problem.

To me it seems that urban planning, or the lack of it, is to blame. Put in good housing, decent schools etc into more accessible locations and people will move there in droves. Yes, I know gentrification is a bad word for some. But we need to be realistic.

Nearly everyone in our society, whether they can afford new BMWs or not, can afford to drive. Apparently 90% of households in the US have a motor vehicle available. While this might be lower in large cities with good transit, like Boston, I would suspect that in the suburbs, car ownership among all class is the same as it is in the rest of the country. Nearly all the commuters from the suburbs can afford to drive. Many of them prefer to take the train, enough to keep the trains full, because they prefer not to drive. I think this is mainly because of the hassle of big city traffic and costs of parking. I know something of this, because I speak from personal experience, though it involves Washington, D.C., not Boston.

My initial statement separated the BMW owning class from the “commuting from Worcester because they need to live there” class.

I guess my point is that if you have a super nice car (or even just an average car), and guaranteed parking (either payed or free) you tend towards drive even with traffic and gas. The commuter rail just won’t appeal to you for any number of reasons, but mostly cause it’s so slow, and surprisingly expensive.

Now, if you have access to the red, blue, orange or green lines, that’s a whole different story, because those lines function almost as S bahn type systems, and are exceedingly fast and useful.

The commuter rail has the gargantuan, yet slow feel of an intercity train trip, yet you’re only traveling short distances.

 

[BlackDiamond]

My initial statement separated the BMW owning class from the “commuting from Worcester because they need to live there” class.

I guess my point is that if you have a super nice car (or even just an average car), and guaranteed parking (either payed or free) you tend towards drive even with traffic and gas. The commuter rail just won’t appeal to you for any number of reasons, but mostly cause it’s so slow, and surprisingly expensive.

Now, if you have access to the red, blue, orange or green lines, that’s a whole different story, because those lines function almost as S bahn type systems, and are exceedingly fast and useful.

The commuter rail has the gargantuan, yet slow feel of an intercity train trip, yet you’re only traveling short distances.

There is also the factor that a lot of commuting is now suburb to suburb. When I lived in Central MA (West of Boston) with a job in Bedford, a Northern suburb I looked into using transit. It would have required commuter rail to the city, then Red Line to Alewife then a bus that only ran 2 times a day. Needless to say this would be unworkable. Fortunately I was able to work from home most days which reduced the need to sit on the US Route 3 parking lot 2 times a day

 

[Anderson]

My initial statement separated the BMW owning class from the “commuting from Worcester because they need to live there” class.

I guess my point is that if you have a super nice car (or even just an average car), and guaranteed parking (either payed or free) you tend towards drive even with traffic and gas. The commuter rail just won’t appeal to you for any number of reasons, but mostly cause it’s so slow, and surprisingly expensive.

Now, if you have access to the red, blue, orange or green lines, that’s a whole different story, because those lines function almost as S bahn type systems, and are exceedingly fast and useful.

The commuter rail has the gargantuan, yet slow feel of an intercity train trip, yet you’re only traveling short distances.

This point is true, though I'll add in the question of frequency and "how close does the train get me when I'm downtown". There's an obvious difference between "I take the train to somewhere two blocks from my office" and "I take the train downtown, still need two transfers to get there, and the train only runs a few times a day so if I have to work late I'm screwed".

 

[west point]

Boy definitions get murkey. You have trackless trollys that persist especially in Atlanta area although long gone. Then you have the Cincinnatti street cars that were 2 trollys powered with the rails not used for return. And of course the Cascade tunnel that used 2 phase AC overhead wire. In San Francisco you had 4 streetcar line and electric bus operations. sometimes the electric buses shared the positive wire on that street.

Now no electric bus operations are called as far as I know trackless trollys.

 

[joelkfla]

Boy definitions get murkey. You have trackless trollys that persist especially in Atlanta area although long gone. Then you have the Cincinnatti street cars that were 2 trollys powered with the rails not used for return. And of course the Cascade tunnel that used 2 phase AC overhead wire. In San Francisco you had 4 streetcar line and electric bus operations. sometimes the electric buses shared the positive wire on that street.

Now no electric bus operations are called as far as I know trackless trollys.

SEPTA calls them trackless trolleys.


SF MUNI calls them trolley coaches.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

After reading this thread I think I'm more confused than ever.

 

[JontyMort]

I guess it is something of a hybrid, rapid transit up to Harrow on the Hill, where it is basically the express version of the Jubilee Line service, and Commuter North of there.

I was actually thinking of the Met’s original offering 100 or more years ago. These days you’re right of course. That said, the morning peak sees trains that run non-stop from Moor Park to Harrow, and from Harrow to Finchley Road (i.e. not stopping even at Wembley Park). In the evening they all seem to stop at Wembley. Those runs used to be the best chance of clocking the old A60 stock at close to their maximum permitted 70 mph.

When I worked in London in the very early 80s we had a colleague who alway had to dash for the “last fast Amersham” when it was his turn to buy the drinks.